How big of a gap is there between the Raptors and Magic?

[TGM]

On paper it looks like the two teams are similar, but the key difference is at the PG position. Orlando has 3 PGs, Suggs can defend and score, Cole can score and not that different from Quickley, but is a much bigger and stronger guard. Fultz is another big guard with a strong penetration game. I don't even think Orlando's PG position is that great, but ours is worst for sure.

PG is the most important position in basketball, just look at the top teams and they all pretty much have a tier 1 PG or strong PG combo. Either someone who is super good defensively or someone that can run the offense.

Boston - Derrick White

Cavs - Garland
Indy - Hali
Bucks - Lillard
76ers - Maxey and Melton
Knicks - Brunson
Denver - Murray
Mavs - Kyrie and Doncic
Wolves - Conley (Might be old, but he is reliable as they come)
OKC - Giddey and Shai
Clippers - Harden and Westbrook

The teams that have been eliminated - Miami (Rozier). Lakers (Russell), Pelicans (CJ), Suns (No PG).

I could be wrong, but IQ I don't think is tier 1 PG potential. He is like a Rozier type to me. The next few years I think the deficiency will be more and more obviosuly, which is why getting someone like Reed Sheppard is key.

[Indeed]

We don't even have a 1st option. This is the reason we were better when Siakam was with us, at least someone can create at end game. Barnes is definitely not at that level.

Can you even say Orlando has one? 54% TS% is not good in 2024.

You clearly need to go check how many 2nd year 1st options there have been in the history of the nba. Then you need to go check how all past stars have performed in their first playoff series. Then you need to understand Orlando doesn't have much other offensive help other than Wagner who fluctuates game to game.

They are built on defense and that's not something you're going to get from individual statistics. Again, they are not OKC in terms of being the next potential perennial championship contenders but they are slowly building towards that.

And they can also acquire another borderline 1st option with their assets. With most of them in their rookie contracts, they may have some cap space.

Meanwhile, we neither have a borderline 1st option to begin with nor good enough defense (should I say one of the worst defense?). Maybe the hope is 2025 1st overall pick (the draft looks good to me)

[ciueli]

Basically this.

I loved watching Orlando this season. They play hard. They are very physical & they are a defense first type of team. Exactly the type of basketball that I enjoy watching.

They are coached to win & they are coached very well. That may be the biggest difference. Our guys don't play defense.

If Darko doesn't get them playing solid defnse this season, I will be off the Darko train. Coaching change needed.

We just don't have the defensive personnel to do what Orlando is doing though. We have two good defensive players on this team, Jak and Scottie, when that's the case team defence is going to be bad.

Sure. But the defense was also very poor when Siakam, OG & Precious were on the team (with Scottie and Jakob). It was the first thing I noticed when the season started.

Right now we have Jakob, Barnes, Brown, Ochai & Quickley who are above average defenders. RJ is probably average.

Then after that, things drop off a cliff...

Hopefully they find some good defensive talent in the draft & Darko & his staff up their defensive game next season. It would be good to have a strong defensive assistant at least.

Not true. Before the OG trade the Raptors were middle of the pack, 16th-17th in defensive efficiency, in fact they were 8th at the end of November. And in 2022-2023 the team finished 12th in Defensive Efficiency, that's miles away from 26th in Defensive Efficiency they finished with this year, it's hard to argue the team didn't get worse on defence by making those trades.

As for Brown, Ochai, and Quickley being above average defenders, I will just say I completely disagree about Ochai and Quickley, they are both average defenders at best. It can be argued Brown is an above average defender, but those numbers declined a lot this year playing for two bad defensive teams, so it's not like he's some huge difference maker on that end, the truth is probably in the middle where he is a "good" defender when playing for good teams (Denver, Brooklyn pre-KD trade) and an average or even bad defender when playing for bad defensive teams (Indiana and the Raptors). In any case, there's no guarantee Brown is back with the team this season, there's a good chance his team option is declined to save money.

[Tha Cynic]

They correctly executed Masai's 6'8 or higher plan with a bunch of guys who can defend. The Raptors have switched more to the guard model now and can't defend. The Magic are more of a playoff team than the Raptors are. I think we're pretty far off. I prefer that Magic team mold and the type of players they target (similar to what the Raptors used to do but didn't execute since they were still busy winning for over a decade). The Magic also sucked for years so they have a lot more young talent accumulated over several years.

It will be hard to accumulate that many players who are that tall with that much skill.

[Tha Cynic]

I think Franz Wagner is a lot better than Barrett. Barrett played well since he got here but I have to see him do it for an entire year to discount his entire body of work in NY. 55% FG Barrett and 42% FG Barrett are completely different players.

I think we need to see a full season of Barrett. He has been an analytics nightmare for most of his career and half a season this season didn't change that though, it is a good sign.

Can he be a guy who contributes to winning? The good thing is, he's an extremely hard worker and all Knicks fans seemed to love his personality and is still very young. He has a lot to build on.

[TheGeneral99]

They correctly executed Masai's 6'8 or higher plan with a bunch of guys who can defend. The Raptors have switched more to the guard model now and can't defend. The Magic are more of a playoff team than the Raptors are. I think we're pretty far off. I prefer that Magic team mold and the type of players they target (similar to what the Raptors used to do but didn't execute since they were still busy winning for over a decade). The Magic also sucked for years so they have a lot more young talent accumulated over several years.

It will be hard to accumulate that many players who are that tall with that much skill.

I think the 6'8 plan was a bit overstated...Masai drafted guys like Flynn, Johnson, and Harris in recent years who are far from the 6'8 prototype. Masai loved Fred and signed Schroeder who are both undersized.

Obviously in today's league you want those tall, long rangy athletic guys who can switch and guard 1 through 5, but of course they need to be able to shoot.

[Tha Cynic]

They correctly executed Masai's 6'8 or higher plan with a bunch of guys who can defend. The Raptors have switched more to the guard model now and can't defend. The Magic are more of a playoff team than the Raptors are. I think we're pretty far off. I prefer that Magic team mold and the type of players they target (similar to what the Raptors used to do but didn't execute since they were still busy winning for over a decade). The Magic also sucked for years so they have a lot more young talent accumulated over several years.

It will be hard to accumulate that many players who are that tall with that much skill.

I think the 6'8 plan was a bit overstated...Masai drafted guys like Flynn, Johnson, and Harris in recent years who are far from the 6'8 prototype. Masai loved Fred and signed Schroeder who are both undersized.

Obviously in today's league you want those tall, long rangy athletic guys who can switch and guard 1 through 5, but of course they need to be able to shoot.

I don't think the 6'8 plan means just blanket 6'8 guys. The key is getting a bunch of key prices who are taller and part of your main core who can switch and supplementing then with guard play which is very much needed too. You need to get the core build of your team right and then also the supplement pieces.

An example of this for those who watch this is the Leafs. The Leafs have built a team full of a bunch of skilled guys who are elite offensively. They have tried over and over again to supplement them with big hitters who play more of a tough brand of hockey. It hasn't worked because their main guys are still pansies. Masai's issue is they had completely ignored guard play after the championship which is still a very important skill in the NBA.

Jokic has been great but Murray's play is what puts them over the top. LeBron James was great, but Kyrie Irving and Wade had to play the way they did for him to win championships.

[Reeko]

What you're describing is exactly why I want Sarr.

Stretch big who can guard the perimeter and defend well inside.

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

[LBJKB24MJ23]

need the bench mob again. when you have a strong bench, the team should be pretty decent.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

What you're describing is exactly why I want Sarr.

Stretch big who can guard the perimeter and defend well inside.

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

how does his shooting look like to you - does he have a good touch and is it a form that succeed at the next level with good coaching?

[nikster]

ORL has built what Masai was trying to build after the title team. A bunch of 6'9, versatile wings / jumbo wings who can switch everything and defend at a high level. But as you can see, there are offensive limitations with that type of strategy when you have don't have a superstar level player. It will be interesting to see how ORL moves forward. They have a lot of good pieces, but will probably need to consolidate 2-3 pieces for a natural bucket getter eventually.

The problem for Orlando now is this winning will create expectations of payoffs for players on the roster. They can negotiate extensions this summer with Wagner x2, Suggs, and Isaac. How much these guys get paid will eat into future room.

Yeah a lot of franchises get in this position with a promising young team. The hard part is gonna be building around them now

[Reeko]

What you're describing is exactly why I want Sarr.

Stretch big who can guard the perimeter and defend well inside.

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

how does his shooting look like to you - does he have a good touch and is it a form that succeed at the next level with good coaching?

I haven't studied it that in depth, and I'm not a shooting expert, but it doesn't seem to be broken. Still, there's plenty of guys with seemingly nice shooting forms that still can't hit a shot consistently from 3. Calling him a stretch big at this stage is premature in my opinion. He's a center with the game of a small forward on offense, and I'm not particularly sold on him tbh.

[MEDIC]

]Not true. Before the OG trade the Raptors were middle of the pack, 16th-17th in defensive efficiency, in fact they were 8th at the end of November. And in 2022-2023 the team finished 12th in Defensive Efficiency, that's miles away from 26th in Defensive Efficiency they finished with this year, it's hard to argue the team didn't get worse on defence by making those trades.

So this team was worse defensively under Darko than they were under Nurse.

A team with Schroder, OG, Barnes, Siakam & Poeltl should not be middle of the pack defensively. They should bare minimum top 10 or they are underacheiving on that side of the court.

[YogurtProducer]

They correctly executed Masai's 6'8 or higher plan with a bunch of guys who can defend. The Raptors have switched more to the guard model now and can't defend. The Magic are more of a playoff team than the Raptors are. I think we're pretty far off. I prefer that Magic team mold and the type of players they target (similar to what the Raptors used to do but didn't execute since they were still busy winning for over a decade). The Magic also sucked for years so they have a lot more young talent accumulated over several years.

It will be hard to accumulate that many players who are that tall with that much skill.

I would not say they correctly executed anything yet.

They have won 47 games. We won 48 games in 2022. They need to take a leap here again (which is 100% doable but far from guaranteed).

I think the Magic really lack high end players. I dont think Paolo is a true franchise building guy (similar to Siakam, or Barnes) and after that no one I would confidently bet make an all-star game. Obv. Franz has the best shot, but I am not entirely confident he has that "jump" in him.

The Magic have about 2 years to figure it out here before they to have hard cap decisions to make. The one downside of a young roster is you can all but guarantee their next deal is bunped up X% for the "potential" tax.

[YogurtProducer]

]Not true. Before the OG trade the Raptors were middle of the pack, 16th-17th in defensive efficiency, in fact they were 8th at the end of November. And in 2022-2023 the team finished 12th in Defensive Efficiency, that's miles away from 26th in Defensive Efficiency they finished with this year, it's hard to argue the team didn't get worse on defence by making those trades.

So this team was worse defensively under Darko than they were under Nurse.

A team with Schroder, OG, Barnes, Siakam & Poeltl should not be middle of the pack defensively. They should bare minimum top 10 or they are underacheiving on that side of the court.

OG and Siaakam dogged it here for half a season defensively. OG in NYK is not the OG we had here for the first half season. Siakam to how he is defending in the POs is not close to what we saw all year.

[MoneyBall]

What you're describing is exactly why I want Sarr.

Stretch big who can guard the perimeter and defend well inside.

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

Wemby shot under 30% from 3.

[C_Money]

I can’t believe some people want us to go back to Vision 6’9 again after it literally just failed.

Yeah sure that 2019 Championship squad was elite defensively but we were also elite on offence. We finished top 5 in both.

[Reeko]

What you're describing is exactly why I want Sarr.

Stretch big who can guard the perimeter and defend well inside.

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

Wemby shot under 30% from 3.

And he shot 32.5% from 3 this season. What's your point?

[Tha Cynic]

They correctly executed Masai's 6'8 or higher plan with a bunch of guys who can defend. The Raptors have switched more to the guard model now and can't defend. The Magic are more of a playoff team than the Raptors are. I think we're pretty far off. I prefer that Magic team mold and the type of players they target (similar to what the Raptors used to do but didn't execute since they were still busy winning for over a decade). The Magic also sucked for years so they have a lot more young talent accumulated over several years.

It will be hard to accumulate that many players who are that tall with that much skill.

I would not say they correctly executed anything yet.

They have won 47 games. We won 48 games in 2022. They need to take a leap here again (which is 100% doable but far from guaranteed).

I think the Magic really lack high end players. I dont think Paolo is a true franchise building guy (similar to Siakam, or Barnes) and after that no one I would confidently bet make an all-star game. Obv. Franz has the best shot, but I am not entirely confident he has that "jump" in him.

The Magic have about 2 years to figure it out here before they to have hard cap decisions to make. The one downside of a young roster is you can all but guarantee their next deal is bunped up X% for the "potential" tax.

While I agree with most of this they do have a young team with great talent overall. There are only about 5 legit stars like that in the league. They have enough talent to be a Boston type of team - a team with no superstar but a bunch of very good players who can play defense. Ultimately, I don't think they'll ever be a championship team, but a lot of that is luck in being able to land a superstar.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

How is he a stretch big when he didn't even shoot 30% from 3?

how does his shooting look like to you - does he have a good touch and is it a form that succeed at the next level with good coaching?

I haven't studied it that in depth, and I'm not a shooting expert, but it doesn't seem to be broken. Still, there's plenty of guys with seemingly nice shooting forms that still can't hit a shot consistently from 3. Calling him a stretch big at this stage is premature in my opinion. He's a center with the game of a small forward on offense, and I'm not particularly sold on him tbh.

ofc, if you were sold on it he would be guaranteed #1 overall in this draft