How big of a gap is there between the Raptors and Magic?

[pilkoids]

If Franz isn't careful he might end up with a Keith Van Horn type of game/career

[OakleyDokely]

Magic should try and trade up for Rob Dillingham. They're one of the few teams who'd be able to hide him defensively and he'd provide a lot of what their lacking offensively.

[Scase]

Are they undervalued and hard to find? I disagree. Look at Derrick White and the contract that’s headed his way. Jrue never bounced around and was only traded from Philly in the name of the process. These players are only undervalued until their value is known and they unlock the 3 pointer.

Some of the top defensive guys in the league have 1) been traded and 2) are on / about to be some of the fullest value contracts in the league. White, Jrue, Smart, OG, Caruso, Brooks, Bridges, Thybull. That’s every non-big all defensive player of the last two years. Not a single one on their original team, most were had for not that massive of a price, and all are or will be fully paid.

I think what he's saying is that they are undervalued proportionate to their impact on winning, not that they are paid low salaries.

The Trae example is a good one, dude is getting a max contract, but would you rather have his max contract, or pay white what he's likely to get, or Caruso, etc.

For sure I’d rather Caruso. My point is, when it’s so early in the team building process, it hampers you. You have to pay them big money yet you still need your 2 offensive max guys because they rarely give you real shot creation on offense. And relative to their contracts, offensive shot creators are just higher value. Trae is a bad example because he’s a historically bad defender, historically bad offensive players like Thybulle don’t even crack rotations sometimes, which again is another sign that offense is much more important and it’s what you need to focus on finding.

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.

Suggs and IQ to me are equal and two sides of the same coin. Thing is, I have a lot more faith teaching an all nba level defender to become an average shooter, than a good shooter becoming an average to above average defender.

It is not a stretch by any measure to say that Suggs should make an all defence team this year. And being top 15 in the league is a bigger achievement than being an above average 3pt shooter. And again, we factor in age, experience, salary, and contract control and you see the scales tip.

Scottie and Paolo look to be the same argument as suggs vs IQ, except age/salary etc all that doesn't apply. I still give Scottie the edge (might be homerism tbf), but I see his 2 way play as being a better skill long term than Paolos offensive game. Scottie reads the game a million times better both defensively and offensively, Paolo is just a better scorer.

Gradey I can't comment on as it's way too early to say, and last year was a 50/50 mix of bad and good, I don't think I will decide on his outlook until the end of next season or the one after. 2-3 years is a fair assessment timeframe.

I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

[KrazyP]

The gap is significant. The Magic have already established themselves as a solid team flirting with 50 wins and they came close to advancing to the 2nd round.....this is unusual for a team thats so young.

Their core of Banchero (21), Franz (22), Suggs (22) compliment each other very well and have only started to scratch the surface of what they're going to become. Their cap situation looks good and they own all their future picks. Looking forward, I dont think theres a team in the East outside of the Celtics thats in better shape.

I feel happy for their fans because they've basically been rebuilding ever since Dwight Howard left 12 years ago.

[JB7]

I think what he's saying is that they are undervalued proportionate to their impact on winning, not that they are paid low salaries.

The Trae example is a good one, dude is getting a max contract, but would you rather have his max contract, or pay white what he's likely to get, or Caruso, etc.

For sure I’d rather Caruso. My point is, when it’s so early in the team building process, it hampers you. You have to pay them big money yet you still need your 2 offensive max guys because they rarely give you real shot creation on offense. And relative to their contracts, offensive shot creators are just higher value. Trae is a bad example because he’s a historically bad defender, historically bad offensive players like Thybulle don’t even crack rotations sometimes, which again is another sign that offense is much more important and it’s what you need to focus on finding.

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.

Suggs and IQ to me are equal and two sides of the same coin. Thing is, I have a lot more faith teaching an all nba level defender to become an average shooter, than a good shooter becoming an average to above average defender.

It is not a stretch by any measure to say that Suggs should make an all defence team this year. And being top 15 in the league is a bigger achievement than being an above average 3pt shooter. And again, we factor in age, experience, salary, and contract control and you see the scales tip.

Scottie and Paolo look to be the same argument as suggs vs IQ, except age/salary etc all that doesn't apply. I still give Scottie the edge (might be homerism tbf), but I see his 2 way play as being a better skill long term than Paolos offensive game. Scottie reads the game a million times better both defensively and offensively, Paolo is just a better scorer.

Gradey I can't comment on as it's way too early to say, and last year was a 50/50 mix of bad and good, I don't think I will decide on his outlook until the end of next season or the one after. 2-3 years is a fair assessment timeframe.

I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

[JB7]

The gap is significant. The Magic have already established themselves as a solid team flirting with 50 wins and they came close to advancing to the 2nd round.....this is unusual for a team thats so young.

Their core of Banchero (21), Franz (22), Suggs (22) compliment each other very well and have only started to scratch the surface of what they're going to become. Their cap situation looks good and they own all their future picks. Looking forward, I dont think theres a team in the East outside of the Celtics thats in better shape.

I feel happy for their fans because they've basically been rebuilding ever since Dwight Howard left 12 years ago.

Pump the brakes a bit. This is the problem right now for the Magic. Everyone is getting all excited about them now, because they had a good season and are young.

Problem is, they caught teams off guard this year. Next year teams will be more prepared for them.

Also, while they were the 5th seed, they had the same record as the 6th and 7th seeds, and were only 1 win better than the 8th seed.

They are looking like the Raps team from a couple of seasons ago, that got to the 5th seed. Yes the Magic are younger than that Raps team, but they suffer from the same problem - lack of clutch scoring.

They could easily fall back in the standings next season.

[ForeverTFC]

For sure I’d rather Caruso. My point is, when it’s so early in the team building process, it hampers you. You have to pay them big money yet you still need your 2 offensive max guys because they rarely give you real shot creation on offense. And relative to their contracts, offensive shot creators are just higher value. Trae is a bad example because he’s a historically bad defender, historically bad offensive players like Thybulle don’t even crack rotations sometimes, which again is another sign that offense is much more important and it’s what you need to focus on finding.

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

Honest question: assuming Mitchell agrees to re-sign in Orlando, do the Magic say yes or no to a Mitchell for Suggs/Franz trade?

I probably do it. You get to pair a top 10 shot creator with Paolo. So much easier to build around them as a core than around Paolo/Franz/Suggs.

[Scase]

For sure I’d rather Caruso. My point is, when it’s so early in the team building process, it hampers you. You have to pay them big money yet you still need your 2 offensive max guys because they rarely give you real shot creation on offense. And relative to their contracts, offensive shot creators are just higher value. Trae is a bad example because he’s a historically bad defender, historically bad offensive players like Thybulle don’t even crack rotations sometimes, which again is another sign that offense is much more important and it’s what you need to focus on finding.

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

IQ is a good 3pt shooter, no doubt there. Gradey has played 60 career games lets relax on saying what he is based off like 30 games at the end of the season. And RJ was a career 34% 3p shooter in 4.5 years with the knicks, he shot 39% here in 32 games, again relax.

Yes we have the potential for better offence, I am not disputing that. But we in no way shape or form have a good offensive team. We are a mid offensive team, there is nothing controversial about that and if anything it's a rather liberal description. From the 17th of jan when Siakam no longer played any games for us, up until the 1st of march when Scottie went out, our offence was 22nd in the league. Orlando was 22nd over the course of the entire season.

Are we better than 22nd, I mean maybe. But to say we are nowhere comparable to the Magic offence? That's absurd. I don't even think it's fair to compare them, they have a team that is ahead of us in their rebuild. Will we be better than 22nd in a couple years, well yeah, probably. But let's not act like we're going to improve and become a top 10 offence while they languish as a terrible offensive team. We arent the only team in the league that is allowed to improve.

Sure maybe they have to move Franz and/or Suggs. But guess what, we'd have to maybe move RJ and/or IQ to improve our defence. Like why do you think that our problems are immune from the same solutions as theirs? Our defence is horrible, it was bad with Siakam/Jak/OG/Scottie, and we have gotten significantly worse from a roster standpoint.

If they have to trade players to fix their offence, it stands to reason we will have to do the same to fix our defence. Like jesus, stop ignoring that we have massive holes that need to be fixed too.

[JB7]

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.



That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

Honest question: assuming Mitchell agrees to re-sign in Orlando, do the Magic say yes or no to a Mitchell for Suggs/Franz trade?

I probably do it. You get to pair a top 10 shot creator with Paolo. So much easier to build around them as a core than around Paolo/Franz/Suggs.

If Mitchell were willing to re-sign, I think Orlando does that in a heart beat. I don't know that the Cav's would like that deal, unless they were thinking about flipping those pieces for other players.

[JB7]

Thing is, suggs isn't going to have the bag thrown at him, and that's kinda the point. He's likely going to see a contract similar to what we expect IQ to get, and that is fantastic for them. But yeah, if they throw like 35/yr at him, that's nuts haha.



That's a good point, but I am willing to give a core of a 21/22/22 year old players a bit more leeway than the OG/Siaka/FVV core that was like 27/27/24. They have a bunch of picks and capspace to help with the scoring problem. GTJ, Malik Monk are just 2 UFAs that are on the table, and then you've got the endless possibilities from trades.

I disagree on the current core being able to all get a bucket. Scottie still has no go to move so he's iffy, RJ can usually get you a bucket at the rim, but sagging off of him takes that away, and IQ is great above the break, but his breakdown abilities need lots of work.

We are mid offensively, and bad defensively. They are mid offensively and fantastic defensively.

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

IQ is a good 3pt shooter, no doubt there. Gradey has played 60 career games lets relax on saying what he is based off like 30 games at the end of the season. And RJ was a career 34% 3p shooter in 4.5 years with the knicks, he shot 39% here in 32 games, again relax.

Yes we have the potential for better offence, I am not disputing that. But we in no way shape or form have a good offensive team. We are a mid offensive team, there is nothing controversial about that and if anything it's a rather liberal description. From the 17th of jan when Siakam no longer played any games for us, up until the 1st of march when Scottie went out, our offence was 22nd in the league. Orlando was 22nd over the course of the entire season.

Are we better than 22nd, I mean maybe. But to say we are nowhere comparable to the Magic offence? That's absurd. I don't even think it's fair to compare them, they have a team that is ahead of us in their rebuild. Will we be better than 22nd in a couple years, well yeah, probably. But let's not act like we're going to improve and become a top 10 offence while they languish as a terrible offensive team. We arent the only team in the league that is allowed to improve.

Sure maybe they have to move Franz and/or Suggs. But guess what, we'd have to maybe move RJ and/or IQ to improve our defence. Like why do you think that our problems are immune from the same solutions as theirs? Our defence is horrible, it was bad with Siakam/Jak/OG/Scottie, and we have gotten significantly worse from a roster standpoint.

If they have to trade players to fix their offence, it stands to reason we will have to do the same to fix our defence. Like jesus, stop ignoring that we have massive holes that need to be fixed too.

I think the Raps just have better balance on offense, which should lead to better production and an move up in the rating, as they get more playing time together.

I think RJ's production in Toronto could also be a product of a better fit in this offensive scheme, how he is used, then how he was used on the Knicks. So there is the possibility he could maintain his production.

Gradey was brought in because of his shooting in college. Once he better adjusted to the NBA, his shooting numbers climbed. I would expect further growth as his strength improves.

It is easier to supplement some defensive players around good offensive players, than it is to turn defensive players into offensive ones - a lesson learned from previous Raps experience. The Raps D is horrible, and no doubt part of that is coaching. So let's see how it develops next season. Also, I would expect individual improvement on D from IQ, RJ, Gradey, and even Scottie.

The problem for the Magic is Suggs is not turning into Kyrie. Suggs has had a very productive year, and there is probably more growth, but not that much. He is a great defensive player, but part of the reason the team struggles so much on O, is he cannot generate much for the team from the PG position (poor handle). And while Franz is good, I think he is bordering on overrated. While Pascal was clearly overrated by Raps fans, I feel like the same is happening with Franz by some media personalities.

In trying to assess growth, you also need to factor in the starting point. Right now, the media think the Raps are crap, so any upward movement will be seen as growth. Whereas the Magic are starting from a much higher point, where expectations are much higher, and meeting those expectations becomes more difficult. So they could easily fall back a bit next year, and that could help reset expectations.

[Scase]

IQ, RJ & Gradey all shot near 40% from 3 (in Gradey's case, once you factor out the start of the season where he was adjusting to the NBA). They all seem like guys that can knockdown an open shot. But beyond that, they also can move the ball to the open player. Scottie's 3 pt shooting is improving, but his strength offensively has been scoring inside, especially late in games, when the team needs buckets. His strength and athleticism allows him to maneuver around most defenders in the post. But what to like in the Raps O is the variety of ways they can score now, from outside/mid range shooting from IQ & Gradey, to Scottie's interior presence, and then RJ who can put pressure on the rim with his drives, opening up the shooters.

There is no way the Raps offense is anywhere comparable to the Magic's. And while the Magic's core are still young, with possible growth, I don't think Suggs or Franz are making a leap into offensive stars.

For the Raps, it is about continuing to develop their offence, while trying to build a competent D.

For the Magic, it might come down to a trade, where Franz and Suggs potentially get moved together for a core piece that can carry the offense more, because adding a GTJ, Monk or even Klay to the Magic will not solve the Magic's problems on O, just like adding GTJ to the Raps old core didn't solve the fundamental problem that the 3 core players (Pascal, OG & Fred) couldn't produce in the clutch.

IQ is a good 3pt shooter, no doubt there. Gradey has played 60 career games lets relax on saying what he is based off like 30 games at the end of the season. And RJ was a career 34% 3p shooter in 4.5 years with the knicks, he shot 39% here in 32 games, again relax.

Yes we have the potential for better offence, I am not disputing that. But we in no way shape or form have a good offensive team. We are a mid offensive team, there is nothing controversial about that and if anything it's a rather liberal description. From the 17th of jan when Siakam no longer played any games for us, up until the 1st of march when Scottie went out, our offence was 22nd in the league. Orlando was 22nd over the course of the entire season.

Are we better than 22nd, I mean maybe. But to say we are nowhere comparable to the Magic offence? That's absurd. I don't even think it's fair to compare them, they have a team that is ahead of us in their rebuild. Will we be better than 22nd in a couple years, well yeah, probably. But let's not act like we're going to improve and become a top 10 offence while they languish as a terrible offensive team. We arent the only team in the league that is allowed to improve.

Sure maybe they have to move Franz and/or Suggs. But guess what, we'd have to maybe move RJ and/or IQ to improve our defence. Like why do you think that our problems are immune from the same solutions as theirs? Our defence is horrible, it was bad with Siakam/Jak/OG/Scottie, and we have gotten significantly worse from a roster standpoint.

If they have to trade players to fix their offence, it stands to reason we will have to do the same to fix our defence. Like jesus, stop ignoring that we have massive holes that need to be fixed too.

I think the Raps just have better balance on offense, which should lead to better production and an move up in the rating, as they get more playing time together.

I think RJ's production in Toronto could also be a product of a better fit in this offensive scheme, how he is used, then how he was used on the Knicks. So there is the possibility he could maintain his production.

Gradey was brought in because of his shooting in college. Once he better adjusted to the NBA, his shooting numbers climbed. I would expect further growth as his strength improves.

It is easier to supplement some defensive players around good offensive players, than it is to turn defensive players into offensive ones - a lesson learned from previous Raps experience. The Raps D is horrible, and no doubt part of that is coaching. So let's see how it develops next season. Also, I would expect individual improvement on D from IQ, RJ, Gradey, and even Scottie.

The problem for the Magic is Suggs is not turning into Kyrie. Suggs has had a very productive year, and there is probably more growth, but not that much. He is a great defensive player, but part of the reason the team struggles so much on O, is he cannot generate much for the team from the PG position (poor handle). And while Franz is good, I think he is bordering on overrated. While Pascal was clearly overrated by Raps fans, I feel like the same is happening with Franz by some media personalities.

In trying to assess growth, you also need to factor in the starting point. Right now, the media think the Raps are crap, so any upward movement will be seen as growth. Whereas the Magic are starting from a much higher point, where expectations are much higher, and meeting those expectations becomes more difficult. So they could easily fall back a bit next year, and that could help reset expectations.

You're also expecting huge leaps in production and growth from players that are going into their 6th and 5th years, vs the growth seen in players in their 3rd years. Suggs went from 22% 3p% in year one, to 40% this year, on higher volume.

No offensive scheme is turning RJ from a below average 3pt shooter, to one of the best in the NBA. It ain't happening. He had a season in the past where he shot 39% and then immediately fell. I fully expect our players to get better, they are still young, but do I expect them to improve more than players multiple years younger than them, and with much less experience? God no, that goes against pretty much all known history of player development.


The expectations and their starting points from the media don't mean a damn thing. We're talking about actual, tangible production, not the perception of players.

Again, I'm not even high on the Magic, I just find it laughable for people to think replicating them right now is a walk in the park, and it's just a matter of time before we get there. Unless everyone thinks that weltman was only good where he was here, I have some bad new for you, there is nothing to suggest they will get worse. They have a good FO for once, and they are doing well, it is absurd to assume they are just going to continue to develop, draft, and make trades and get worse. While we do the same thing and get better?

What is this logic?

[islandboy53]

Because we have a mid core, and are trying to build out from it instead of going for more talent. Cept they are better at it since they arent trading futures for mid tier players whilst being in the lotto.

They actually have league leading defence, and we're mediocre on a good day.

Oh yeah, they also have all their picks, and cap space. So they are doing what we should have done.

There seems to be a consensus that Orlando has more depth, and better defence, and I'm sure we'll see improvements in both areas this year. Draft assets are very similar. They have all their 1sts plus Denver's next year, and are picking 18th this year. We have the 19th pick this year, and have as many 1sts in total as they do. They have up to $58 million in cap space if they ditch Isaac, Fulz, Mo Wagner, etc, but who are they going to spend it on, keeping in mind they have 2 very large extensions coming up?

With all of that said, I don't see their current trajectory as really any better than the Raptors, and we should see that by this time next year.

You don't think a team that has a core that was 21, 22, and 22 years old, that just managed to have the second best defence in the NBA, has more cap space, has more depth, and more picks than us......doesn't have a better trajectory?

Sometimes, I honest to god have no idea how some of you come to these conclusions. It is baffling.

It is true that Orlando's core is younger, and that they have more potential cap space, whether they use it or not. They have more 2nd round picks, but we have as many 1sts as they do. Nba.com has them with the 3rd overall defensive rating. At the same time, they had the 22nd offensive rating, just ahead of the Raptors at 24th. It's important to point out that Orlando's group has been together for 3 years, while Toronto's hasn't even had 3 months, meaning we're very likely to see more growth from them over the season than from Orlando. Banchero's great, and Suggs is an excellent defender, but, other than that, I like our guys and their potential more.

[OakleyDokely]

Poeltl+Barnes+RJ+Quickley only played 234 mins together all season (they had a +10.8 rating in those minutes). It's almost impossible to even know what their potential is as a group since they barely played together.

[MiamiSPX]

I care more about the gap between us and the Celtics.

[Scase]

There seems to be a consensus that Orlando has more depth, and better defence, and I'm sure we'll see improvements in both areas this year. Draft assets are very similar. They have all their 1sts plus Denver's next year, and are picking 18th this year. We have the 19th pick this year, and have as many 1sts in total as they do. They have up to $58 million in cap space if they ditch Isaac, Fulz, Mo Wagner, etc, but who are they going to spend it on, keeping in mind they have 2 very large extensions coming up?

With all of that said, I don't see their current trajectory as really any better than the Raptors, and we should see that by this time next year.

You don't think a team that has a core that was 21, 22, and 22 years old, that just managed to have the second best defence in the NBA, has more cap space, has more depth, and more picks than us......doesn't have a better trajectory?

Sometimes, I honest to god have no idea how some of you come to these conclusions. It is baffling.

It is true that Orlando's core is younger, and that they have more potential cap space, whether they use it or not. They have more 2nd round picks, but we have as many 1sts as they do. Nba.com has them with the 3rd overall defensive rating. At the same time, they had the 22nd offensive rating, just ahead of the Raptors at 24th. It's important to point out that Orlando's group has been together for 3 years, while Toronto's hasn't even had 3 months, meaning we're very likely to see more growth from them over the season than from Orlando. Banchero's great, and Suggs is an excellent defender, but, other than that, I like our guys and their potential more.

We have 6 picks from now until 2027. They have 10. 10 > 6.

Their defensive rating is 110.8, the celtics are 110.6, so yeah sure they are technically 3rd. They are functionally tied for 2nd.

They have been together for 2 years, Paolo isn't even in his 3rd year in the league. Yes, that is longer than the Raps, which is why I expect our offence to be better in the future. I however do not in any way, shape, or form, expect us to have one of the best defences in the league in 2 years.

All their players are younger and less experienced, they have more potential. Whether or not it is realized is a different story. But I will always take younger similarly talented players, over older ones. If you think we have higher potential, you are fully entitled to that opinion. I just don't see any reason to ignore younger players, that are playing as well, or better than older players and see that as less potential, just doesn't make sense.

[KrazyP]

The gap is significant. The Magic have already established themselves as a solid team flirting with 50 wins and they came close to advancing to the 2nd round.....this is unusual for a team thats so young.

Their core of Banchero (21), Franz (22), Suggs (22) compliment each other very well and have only started to scratch the surface of what they're going to become. Their cap situation looks good and they own all their future picks. Looking forward, I dont think theres a team in the East outside of the Celtics thats in better shape.

I feel happy for their fans because they've basically been rebuilding ever since Dwight Howard left 12 years ago.

Pump the brakes a bit. This is the problem right now for the Magic. Everyone is getting all excited about them now, because they had a good season and are young.

Problem is, they caught teams off guard this year. Next year teams will be more prepared for them.

Also, while they were the 5th seed, they had the same record as the 6th and 7th seeds, and were only 1 win better than the 8th seed.

They are looking like the Raps team from a couple of seasons ago, that got to the 5th seed. Yes the Magic are younger than that Raps team, but they suffer from the same problem - lack of clutch scoring.

They could easily fall back in the standings next season.

People are excited about them for good reason. They have a solid, young, balanced core thats already performing well and they have years of organic growth in front of them. They also have a nice cap situation that is going to allow them to keep the team together for quite some time without much difficulty.

You are correct in that the current seeds 2-8 in the East are pretty even.....given that, the team with the youngest core and best cap situation among them is probably the best bet to have the most success moving forward. No guarantees obviously with any team as a lot can happen in the NBA especially with injuries.

Comparing them to the Raptors team from a couple years ago makes no sense as that team was older, capped out and had major holes at both C and in the back court. That Raps team was pretty maxed out whereas this Magic team is young and on the rise.

[Merit]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

I’m not fooled by RJ’s numbers. I think of him as a big guard as opposed to a wing. In that context he makes a world of sense. Of course we would trade RJ for Franz because our team needs a shooting wing. And yes, RJ would be an ideal 6th man, but only if we got a better 2 than him and another big wing. If we end up with Moody/Wiggins? Okay - he can come off the bench. But he’d be anchoring the bench units offensively. If RJ develops a 3 - the crux of my whole argument - then I take RJ over Franz for the storyline and the contract.

This was IQ’s first year playing full time PG. Maybe this is an over correction on my part because of how I previously valued shot creation, but I feel pretty good about choosing IQ over Suggs for now. If Suggs gets the reins and develops further offensively I’d like him more. Defensively he’s solid - zero arguments there. Glad we picked Scottie over him though.

Gradey has time to develop.

[Merit]

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.

Suggs and IQ to me are equal and two sides of the same coin. Thing is, I have a lot more faith teaching an all nba level defender to become an average shooter, than a good shooter becoming an average to above average defender.

It is not a stretch by any measure to say that Suggs should make an all defence team this year. And being top 15 in the league is a bigger achievement than being an above average 3pt shooter. And again, we factor in age, experience, salary, and contract control and you see the scales tip.

Scottie and Paolo look to be the same argument as suggs vs IQ, except age/salary etc all that doesn't apply. I still give Scottie the edge (might be homerism tbf), but I see his 2 way play as being a better skill long term than Paolos offensive game. Scottie reads the game a million times better both defensively and offensively, Paolo is just a better scorer.

Gradey I can't comment on as it's way too early to say, and last year was a 50/50 mix of bad and good, I don't think I will decide on his outlook until the end of next season or the one after. 2-3 years is a fair assessment timeframe.

I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

This is the crux of my argument. Previously I underrated shot creation and offensive play. Even with our current system we need more bucket getters. IMO we are one solid wing away or a wing and a backup PG depending on what we do at the draft.

PG IQ
SG RJ
SF ? Wiggins?
PF Scottie
C Poeltl

Provided we have depth - which we definitely will after this offseason - I feel we surprise. If we lose and are trash, I’m good with a full tank.

[Merit]

The Magic will eventually package a combination of Wagner, Suggs, Black, Carter Jr etc and picks for a star.

Or they will need a huge jump offensively from Banchero or a few one of the other guys.

Their halfcourt game gave me scary flashbacks of our team from a couple years ago. Just a struggle to create anything positve.

I’m still in to poach Isaac for spare parts to facilitate a trade. Isaac for Boucher and McDaniels? Count me in.

[dkb964]

3-4 years difference before we win that many games. We have no depth.

Masai needs to get lucky in the draft... and also turn Trent (sign and trade) into something useful... then we COULD be a play in team next year...

Why would GTJ have any value to another team in a sign and trade? He is a shooter off the bench. I can understand a team like the Magic for example maybe having interest but there would be no reason for them to send the Raptors an asset. They have cap room. Many other teams as well. GTJ is walking for nothing.