How big of a gap is there between the Raptors and Magic?

[JB7]

I think this is the key here. Orlando needs Paolo as their first option because he doesn’t provide enough in other areas to justify having him in a lesser role.

With Scottie, he most likely is not going to blossom into a 1st option but he does so many other things that he would likely be a lot more useful in that role anyway.

Marcus Smart to many, is wildly overrated. The Celtics failed with him as their 3rd best player. If Suggs is a Marcus Smart and he's paired with a 1st option that posts a 54% TS% then that team has a very low ceiling.

The problem is Franz is much better than RJ. So although we have the edge with IQ/Suggs, RJ is so far behind Franz in terms of impact.

Is Franz that much better, or even better than RJ?

Looking at RJ's numbers on the Raps, they all seemed to be better than Franz's numbers. RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. The numbers where Franz is better are some of the advanced stats (WS, BPM, VORP) that would all be influenced as well by the Magic's overall team performance.

Yeah that’s true but I think Franz is a much better defensive player than RJ. But you’re right, being on a good team can influence a lot of advanced stats. RJ has never had good advanced stats though and he’s been on some good Knicks teams.

I don't think Thibs and the Knicks were a good fit for RJ in terms of his offense, which depressed his offensive numbers. But I agree, defensively he has a lot to improve on, and is behind Franz.

[Los_29]

Is Franz that much better, or even better than RJ?

Looking at RJ's numbers on the Raps, they all seemed to be better than Franz's numbers. RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. The numbers where Franz is better are some of the advanced stats (WS, BPM, VORP) that would all be influenced as well by the Magic's overall team performance.

Yeah that’s true but I think Franz is a much better defensive player than RJ. But you’re right, being on a good team can influence a lot of advanced stats. RJ has never had good advanced stats though and he’s been on some good Knicks teams.

I don't think Thibs and the Knicks were a good fit for RJ in terms of his offense, which depressed his offensive numbers. But I agree, defensively he has a lot to improve on, and is behind Franz.

Franz had some mediocre advanced stats prior to this year and his TS% was actually down compared to years past. He might’ve benefited from the team he played on. Maybe the gap isn’t as wide as I thought.

[ForeverTFC]

I could be very wrong here but I’m just not buying this Orlando team. I don’t buy Paolo as the first option and I don’t buy Franz as the second option. Suggs will net out as Marcus Smart. Issac’s game may never scale, and Howard and Black are complete unknowns.

So to me, the gap is irrelevant, because if we’re going to rebuild, we need to set up for a higher ceiling. One blessing for us is that even if we are locked into Barnes as the guy to build around, we are not locked into him as our first option.

I think this is the key here. Orlando needs Paolo as their first option because he doesn’t provide enough in other areas to justify having him in a lesser role.

With Scottie, he most likely is not going to blossom into a 1st option but he does so many other things that he would likely be a lot more useful in that role anyway.

Marcus Smart to many, is wildly overrated. The Celtics failed with him as their 3rd best player. If Suggs is a Marcus Smart and he's paired with a 1st option that posts a 54% TS% then that team has a very low ceiling.

The problem is Franz is much better than RJ. So although we have the edge with IQ/Suggs, RJ is so far behind Franz in terms of impact.

Is Franz that much better, or even better than RJ?

Looking at RJ's numbers on the Raps, they all seemed to be better than Franz's numbers. RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. The numbers where Franz is better are some of the advanced stats (WS, BPM, VORP) that would all be influenced as well by the Magic's overall team performance.

Franz is just a much better defender, and while he shot the 3 really bad this year, he does have 2 years of >.350 from behind the line that you can buy into. RJ’s issue is that he isn’t quick enough to match up against guards and he’s not big enough to match up against wings. You really can’t fix this kind of limitation.

[HKBOY]

I am taking Raptors RJ over Franz but ideally both of them should only be your 3rd best player if you are truly a contender.

[Merit]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

[Merit]

Their depth and their defense is what makes them better than us. The defense though is the key. They have plus defenders at almost every position.

The Raptors do not have a lot of either at this point and it's going to take time to get those players. Drafting a defensive player like for example Ryan Dunn isn't going to change our fortunes next year. Pinning your hopes that a rookie changes everything is asinine. It's going to take a few years before we get to that 45+ win threshold.

I’m of two minds on this. On one hand, it would be nice to win, and our young guys I feel have several levels to go still.

On the other hand, being horrible next season is what’s best for our future.

A lot hinges on whether we keep our pick this season. If we do, we have the opportunity to accelerate the rebuild.

I think we want to the Raptors to return to winning again but it's going to take time. Even if they keep the pick it may shorten that return by one year it may not, we don't know that. At this point we should be concerned about asset accumulation in picks and depth and see what works.

Agreed on it being asset accumulation time. Let’s leverage whatever we have to get us ahead. Sounds like that’s the plan with the “singles” comment made by Bobby.

I agree that there’s still developmental runway as well. Although I’d like to see a turn towards winning next season.

[HumbleRen]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

[DG88]

I’m of two minds on this. On one hand, it would be nice to win, and our young guys I feel have several levels to go still.

On the other hand, being horrible next season is what’s best for our future.

A lot hinges on whether we keep our pick this season. If we do, we have the opportunity to accelerate the rebuild.

I think we want to the Raptors to return to winning again but it's going to take time. Even if they keep the pick it may shorten that return by one year it may not, we don't know that. At this point we should be concerned about asset accumulation in picks and depth and see what works.

Agreed on it being asset accumulation time. Let’s leverage whatever we have to get us ahead. Sounds like that’s the plan with the “singles” comment made by Bobby.

I agree that there’s still developmental runway as well. Although I’d like to see a turn towards winning next season.

Considering Bobby saying it won't be 3-5 moves more like 10-12 and Masai talking about the length of rebuilding. At minimum it's going to be a 2 year wait. My expectations coming into 24/25 season is low 30s in wins. Until the defense really improves we aren't going to make headway. Whoever we get from this draft won't drastically change our fortunes and the FA class this year doesn't have a difference maker. Like we both agreed just accumulate assets and add depth to fill out the roster. Focus on developing our players and let the chips fall where they may next season.

[YogurtProducer]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

Franz is not 100% better than RJ.

Franz 20/5/4 57.5TS%
RJ 22/6/4 61.5TS%

Neither are lockdown amazing defenders.

RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. Franz is currently in that "rookie contract honeymoon stage" - RJ is in that "2nd contract so now you are overrated stage".

[ConSarnit]

I don’t think either is the bonafide #1 option on a real contender but no matter how you feel about Paolo, the fact that he averaged 27/8/4 in his first playoff series as a 21 year old is very impressive.

So while Scottie might be a better #2 option than Paolo, the first step you want in your rebuild is for your guy to be able to perform as the #1 option on a playoff team. Paolo has done that, the jury is still out on Scottie.

As for the IQ thing, that’s fair but I personally think it’s easier to find an IQ type player than it is to find a Suggs type player. It’s so hard to find first team defensive perimeter caliber players. If IQ can consistently be a 24/4/6 guy then yeah, IQ over Suggs for sure.

For sure, Banchero has proven more as a number 1 than Scottie has even hinted at. And to your point, finding that number 1 is probably the single most important step in building a contender. But I do think that sometimes you can fall into a trap with the below the median number 1 guy and it becomes really hard to come out of that if you build your roster around him. One of the most underrated parts of the team Masai built that ultimately won the championship was that it was never built around DeRozan. We all knew he wasn’t the guy. So I guess that’s my glass half full painting of the picture, but should recognize that Paola is a lot closer to being a number 1 than Scottie is.

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

Yeah that’s fair. I just think it’s better to build a playoff ready roster and then get that #1 option similar to how Masai did it with Kawhi. I think it’s much more realistic at this point rather than bottoming out for the next several years. We had our chance but instead we chased the playoffs with Siakam at the helm.

As for your Suggs point, I think you nailed it. It’s much easier on your roster building method if you get a guy like him when you’re ready to be a contender rather than starting from scratch. The salary will definitely balloon up with him making all defensive teams.

This might be the most difficult thing to accomplish in the entire league. Teams don’t trade those guys (true #1 championship level options) and if they do the player usually dictates where they want to go.

Outside of the Kawhi trade, what other examples are there of non-major market teams trading for a legit #1 option?

Of everything we’ve ever done the Kawhi trade is probably the most difficult thing. No team of our ilk has ever been able to replicate it in NBA history.

[ciueli]

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

Competent 3+D point guards like Suggs are virtually impossible to find, the list of guys who are that type and currently in the NBA is short, and many of them are at the end of their careers (Jrue Holiday, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry as examples).

As for "become expensive quickly", I'd argue players like him often wind up getting undervalued and underpaid for their production, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, and Chauncey Billups are all good examples of 3+D guards who bounced around the league, weren't appreciated at multiple stops, but wound up being key players on title teams. The truth is, players who put up gaudy scoring numbers but are a liability on defence still get paid max contracts (see Trey Young) while players like Suggs who often contribute more to winning don't.

[Scase]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.

Suggs and IQ to me are equal and two sides of the same coin. Thing is, I have a lot more faith teaching an all nba level defender to become an average shooter, than a good shooter becoming an average to above average defender.

It is not a stretch by any measure to say that Suggs should make an all defence team this year. And being top 15 in the league is a bigger achievement than being an above average 3pt shooter. And again, we factor in age, experience, salary, and contract control and you see the scales tip.

Scottie and Paolo look to be the same argument as suggs vs IQ, except age/salary etc all that doesn't apply. I still give Scottie the edge (might be homerism tbf), but I see his 2 way play as being a better skill long term than Paolos offensive game. Scottie reads the game a million times better both defensively and offensively, Paolo is just a better scorer.

Gradey I can't comment on as it's way too early to say, and last year was a 50/50 mix of bad and good, I don't think I will decide on his outlook until the end of next season or the one after. 2-3 years is a fair assessment timeframe.

I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

[Scase]

I think we want to the Raptors to return to winning again but it's going to take time. Even if they keep the pick it may shorten that return by one year it may not, we don't know that. At this point we should be concerned about asset accumulation in picks and depth and see what works.

Agreed on it being asset accumulation time. Let’s leverage whatever we have to get us ahead. Sounds like that’s the plan with the “singles” comment made by Bobby.

I agree that there’s still developmental runway as well. Although I’d like to see a turn towards winning next season.

Considering Bobby saying it won't be 3-5 moves more like 10-12 and Masai talking about the length of rebuilding. At minimum it's going to be a 2 year wait. My expectations coming into 24/25 season is low 30s in wins. Until the defense really improves we aren't going to make headway. Whoever we get from this draft won't drastically change our fortunes and the FA class this year doesn't have a difference maker. Like we both agreed just accumulate assets and add depth to fill out the roster. Focus on developing our players and let the chips fall where they may next season.

Bobby said more like 5-10 moves, not 10-12, I clarify as that is a rather large difference. That said, 5-10 moves still leaves a lot to interpretation. We've seen moves in the past, but if they end up being things like picking up Juancho, Len/Baynes, etc. it doesn't matter the number, what matters is the quality.

You pull off another OG level trade, you might need 4-8 more, but that one speeds up the process disproportionately. So really, it's about what moves they make, not how many. I just don't see them having the true patience for a proper rebuild, all signs are pointing to a re-tool.

[ForeverTFC]

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

Competent 3+D point guards like Suggs are virtually impossible to find, the list of guys who are that type and currently in the NBA is short, and many of them are at the end of their careers (Jrue Holiday, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry as examples).

As for "become expensive quickly", I'd argue players like him often wind up getting undervalued and underpaid for their production, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, and Chauncey Billups are all good examples of 3+D guards who bounced around the league, weren't appreciated at multiple stops, but wound up being key players on title teams. The truth is, players who put up gaudy scoring numbers but are a liability on defence still get paid max contracts (see Trey Young) while players like Suggs who often contribute more to winning don't.

Are they undervalued and hard to find? I disagree. Look at Derrick White and the contract that’s headed his way. Jrue never bounced around and was only traded from Philly in the name of the process; he’s been a max guy pretty much his whole career. These players are only undervalued until their value is known and they unlock the 3 pointer.

Some of the top defensive guys in the league have 1) been traded and 2) are on / about to be some of the fullest value contracts in the league. White, Jrue, Smart, OG, Caruso, Brooks, Bridges, Thybull. That’s every non-big all defensive player of the last two years. Not a single one on their original team, most were had for not that massive of a price, and all are or will be fully paid.

I’d argue that, of all top end talent, this archetype is the easiest to go out and trade for.

[Scase]

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

Competent 3+D point guards like Suggs are virtually impossible to find, the list of guys who are that type and currently in the NBA is short, and many of them are at the end of their careers (Jrue Holiday, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry as examples).

As for "become expensive quickly", I'd argue players like him often wind up getting undervalued and underpaid for their production, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, and Chauncey Billups are all good examples of 3+D guards who bounced around the league, weren't appreciated at multiple stops, but wound up being key players on title teams. The truth is, players who put up gaudy scoring numbers but are a liability on defence still get paid max contracts (see Trey Young) while players like Suggs who often contribute more to winning don't.

Are they undervalued and hard to find? I disagree. Look at Derrick White and the contract that’s headed his way. Jrue never bounced around and was only traded from Philly in the name of the process. These players are only undervalued until their value is known and they unlock the 3 pointer.

Some of the top defensive guys in the league have 1) been traded and 2) are on / about to be some of the fullest value contracts in the league. White, Jrue, Smart, OG, Caruso, Brooks, Bridges, Thybull. That’s every non-big all defensive player of the last two years. Not a single one on their original team, most were had for not that massive of a price, and all are or will be fully paid.

I think what he's saying is that they are undervalued proportionate to their impact on winning, not that they are paid low salaries.

The Trae example is a good one, dude is getting a max contract, but would you rather have his max contract, or pay white what he's likely to get, or Caruso, etc.

[ForeverTFC]

Competent 3+D point guards like Suggs are virtually impossible to find, the list of guys who are that type and currently in the NBA is short, and many of them are at the end of their careers (Jrue Holiday, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry as examples).

As for "become expensive quickly", I'd argue players like him often wind up getting undervalued and underpaid for their production, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, and Chauncey Billups are all good examples of 3+D guards who bounced around the league, weren't appreciated at multiple stops, but wound up being key players on title teams. The truth is, players who put up gaudy scoring numbers but are a liability on defence still get paid max contracts (see Trey Young) while players like Suggs who often contribute more to winning don't.

Are they undervalued and hard to find? I disagree. Look at Derrick White and the contract that’s headed his way. Jrue never bounced around and was only traded from Philly in the name of the process. These players are only undervalued until their value is known and they unlock the 3 pointer.

Some of the top defensive guys in the league have 1) been traded and 2) are on / about to be some of the fullest value contracts in the league. White, Jrue, Smart, OG, Caruso, Brooks, Bridges, Thybull. That’s every non-big all defensive player of the last two years. Not a single one on their original team, most were had for not that massive of a price, and all are or will be fully paid.

I think what he's saying is that they are undervalued proportionate to their impact on winning, not that they are paid low salaries.

The Trae example is a good one, dude is getting a max contract, but would you rather have his max contract, or pay white what he's likely to get, or Caruso, etc.

For sure I’d rather Caruso. My point is, when it’s so early in the team building process, it hampers you. You have to pay them big money yet you still need your 2 offensive max guys because they rarely give you real shot creation on offense. And relative to their contracts, offensive shot creators are just higher value. Trae is a bad example because he’s a historically bad defender, historically bad offensive players like Thybulle don’t even crack rotations sometimes, which again is another sign that offense is much more important and it’s what you need to focus on finding.

[JB7]

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.

Suggs and IQ to me are equal and two sides of the same coin. Thing is, I have a lot more faith teaching an all nba level defender to become an average shooter, than a good shooter becoming an average to above average defender.

It is not a stretch by any measure to say that Suggs should make an all defence team this year. And being top 15 in the league is a bigger achievement than being an above average 3pt shooter. And again, we factor in age, experience, salary, and contract control and you see the scales tip.

Scottie and Paolo look to be the same argument as suggs vs IQ, except age/salary etc all that doesn't apply. I still give Scottie the edge (might be homerism tbf), but I see his 2 way play as being a better skill long term than Paolos offensive game. Scottie reads the game a million times better both defensively and offensively, Paolo is just a better scorer.

Gradey I can't comment on as it's way too early to say, and last year was a 50/50 mix of bad and good, I don't think I will decide on his outlook until the end of next season or the one after. 2-3 years is a fair assessment timeframe.

I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

[HumbleRen]

Franz isn’t better than RJ, he’s just different. If RJ develops a 3 (possible, given his improvement with us), then it’s a wash. Agreed that RJ can bully guards. He’s like a wing offensively and a guard defensively.

Suggs is an excellent defender, but he’s nowhere near IQ offensively imo. I take IQ.

Agreed that Gradey developing is huge for us since he and Scottie would be our wings in most situations. Agreed again on his offense. Would love to see him as a plus team defender.

Franz is 100% better than RJ. If Weltman offered Franz for RJ right now with both of them having the same salary, Masai would be laughing to the bank and accepting it faster than a flash light can turn on. RJ's future with us if we're a good team is him being a 6th man. RJ having so much limitations is the reason why we have to have Scottie on the best wings which exerts so much of his energy that we need from him on offence. It's a serious issue. Don't be fooled by RJ's numbers with us.

IQ is a fantastic shooter but his offence isn't to the point where it's more valuable than having a top 5 guard defender in the league. It's a toss up between them IMO but Suggs has more untapped potential to tap into which makes him the more valuable player to have.

As for Gradey being a + team defender ? I don't see it happening any time soon but hopefully it happens.

The level of homerism I see here sometimes is jarring lol.

Franz is at worst equal to RJ, and when you take into account age, experience (E.G. room to grow), salary, and contract/player control. It's an absolute wash in Franz's favour.


I don't understand why people can't be remotely objective just because it's their team. I really implore people to watch more games than just the raptors, too much box score watching.

Raps fanbase might be the only fanbase to fight for RJ over Franz lmao. Truly hilarious stuff.

[ForeverTFC]

I think the experience of what the Raps core used to be (Pascal, OG & Fred), has shown that great defensive teams that are limited offensively don't get you as far in the playoffs as you might think. At the end of the day, when you need a bucket, you need players that can get you that bucket. So I'm not high on the Magic's core, as they seem to be built like the old Raps team, and that is why I am higher on the Raps current core, because all they all seem like they could get the team a bucket.

Easier to add defenders around a core that can score, than to turn a defensive core into great scorers.

Very well said and this sums up where I lean today. I will cede that I might be over-correcting coming out of an era of great defenders and a coach that prioritized defense. But that’s fine, I need a break. Let’s watch some guys that can create and shoot for a change.

[OakleyDokely]

The Magic will eventually package a combination of Wagner, Suggs, Black, Carter Jr etc and picks for a star.

Or they will need a huge jump offensively from Banchero or a few one of the other guys.

Their halfcourt game gave me scary flashbacks of our team from a couple years ago. Just a struggle to create anything positve.