How big of a gap is there between the Raptors and Magic?

[ForeverTFC]

Paolo > Scottie or = at best.

Franz >>>> RJ.

Suggs = IQ with Suggs having a higher upside on winning basketball over IQ.

Offensively, there’s no real gap. It’s the defensive end where it’s pretty wide.

Suggs is a top 5 point of attack defender in the league for guards. Franz is a legit 2 way player and Paolo is a 6’10 wing himself with length and mobility.

While Barnes is probably the best defender overall here when used right as a help defender, the issue is he isn't used in that way because RJ is objectively a poor defender on wings. IQ is a good team defender in off ball actions but he’s neutral as an on ball defender.

Our 3 guys don’t have enough offensive fire power to make up for their collective mediocre defence. It’s why Gradey’s development is so crucial for us. He needs to be a potent offensive weapon. He showed great signs in the 2nd half but he needs to be much better than just a catch and shoot player and I believe he will be.

Why is Franz better than RJ? Suggs is a specialist (defender), IQ will be a borderline star. Paulo is maybe better than Barnes - but if that is the case it just proves we shouldnt build around Barnes.

Because Franz does what RJ does but is more efficient at it while actually being able to play defence lol. RJ’s eventual role is going to be a 6th man on a competitive team unless he suddenly gets the lateral foot speed to defend his position.

Suggs is a defensive specialist but he’s already made big improvements in his shooting. Him being a better version of Marcus Smart is more impactful than a IQ caliber player.

As for the Scottie debate ? I mean yeah, the jury is out on whether he’s the first option that we build around but at the moment, he’s our best option. You build a competent team and if he doesn’t make the leap, you get a guy via a trade who can be. Similar to the Derozan era.

Agree on RJ, disagree on IQ.

Re: Barnes vs Banchero; it’s obviously easier to envision what Banchero is as a number 1 option than Barnes, and his probability of becoming one is higher but I’m not sold on that his ceiling as a number 1 is high enough to lead to a contender. And if he’s not a number 1, he really doesn’t do enough other things to be exceptional in other roles.

The benefit with Barnes is that while the probability he becomes a number 1 option is lower, he projects as the better player in pretty much every other role.

[islandboy53]

We shouldn't but as of right now we're trying to be a worse version of them lol.

Really? How so?

Because we have a mid core, and are trying to build out from it instead of going for more talent. Cept they are better at it since they arent trading futures for mid tier players whilst being in the lotto.

They actually have league leading defence, and we're mediocre on a good day.

Oh yeah, they also have all their picks, and cap space. So they are doing what we should have done.

There seems to be a consensus that Orlando has more depth, and better defence, and I'm sure we'll see improvements in both areas this year. Draft assets are very similar. They have all their 1sts plus Denver's next year, and are picking 18th this year. We have the 19th pick this year, and have as many 1sts in total as they do. They have up to $58 million in cap space if they ditch Isaac, Fulz, Mo Wagner, etc, but who are they going to spend it on, keeping in mind they have 2 very large extensions coming up?

With all of that said, I don't see their current trajectory as really any better than the Raptors, and we should see that by this time next year.

[HumbleRen]

Why is Franz better than RJ? Suggs is a specialist (defender), IQ will be a borderline star. Paulo is maybe better than Barnes - but if that is the case it just proves we shouldnt build around Barnes.

Because Franz does what RJ does but is more efficient at it while actually being able to play defence lol. RJ’s eventual role is going to be a 6th man on a competitive team unless he suddenly gets the lateral foot speed to defend his position.

Suggs is a defensive specialist but he’s already made big improvements in his shooting. Him being a better version of Marcus Smart is more impactful than a IQ caliber player.

As for the Scottie debate ? I mean yeah, the jury is out on whether he’s the first option that we build around but at the moment, he’s our best option. You build a competent team and if he doesn’t make the leap, you get a guy via a trade who can be. Similar to the Derozan era.

Agree on RJ, disagree on IQ.

Re: Barnes vs Banchero; it’s obviously easier to envision what Banchero is as a number 1 option than Barnes, and his probability of becoming one is higher but I’m not sold on that his ceiling as a number 1 is high enough to lead to a contender. And if he’s not a number 1, he really doesn’t do enough other things to be exceptional in other roles.

The benefit with Barnes is that while the probability he becomes a number 1 option is lower, he projects as the better player in pretty much every other role.

I don’t think either is the bonafide #1 option on a real contender but no matter how you feel about Paolo, the fact that he averaged 27/8/4 in his first playoff series as a 21 year old is very impressive.

So while Scottie might be a better #2 option than Paolo, the first step you want in your rebuild is for your guy to be able to perform as the #1 option on a playoff team. Paolo has done that, the jury is still out on Scottie.

As for the IQ thing, that’s fair but I personally think it’s easier to find an IQ type player than it is to find a Suggs type player. It’s so hard to find first team defensive perimeter caliber players. If IQ can consistently be a 24/4/6 guy then yeah, IQ over Suggs for sure.

[Ackshun]

Doesn’t matter. We should be more concerned about the gap between Toronto and teams like Boston, Dallas, Nuggets and TWolves.

Why do we care how big the gap is between us and Orlando? We went 0-3 against them this year so that’s pretty much all in need to know. lol

[DG88]

Their depth and their defense is what makes them better than us. The defense though is the key. They have plus defenders at almost every position.

The Raptors do not have a lot of either at this point and it's going to take time to get those players. Drafting a defensive player like for example Ryan Dunn isn't going to change our fortunes next year. Pinning your hopes that a rookie changes everything is asinine. It's going to take a few years before we get to that 45+ win threshold.

I’m of two minds on this. On one hand, it would be nice to win, and our young guys I feel have several levels to go still.

On the other hand, being horrible next season is what’s best for our future.

A lot hinges on whether we keep our pick this season. If we do, we have the opportunity to accelerate the rebuild.

I think we want to the Raptors to return to winning again but it's going to take time. Even if they keep the pick it may shorten that return by one year it may not, we don't know that. At this point we should be concerned about asset accumulation in picks and depth and see what works.

[HumbleRen]

Doesn’t matter. We should be more concerned about the gap between Toronto and teams like Boston, Dallas, Nuggets and TWolves.

Why do we care how big the gap is between us and Orlando? We went 0-3 against them this year so that’s pretty much all in need to know. lol

One step at a time haha.

[Scase]

Really? How so?

Because we have a mid core, and are trying to build out from it instead of going for more talent. Cept they are better at it since they arent trading futures for mid tier players whilst being in the lotto.

They actually have league leading defence, and we're mediocre on a good day.

Oh yeah, they also have all their picks, and cap space. So they are doing what we should have done.

There seems to be a consensus that Orlando has more depth, and better defence, and I'm sure we'll see improvements in both areas this year. Draft assets are very similar. They have all their 1sts plus Denver's next year, and are picking 18th this year. We have the 19th pick this year, and have as many 1sts in total as they do. They have up to $58 million in cap space if they ditch Isaac, Fulz, Mo Wagner, etc, but who are they going to spend it on, keeping in mind they have 2 very large extensions coming up?

With all of that said, I don't see their current trajectory as really any better than the Raptors, and we should see that by this time next year.

You don't think a team that has a core that was 21, 22, and 22 years old, that just managed to have the second best defence in the NBA, has more cap space, has more depth, and more picks than us......doesn't have a better trajectory?

Sometimes, I honest to god have no idea how some of you come to these conclusions. It is baffling.

[ForeverTFC]

Because Franz does what RJ does but is more efficient at it while actually being able to play defence lol. RJ’s eventual role is going to be a 6th man on a competitive team unless he suddenly gets the lateral foot speed to defend his position.

Suggs is a defensive specialist but he’s already made big improvements in his shooting. Him being a better version of Marcus Smart is more impactful than a IQ caliber player.

As for the Scottie debate ? I mean yeah, the jury is out on whether he’s the first option that we build around but at the moment, he’s our best option. You build a competent team and if he doesn’t make the leap, you get a guy via a trade who can be. Similar to the Derozan era.

Agree on RJ, disagree on IQ.

Re: Barnes vs Banchero; it’s obviously easier to envision what Banchero is as a number 1 option than Barnes, and his probability of becoming one is higher but I’m not sold on that his ceiling as a number 1 is high enough to lead to a contender. And if he’s not a number 1, he really doesn’t do enough other things to be exceptional in other roles.

The benefit with Barnes is that while the probability he becomes a number 1 option is lower, he projects as the better player in pretty much every other role.

I don’t think either is the bonafide #1 option on a real contender but no matter how you feel about Paolo, the fact that he averaged 27/8/4 in his first playoff series as a 21 year old is very impressive.

So while Scottie might be a better #2 option than Paolo, the first step you want in your rebuild is for your guy to be able to perform as the #1 option on a playoff team. Paolo has done that, the jury is still out on Scottie.

As for the IQ thing, that’s fair but I personally think it’s easier to find an IQ type player than it is to find a Suggs type player. It’s so hard to find first team defensive perimeter caliber players. If IQ can consistently be a 24/4/6 guy then yeah, IQ over Suggs for sure.

For sure, Banchero has proven more as a number 1 than Scottie has even hinted at. And to your point, finding that number 1 is probably the single most important step in building a contender. But I do think that sometimes you can fall into a trap with the below the median number 1 guy and it becomes really hard to come out of that if you build your roster around him. One of the most underrated parts of the team Masai built that ultimately won the championship was that it was never built around DeRozan. We all knew he wasn’t the guy. So I guess that’s my glass half full painting of the picture, but should recognize that Paola is a lot closer to being a number 1 than Scottie is.

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

[JB7]

He's going to improve obviously, but Wagner getting the max after that game 7 performance will be amusing. The Magic can hard cap themselves with Banchero/Wagner/Suggs like we would've been doing with Siakam/FVV/Anunoby even though their core is younger.

This is the real problem Orlando faces. Both Franz & Suggs are extension eligible this summer. Do they extend them now, and for how much, or wait until next summer and risk pissing them off?

They will be RFAs next summer, but then the risk is other teams throwing higher offers at them, and being forced to match a player pissed at them for not paying them in the first place. Much like the situation between the Suns and Ayton.

But the Magic, desperate to keep their 3 young players happy might fall into the trap of overpaying players that can't live up to that pay day, and then they are stuck with a core 3 that can't get it done.

[HumbleRen]

Agree on RJ, disagree on IQ.

Re: Barnes vs Banchero; it’s obviously easier to envision what Banchero is as a number 1 option than Barnes, and his probability of becoming one is higher but I’m not sold on that his ceiling as a number 1 is high enough to lead to a contender. And if he’s not a number 1, he really doesn’t do enough other things to be exceptional in other roles.

The benefit with Barnes is that while the probability he becomes a number 1 option is lower, he projects as the better player in pretty much every other role.

I don’t think either is the bonafide #1 option on a real contender but no matter how you feel about Paolo, the fact that he averaged 27/8/4 in his first playoff series as a 21 year old is very impressive.

So while Scottie might be a better #2 option than Paolo, the first step you want in your rebuild is for your guy to be able to perform as the #1 option on a playoff team. Paolo has done that, the jury is still out on Scottie.

As for the IQ thing, that’s fair but I personally think it’s easier to find an IQ type player than it is to find a Suggs type player. It’s so hard to find first team defensive perimeter caliber players. If IQ can consistently be a 24/4/6 guy then yeah, IQ over Suggs for sure.

For sure, Banchero has proven more as a number 1 than Scottie has even hinted at. And to your point, finding that number 1 is probably the single most important step in building a contender. But I do think that sometimes you can fall into a trap with the below the median number 1 guy and it becomes really hard to come out of that if you build your roster around him. One of the most underrated parts of the team Masai built that ultimately won the championship was that it was never built around DeRozan. We all knew he wasn’t the guy. So I guess that’s my glass half full painting of the picture, but should recognize that Paola is a lot closer to being a number 1 than Scottie is.

In regards to Suggs, I worry when you find guys like him too early. They become expensive quickly yet also become really hard to part with because of their impact. And while they’re really important, you still need 2 max guys with them because of their offensive limitations. It just makes team building harder. I think about Jrue on the Pelicans for example vs the Bucks trading for him as their last piece. Similar with White and the Celtics. With IQ, we have a lottery ticket on upside and if he doesn’t work, it’s easy to move on without altering your team identity. So I guess as a rebuilding team, I’d rather IQ than Suggs due to future value though as a contender, I’d much rather Suggs than IQ based on current value.

Yeah that’s fair. I just think it’s better to build a playoff ready roster and then get that #1 option similar to how Masai did it with Kawhi. I think it’s much more realistic at this point rather than bottoming out for the next several years. We had our chance but instead we chased the playoffs with Siakam at the helm.

As for your Suggs point, I think you nailed it. It’s much easier on your roster building method if you get a guy like him when you’re ready to be a contender rather than starting from scratch. The salary will definitely balloon up with him making all defensive teams.

[WaltFrazier]

Watching the second half vs Cavs, it's clear the Magic's weakness was three point shooting. They built a bigger better 6'9 vision team but with the same lack of shooting. Well not as bad shooting. But they're in position to add shooting and a better offensive guard, and keep improving as a team. They are miles ahead of where the Raptors are at.

[HumbleRen]

He's going to improve obviously, but Wagner getting the max after that game 7 performance will be amusing. The Magic can hard cap themselves with Banchero/Wagner/Suggs like we would've been doing with Siakam/FVV/Anunoby even though their core is younger.

This is the real problem Orlando faces. Both Franz & Suggs are extension eligible this summer. Do they extend them now, and for how much, or wait until next summer and risk pissing them off?

They will be RFAs next summer, but then the risk is other teams throwing higher offers at them, and being forced to match a player pissed at them for not paying them in the first place. Much like the situation between the Suns and Ayton.

But the Magic, desperate to keep their 3 young players happy might fall into the trap of overpaying players that can't live up to that pay day, and then they are stuck with a core 3 that can't get it done.

I think you retain them and move them in the future when they’re ready to go all in.

They’re all still 21, 22 and 22 years old. Several years away from being in their primes.

[mrdressup]

We're years away from being a first round losing team.

[Ackshun]

Doesn’t matter. We should be more concerned about the gap between Toronto and teams like Boston, Dallas, Nuggets and TWolves.

Why do we care how big the gap is between us and Orlando? We went 0-3 against them this year so that’s pretty much all in need to know. lol

One step at a time haha.

One thing that stands out to me is Orlando’s record against teams above 500 - 19 wins and 28 loses. NYK and CLE also not so good so not sure how relevant this stat is but thought it was interesting. Boston is in a different world man

[JB7]

He's going to improve obviously, but Wagner getting the max after that game 7 performance will be amusing. The Magic can hard cap themselves with Banchero/Wagner/Suggs like we would've been doing with Siakam/FVV/Anunoby even though their core is younger.

This is the real problem Orlando faces. Both Franz & Suggs are extension eligible this summer. Do they extend them now, and for how much, or wait until next summer and risk pissing them off?

They will be RFAs next summer, but then the risk is other teams throwing higher offers at them, and being forced to match a player pissed at them for not paying them in the first place. Much like the situation between the Suns and Ayton.

But the Magic, desperate to keep their 3 young players happy might fall into the trap of overpaying players that can't live up to that pay day, and then they are stuck with a core 3 that can't get it done.

I think you retain them and move them in the future when they’re ready to go all in.

They’re all still 21, 22 and 22 years old. Several years away from being in their primes.

They definitely sign them.

Problem is, once Suggs and Franz are signed to new big deals, do they become harder to move, because they could have less value to other teams if they are overpaid.

These guys all look great on rookie deals. Once they start to get paid, expectations change.

[Reeko]

Pretty big gap now.

But let’s not forget the amount of draft capital put into that magic team.

2013 #2 Oladipo
2014 #4 Gordon
2015 #5 Hezonja
2016 #11 Sabonis
2017 #6 Isaac
2018 #6 Bamba
2019 #16 Okeke
2020 #15 Antony
2021 #5 Suggs
2021 #8 Wagner
2022 #1 Pancetta
2023 #6 Anthony
2023 #11 Howard

I’m not knocking the Magic here btw. That time frame included two rebuilds and multiple head coaches and GMs. But that is the amount of losing and mediocrity required to get to a first round 7 game series loss.

With some lottery luck this year and one more season in the tank, the Raptors could actually be in a much better position than the Magic. But I don’t believe most Raptors fans have enough awareness to realize what the teams in the playoffs today have gone through to get to where they are (Boston the lone exception).

Fixed

[Basketball_Jones]

I like Banchero. He’s a big 6’10” with Carmelo Anthony type of game. Not sure that’s really a top guy to contend with (Anthony wasn’t) but this day and age this type of game has more impact. End of the day everyone is propping up non MVP caliber guys to build around. In reality, only Jokic and Giannis can be trusted to carry a team to a title imo. Durant/Booker/Kawhi/George/Embiid/Davis/Lebron/Tatum/Luka are either declining or not proven yet.

[Los_29]

I could be very wrong here but I’m just not buying this Orlando team. I don’t buy Paolo as the first option and I don’t buy Franz as the second option. Suggs will net out as Marcus Smart. Issac’s game may never scale, and Howard and Black are complete unknowns.

So to me, the gap is irrelevant, because if we’re going to rebuild, we need to set up for a higher ceiling. One blessing for us is that even if we are locked into Barnes as the guy to build around, we are not locked into him as our first option.

I think this is the key here. Orlando needs Paolo as their first option because he doesn’t provide enough in other areas to justify having him in a lesser role.

With Scottie, he most likely is not going to blossom into a 1st option but he does so many other things that he would likely be a lot more useful in that role anyway.

Marcus Smart to many, is wildly overrated. The Celtics failed with him as their 3rd best player. If Suggs is a Marcus Smart and he's paired with a 1st option that posts a 54% TS% then that team has a very low ceiling.

The problem is Franz is much better than RJ. So although we have the edge with IQ/Suggs, RJ is so far behind Franz in terms of impact.

[JB7]

I could be very wrong here but I’m just not buying this Orlando team. I don’t buy Paolo as the first option and I don’t buy Franz as the second option. Suggs will net out as Marcus Smart. Issac’s game may never scale, and Howard and Black are complete unknowns.

So to me, the gap is irrelevant, because if we’re going to rebuild, we need to set up for a higher ceiling. One blessing for us is that even if we are locked into Barnes as the guy to build around, we are not locked into him as our first option.

I think this is the key here. Orlando needs Paolo as their first option because he doesn’t provide enough in other areas to justify having him in a lesser role.

With Scottie, he most likely is not going to blossom into a 1st option but he does so many other things that he would likely be a lot more useful in that role anyway.

Marcus Smart to many, is wildly overrated. The Celtics failed with him as their 3rd best player. If Suggs is a Marcus Smart and he's paired with a 1st option that posts a 54% TS% then that team has a very low ceiling.

The problem is Franz is much better than RJ. So although we have the edge with IQ/Suggs, RJ is so far behind Franz in terms of impact.

Is Franz that much better, or even better than RJ?

Looking at RJ's numbers on the Raps, they all seemed to be better than Franz's numbers. RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. The numbers where Franz is better are some of the advanced stats (WS, BPM, VORP) that would all be influenced as well by the Magic's overall team performance.

[Los_29]

I could be very wrong here but I’m just not buying this Orlando team. I don’t buy Paolo as the first option and I don’t buy Franz as the second option. Suggs will net out as Marcus Smart. Issac’s game may never scale, and Howard and Black are complete unknowns.

So to me, the gap is irrelevant, because if we’re going to rebuild, we need to set up for a higher ceiling. One blessing for us is that even if we are locked into Barnes as the guy to build around, we are not locked into him as our first option.

I think this is the key here. Orlando needs Paolo as their first option because he doesn’t provide enough in other areas to justify having him in a lesser role.

With Scottie, he most likely is not going to blossom into a 1st option but he does so many other things that he would likely be a lot more useful in that role anyway.

Marcus Smart to many, is wildly overrated. The Celtics failed with him as their 3rd best player. If Suggs is a Marcus Smart and he's paired with a 1st option that posts a 54% TS% then that team has a very low ceiling.

The problem is Franz is much better than RJ. So although we have the edge with IQ/Suggs, RJ is so far behind Franz in terms of impact.

Is Franz that much better, or even better than RJ?

Looking at RJ's numbers on the Raps, they all seemed to be better than Franz's numbers. RJ is only 1 year older than Franz. The numbers where Franz is better are some of the advanced stats (WS, BPM, VORP) that would all be influenced as well by the Magic's overall team performance.

Yeah that’s true but I think Franz is a much better defensive player than RJ. But you’re right, being on a good team can influence a lot of advanced stats. RJ has never had good advanced stats though and he’s been on some good Knicks teams.