Feschuk: Moves not enough for championship

[cdel00]

Raptell, I'm not really that optimistic that the financial flexibility the Raps have in a couple years will garner much more success than we have seen thus far. I think history has shown cap space hasn't garnered much in Raptorland.

Yogi, I'm not advocating buying a championship with aging injured players but that is the best course of action in my eyes since Bryan decided to go with JO which was not the route I wanted to go. One of the biggest reasons I DID NOT like the trade was because it smelled like a move the Knicks would make.

If in two years we are left building around Bosh and Jose which happen to be two players inherited from previous management groups then I will be thoroughly disappointed with the way Bryan has handled his assets.

well put. and you didnt even slam TJ

agree 100%. with all the praise colangelo gets around here (for doing hardly anything), are we really gonna be content with this NOT working out and waiting another 2 years to rebuild?? Colangelo would have proven WORSE than Babcock if this "plan" (more like a small bandaid over a wound in need of stitches) falls through. He also would have wasted our core youth in very important developmental/chemistry years. I feel like BC just got too giddy when making this deal, and was clearly the 'bitch' in the deal too. We could have made several upgrades to our team with the assets, instead we made one big RISKY upgrade.

I'm pretty sure the concensus on this board was the Raps needed to:
1) consolidate assets into an allstar
2) drastically improve interior D
3) drastically improve rebounding
4) improve perimeter D

BC delivered on all of those yet you call it a Band-Aid fix? why?
Would you rather not get O'Neal and grab Brand instead and extend the risk from 2 years to 5 years?
Again you are under estimating just how good of a perimeter defender both Adams and Ukic are.
BC has done an excellent job and this year's Raptors are the best version of the club EVER.

The only money on this year's club that could be questioned is Kapono's and Bargnani's contracts the rest of the contracts are some of the better value contracts in the league.

[Homer Jay]

I don't think the moves are complete. But as others have pointed out, trading Bargs now will not net much in return. We need to see him come in with some more training and better confidence. Not having the pressure to start will help him.

I could very well see VC available from the Nets. Is Bargs+Parker+ 1st enough to get him? Maybe, maybe not. You're looking at probably the easiest position in the league to fill. I am very glad thou that probably for the first time since 2001 (when we had Alvin, and AD) that we are completlely set at PG and C, the two hardest positions in the league to fill.

Yeah BC hasn't been perfect but other than drafting Bargs ahead of Roy (who if was on this team now we would be talking championship), there hasn't been any glaring bad moves. Turning Villaneuva, Bonner, Eric Williams, and a first into JO isn't a bad move.

[RapTelligence]

Guy,
I understand your concerns that the Raptor organization has not been able to convert cap flexibility into something concreate in the past. But Thats the past.
The only reason I feel optimistic is because BC is in charge and he would probably plan and execute better than any of our previous GM's. Bosh and Calderon might be from the previous regime, but when BC felt they were good enough to keep and resign them they get credited to BC's record. If Bosh flopped after resigning then BC would have the flake. If Caldy flops then its on BC too.
I know you feel Grunwald was our best GM. I woould have loved to see GG run the show with total atonomy like BC has. The guy was smart and respected.

[SHootaR]

I'm pretty sure the concensus on this board was the Raps needed to:
1) consolidate assets into an allstar
2) drastically improve interior D
3) drastically improve rebounding
4) improve perimeter D

BC delivered on all of those yet you call it a Band-Aid fix? why?
Would you rather not get O'Neal and grab Brand instead and extend the risk from 2 years to 5 years?
Again you are under estimating just how good of a perimeter defender both Adams and Ukic are.
BC has done an excellent job and this year's Raptors are the best version of the club EVER.

The only money on this year's club that could be questioned is Kapono's and Bargnani's contracts the rest of the contracts are some of the better value contracts in the league.

you forgot a HUGE offseason upgrade: the wing position, getting another scorer to help bosh out, WHO CAN CREATE AND GET TO THE HOOP, also with some athleticism. sounds kind of like magette but for half the cost of JO.

then we could have used our draft pick AND rasho's contract maybe to net another centre worth 10 mill maybe. seems like okafor is talking to the clipps. not sure what kind of dollar he would command. bottom line is we'd look much better with maggette at the wing, and still 2 big assets in rasho and pick 17 to play with.

imo, if JO doesn't put up 20 and 10 or 18 and 9 type nums, and we do not get into the 3rd round in either of these next 2 upcoming years...i see this move as a huge disappointment. everyone says, "o i'll be happy if JO just puts up 15 and 9, blah blah blah"...NO. we didn't trade for him to put up 15 and 9...i mean if he does that and we still get to the 3rd round, i'm happy (cuz stats mean nothing if you win). BUT if he doesn't play like the JO we're paying out the ass for, and risking upgrade in other important areas such as the wing...and we cannot put the ball in the hoop in crunch time cuz we STILL lack a wing creator who can get to the hoop at will...i will be very mad at BC. b/c this is exactly what I think will happen.

[chsh22]

I'm pretty sure the concensus on this board was the Raps needed to:
1) consolidate assets into an allstar
2) drastically improve interior D
3) drastically improve rebounding
4) improve perimeter D

Not even close. There were a couple of people who regularly brought up interior presence to replace Andrea, but far and away we were focused on a 20ppg slashing getting-to-the-line wing.

Honestly, I dunno how you can not like this deal. Basically we traded Rasho, Baston, and our #17 for a guy who when healthy is a proven all-star and 20/10 interior defender and a second rounder. TJ had skill, but it was countered by what happened after he came back from injury. Even if JO is a total bust, we're not a whole lot worse than last year (basically last year's squad, + high performing PGs - Delfino and Rasho's contributions). If JO is healthy our team is better than last year.

Slashing wings sure are nice to watch though. Then again, Bosh/O'Neal will probably make for some devastating interior play.

[RealGood]

you guys are the biggest bunch of impatient people i've ever seen in my life. seriously.

you think it can all be done overnight? Now you are critisizing BC because O’Neal on his own wont bring a championship??

The guy is 29, not 42. Relax. Lets see how this year goes, and what kind of future money we might be able to get him at nd be able to sign some pieces around our core to finish the deal.

Geez.

[ldnk]

The Celtics won *A* Championship.
Detroit won *A* Championship

Why is the Celtics model better than Detroit's model. Detroit managed to get to the East finals in 2003, won the championship in 2004, lost in the finals in 2005, lost in the Eastern finals in 2006, lost in the Eastern finals in 2007, and lost in the Eastern finals in 2008. Six straight appearances in the conference finals. The Pistons don't spend to the luxury tax.

Boston is the flavor of the month right now after winning the NBA title, but how do we know that their run wasn't just a fluke? Maybe they bow out in the 1st/2nd round for the next two years until Ray Allen falls apart due to age?

San Antonio, never spends into the luxury tax either, and they have been fine.

I want to hold off on judging what this team needs until I see them on the court. They lack a 3rd option on the court who can create his own shot, but at the same time, Calderon and Parker are great at hitting open shots. If Bargnani can rebound closer to his career shooting averages (including his Italian stats and his rookie season) his shooting numbers are strong. What JO provides for the Raptors is a collapse of the defense. Both Bosh and O'Neal are willing to get dirty in the paint. While Bosh doesn't exactly love contact, both will go to the rim enough to draw defenses. If you double team Bosh, you leave O'Neal open. A quick pass to O'Neal and now there are two or even three shooters open at the arc.

I am also a bigger fan of Calderon's job at running the point. Ford was much better at being able to take a game over on his own, or making higher risk passes that would lead to easy buckets, but I think that Jose does a better job of getting the ball into the hands of the hot shooter. There would be times when Bargnani was actually shooting the ball well (as sparse as they were last year) and he could go 5 minutes between plays where he was actually given an opportunity to shoot. That and his summer is going to be spent entirely working on his strength and rebounding. He doesn't have to get considerably better for this year anymore and that is a big help to him. He was never going to be a strong rebounder when he came into the league. The Raptors needed that out of him though. O'Neal takes that pressure off of his shoulders and he can focus more on developing into that role instead of just diving into it. His defensive game saw improvements last year while his offensive game stagnated.

Another player who has a summer to work on his game, is Jamario Moon. His defensive game is strong, but his shot selection kind of stinks. Now that he has an NBA job, he can spend a lot of his summer working on his shot to be more consistent.

Is this a Championship team, no, but it is a lot better than the one we were putting on the court last year. Even if O'Neal only gives the team 5 more rebounds per game, that is a net of 10 possessions from last year. So ignoring the fact that Jermaine is a good defensive player who will block shots and shut down the odd drive to the basket the Raptors are going to be better defensively.

I really view this season as one to watch to see where the Raptors have to go for the future. If Bargnani progresses with his potential, we will know a lot more about the team 2-3 years down the line. If the team is good defensively and is just short a scorer, BC will have to find a way to make a move. Maybe O'Neal and Bosh don't work well together and the offense slows to a crawl because the ball just hangs around the paint until a bad shot is forced up. Who knows until we see the team on the court.

[SHootaR]

I'm pretty sure the concensus on this board was the Raps needed to:
1) consolidate assets into an allstar
2) drastically improve interior D
3) drastically improve rebounding
4) improve perimeter D

Not even close. There were a couple of people who regularly brought up interior presence to replace Andrea, but far and away we were focused on a 20ppg slashing getting-to-the-line wing.

Honestly, I dunno how you can not like this deal. Basically we traded Rasho, Baston, and our #17 for a guy who when healthy is a proven all-star and 20/10 interior defender and a second rounder. TJ had skill, but it was countered by what happened after he came back from injury. Even if JO is a total bust, we're not a whole lot worse than last year (basically last year's squad, + high performing PGs - Delfino and Rasho's contributions). If JO is healthy our team is better than last year.

Slashing wings sure are nice to watch though. Then again, Bosh/O'Neal will probably make for some devastating interior play.

can't agree with that. i think many would agree we're losing our 2nd best scorer on the team in TJ as well. how can you 'forget' to add him in. will calderon make up for TJ's scoring?? will calderon average 23 pts a game??

[mitch3844]

the people on this board who piss all over this move crack me up and all I can think is that either nothign will make them happy even if we added LeBron or they don't know basketball or the NBA as well as they think they do .. now people are crying for Magette... i'm sorry is Magette going to fix the rebounding and interior D of this team.. didn't think so ... you're talking about a pretty limited wing... shot's not great but can drive ... he wasn't the answer... our biggest problem was interior D and rebounding... well guess what people we solved that problem... no team has a roster full of All Stars... our roster is really good ... what AP and JK lack in skill with other wings they make up in smarts ... like Garbo AP does all the little things and can shoot... JK has been there and won a title and contributed alot to the Heat that year... his experience and shooting is very valuable... these are all things that novice bball fans won't pick up on ... the same people that are calling out BC and this trade on these boards...

BC good job...

[C Court]

I do agree with this, but I think we need to pick the right time to make a move of that sort. Who really can we add with our current assets and signing capabilities? I've mentioned one character, which wasn't a big hit around here. And I'm not sure if he is avilable anyways(Crawford).Is July 10th the right time to commit to going over the cap for this season, with so many question marks still surrounding it? I don't know if there is enough information, player performance, team performance and financial performance to bring to the board right now.

Can Jose play major minutes and carry the team?
Jose and CB4 still have to play in the Olympics this season. Does it make sense to do an all-in move when those guys have the potential to injure themselves in a top flight competition. Yes, I know injuries can always happen, but this would be a concern for me.
Can Bargnani be a meaningful contributor?
Is there a role player that is going to seize the moment? (ie Hump, Joey) Remember, Joey is in a contract year. (And know I don't have any hopes for him, I'm just listing a potential question.)
Is AP on the slide?
Can Moon build on his game?
Can either or both second rounders, Roko and Jawai, contribute?
Will Kapwno expand his role this season? I think he laid a lot of ground work in becoming more versatile offensively last season, which could really pay off this year.

So with all of that being said, does it make sense to push your stack right away?

Edit: good post dagger

While I feel that MLSE needs to allow Bryan to exceed the Luxury Tax, it makes sense to wait until later in the year. I'm OK with waiting to see how the team performs for a month or two before making a move.

My only concern is that yesterday Bryan spoke about Jose reducing his salary by $60k in year one to keep the Raps under the tax. I certainly hope that's not a sign that MLSE is holding Bryan under the cap at all costs.

[sh00n]

I do agree with this, but I think we need to pick the right time to make a move of that sort. Who really can we add with our current assets and signing capabilities? I've mentioned one character, which wasn't a big hit around here. And I'm not sure if he is avilable anyways(Crawford).Is July 10th the right time to commit to going over the cap for this season, with so many question marks still surrounding it? I don't know if there is enough information, player performance, team performance and financial performance to bring to the board right now.

Can Jose play major minutes and carry the team?
Jose and CB4 still have to play in the Olympics this season. Does it make sense to do an all-in move when those guys have the potential to injure themselves in a top flight competition. Yes, I know injuries can always happen, but this would be a concern for me.
Can Bargnani be a meaningful contributor?
Is there a role player that is going to seize the moment? (ie Hump, Joey) Remember, Joey is in a contract year. (And know I don't have any hopes for him, I'm just listing a potential question.)
Is AP on the slide?
Can Moon build on his game?
Can either or both second rounders, Roko and Jawai, contribute?
Will Kapwno expand his role this season? I think he laid a lot of ground work in becoming more versatile offensively last season, which could really pay off this year.

So with all of that being said, does it make sense to push your stack right away?

Edit: good post dagger

While I feel that MLSE needs to allow Bryan to exceed the Luxury Tax, it makes sense to wait until later in the year. I'm OK with waiting to see how the team performs for a month or two before making a move.

My only concern is that yesterday Bryan spoke about Jose reducing his salary by $60k in year one to keep the Raps under the tax. I certainly hope that's not a sign that MLSE is holding Bryan under the cap at all costs.

Most likely it is, and it's a shame.

[SHootaR]

the people on this board who piss all over this move crack me up and all I can think is that either nothign will make them happy even if we added LeBron or they don't know basketball or the NBA as well as they think they do .. now people are crying for Magette... i'm sorry is Magette going to fix the rebounding and interior D of this team.. didn't think so ... you're talking about a pretty limited wing... shot's not great but can drive ... he wasn't the answer... our biggest problem was interior D and rebounding... well guess what people we solved that problem... no team has a roster full of All Stars... our roster is really good ... what AP and JK lack in skill with other wings they make up in smarts ... like Garbo AP does all the little things and can shoot... JK has been there and won a title and contributed alot to the Heat that year... his experience and shooting is very valuable... these are all things that novice bball fans won't pick up on ... the same people that are calling out BC and this trade on these boards...

BC good job...

lol at calling ppl 'novice ball fans' cuz we disagree with your opinion.

and you CLEARLY totally missed the point on maggette. maggette would allow us to STILL improve the centre position, interior D, rebounding, shotblocking etc etc. maggette unlike JO doesn't cost 20 million, he costs HALF of that. why you would suggest we'd be finished after acquiring maggette is beyond me.

[cheapfoul]

I can't believe Dave Feschuck actually can still generate 6 pages of discussion with his usual tripe.

Blah blah blah Colangelo overated. Blah blah blah trade was a mistake. Blah blah blah Raptors aren't very good. Blah blah blah team has no direction. Yadda yadda yadda Bargnani is a bust. Yadda yadda yadda Calderon is 27 years old and may have already peaked (I freaking LOVED that line....you show yourself to be a bigger idiot every time you put finger to keyboard Dave!).

[RealGood]

You sit here and praise Grunwald, yet his latter moves are what put this franchise handicapped for years by giving HUGE contracts to JYD, Antonio Davis and Hakeem Olajuwan (I leave Alvin out of this, because his was deserved).

Then you say Colangelo has done nothing?? Do you forget making the playoffs in 2 consecutive years after missing it for 3? Do you forget that he brought 9 (NINE!!!) new players in after the Babcock regime to turn this team around?

What about bringing in a new culture of a then, sinking ship of an organization whom had lost all hope after losing Vince Carter for peanuts. Just because he uses interchangeable parts to get the job done, doesn’t mean he fails. It means he knows how to use talent to achieve the team’s goals. This is the new NBA, no players stick around for the length of their careers anymore. He makes the best of what is now a carousel leauge. His scouting and international savvy is what brought over good talent at a cheap price.

Sure Bosh and Calderon are from previous regimes, but who’s keeping them here? Wasn’t an easy task to keep important people around here unless they were grossly overpaid (Jose is receiving one more million per year than JYD did, and a total of $2 million less on the overall rumored deal).

You guys want the perfect man in a general manager, but nobody’s perfect. If there’s people who look at bringing TJ overhere as a mistake, I just laugh. There is no way CV fetches anything worthwile right now, and I’m a firm believer that TJ had a big part in making Jose into what he is today.

The best quality to have in a manager is one who is able to recognize his mistakes and fixes them. That’s all you can ask for - and that’s all Bryan has done his whole career.

I hope the teenage-girl-like panics on this board simmer down before we all lose sight of how lucky we are to finally have this franchise on the right track.

[Guy Smiley]

Guy,
I understand your concerns that the Raptor organization has not been able to convert cap flexibility into something concreate in the past. But Thats the past.
The only reason I feel optimistic is because BC is in charge and he would probably plan and execute better than any of our previous GM's. Bosh and Calderon might be from the previous regime, but when BC felt they were good enough to keep and resign them they get credited to BC's record. If Bosh flopped after resigning then BC would have the flake. If Caldy flops then its on BC too.
I know you feel Grunwald was our best GM. I woould have loved to see GG run the show with total atonomy like BC has. The guy was smart and respected.

I guess I'm a little disappointed in the return to date with the previous cap flexibility BC had when he got here. He also had a #1 pick on top of that.

I still have faith in BC but he has made numerous moves I have been not been particularly fond of at the time they were consummated and we are now reaping some of the backlash of those mistakes.

I'm grateful for the short-term improvement the team has enjoyed but really question the vision moving forward.

[cdel00]

I'm pretty sure the concensus on this board was the Raps needed to:
1) consolidate assets into an allstar
2) drastically improve interior D
3) drastically improve rebounding
4) improve perimeter D

Not even close. There were a couple of people who regularly brought up interior presence to replace Andrea, but far and away we were focused on a 20ppg slashing getting-to-the-line wing.

Honestly, I dunno how you can not like this deal. Basically we traded Rasho, Baston, and our #17 for a guy who when healthy is a proven all-star and 20/10 interior defender and a second rounder. TJ had skill, but it was countered by what happened after he came back from injury. Even if JO is a total bust, we're not a whole lot worse than last year (basically last year's squad, + high performing PGs - Delfino and Rasho's contributions). If JO is healthy our team is better than last year.

Slashing wings sure are nice to watch though. Then again, Bosh/O'Neal will probably make for some devastating interior play.

can't agree with that. i think many would agree we're losing our 2nd best scorer on the team in TJ as well. how can you 'forget' to add him in. will calderon make up for TJ's scoring?? will calderon average 23 pts a game??

I expect Ukic to make up some of the PG differential and for the overall defensive improvement to cover the rest.

As for grabbing Maggette who I really pushed hard for at the trade deadline last year I think getting O'Neal was a far better move. Next to KG and Camby I think O'Neal is the best defender in the paint in the league and has only 2years left on his contract. Signing Maggs at $10M per year for 5 years would really hurt flexibility down the road. In terms of floor impact Moon (FIC40 of 13.6) is actually a better option than Maggs (FIC40 of 13.2) or Josh Howard (FIC40 of 13.1) anyways.

[kalel123]

Thanks so *&*&*king much to Feschuk for pointing out the obvious, wasting paper his garbage is printed on and time.

Not sure if the Raps brass commented on us being contenders but do you really think they, who probably know more basketball than all of us combined, can't see what general public can see clear as daylight? If they sounded overly optimistic, that's just showing optimism for media and fans, what? You expect them to say, we made this move but we all know we probably won't win championships when all is said and done with this team? That'd be pretty sad on the day they make a big trade and sign their future PG, woudlnt' it?

What's wrong with not being a championship-caliber team right now anyway? Boston model has made some people ignorant, how many teams in the past won overnight like that? This is a marathon, not a sprint. Even with Boston, it took A LOT of years of sucking to accumulate the talent they had to trade for Ray Allen and KG and a helping hand from former Celtic in Kevin McHale to do what they did. We are not nearly in similar situation to be able to do that luxury tax or no luxury tax.

The goal for any playoff team is to get better to establish the team and its reputation (cause draft picks after lottery are all near crapshoot anyway) while maintaining flexibility so if the opportunity presented it self, you can take the next step. We did that. If someone good became available now, we can use Bargnani and other midlevel wing players we have to get that player. Wait a year, then O'Neal becomes all-important expiring contract. Another year, he becomes a cap space, in which case, if we were to make a few moves to clear a bit more cap space, we could use the space to get a big FA. That's 3 scenarios where we could be successful and improve even further to the point we may actually be a championship-calibre team.

We did that using a damaged goods in TJ Ford. What more do you expect?

And for anyone that actually believes the Charlotte rumor about Gerald Wallace (who is another injury-prone player BTW) being available but us turning it down due to unwillingness of Charlotte to include second rounder, you are a fool. A deal like that doesn't fall through because of a friggin' second round pick, PERIOD. There probably was a lot more going on behind the scenese if that rumor had any substance. As for Portland, Frye is another soft big man that we don't need nor solves any of our problems and Webster is simply unimpressive to say the least. The dude's a shooter, we need a slasher.

[disc0]

lol, the season hasn't even started yet and we're already digging ourselves into a hole. God I love the city of toronto, the fans of toronto and of course the media of toronto. It's great to be a torontonian loving sports.

If you look at any of the major teams we have, blue jays and leafs, we're nowhere close to winning a championship let alone making the play offs in those sports, yet after 2 straight play off appearances the raptors are magically supposed to be contenders, go into luxury tax, sign 3 all stars and have an amazing bench to compete against the likes of boston. This trade was made to keep us competitive in the much improved East.

[Fairview4Life]

and you CLEARLY totally missed the point on maggette. maggette would allow us to STILL improve the centre position, interior D, rebounding, shotblocking etc etc. maggette unlike JO doesn't cost 20 million, he costs HALF of that. why you would suggest we'd be finished after acquiring maggette is beyond me.

Other teams have to agree to improve the Raps centre position, interior D, rebounding, shotblocking etc etc. You don't magically just get a C if you have less than th eluxury tax, but are still at or near the cap.

[cdel00]

Crash (FIC40 13.2) is another downgrade from Moon (FIC40 13.6).

We really need to raise Moon's profile around here - talk about under appreciated.