Spain's eye-catching faux pas (Update PG23)

[Shaazzam]

But you are attributing the reason for that preference as one solely based on race. I have long felt that there may have been some merit to some people having preferences based on your reasoning, but that was a fairly small minority.

And there are some of our fanbase that do come from other countries that will cheer for one particular player because they feel an ethnic or cultural connection. There is nothing wrong with that.

And then there is an even larger group, whom I would consider the overwhelming majority, who preferred him solely on style of play and performance. It's your opinion that one was preferable to the other, and I even shared that view for many reasons. But we are not here to debate the past.

You seem to be putting mixing your groups up. It seemed that the majority were actually the minority and viceversa because you were most opposed to those reasons. It is not inconceivable that people could disagree with your views and yet not be racists.

I don't disagree with you entirely but i feel the people who preferred Jose over TJ soley based on Jose being spanish or Jose looking "more like them" is bigger than you are willing to acknowledge. Yes i understand some people liked Jose over TJ and they aren't racist but there were people, a lot of people who not only perferred Jose but always tried to bring TJ down whenever they got a chance, even when TJ did nothing wrong. I never heard TJ say one bad thing about the city but i swear the hate for TJ was reaching VC like proportions, this was no accident.

It's common for people to degenerate discussions into us v them and to seek to tear others down while attempting to prop up the focus of their support. And that has nothing to do with racism and the last half of your paragraph has very little to do with this discussion.

People were presented with a choice, and when people have a choice, the choice they choose is right, and the choice the choose against is wrong. And some people will go to insane lengths in order to prove that their choice is right.

[Duncanfan]

But you are attributing the reason for that preference as one solely based on race. I have long felt that there may have been some merit to some people having preferences based on your reasoning, but that was a fairly small minority.

And there are some of our fanbase that do come from other countries that will cheer for one particular player because they feel an ethnic or cultural connection. There is nothing wrong with that.

And then there is an even larger group, whom I would consider the overwhelming majority, who preferred him solely on style of play and performance. It's your opinion that one was preferable to the other, and I even shared that view for many reasons. But we are not here to debate the past.

You seem to be putting mixing your groups up. It seemed that the majority were actually the minority and viceversa because you were most opposed to those reasons. It is not inconceivable that people could disagree with your views and yet not be racists.

I don't disagree with you entirely but i feel the people who preferred Jose over TJ soley based on Jose being spanish or Jose looking "more like them" is bigger than you are willing to acknowledge. Yes i understand some people liked Jose over TJ and they aren't racist but there were people, a lot of people who not only perferred Jose but always tried to bring TJ down whenever they got a chance, even when TJ did nothing wrong. I never heard TJ say one bad thing about the city but i swear the hate for TJ was reaching VC like proportions, this was no accident.

Warning for bypassing the swear filter. Check your PM's. -Shaazzam

As for this spanish national team ad, it is in very bad taste. No matter what the intention was, they shouldn't have done this.

[deck]

I_Like_Dirt

You make good points, and your right, comparing Chapelle Show to this photo is not really a good comparison.

The point I was trying to make is that there are far more serious forms of overt racism in the world that the majority of realgmers (myself included) have no idea about. Yet here we are getting upset about a photo that I'm sure was intended to be a joke.

If you read my first post I did state that I neither found it funny nor thought it was appropriate, I was merely trying to say that we should be concerned with actual physical racism rather than get caught up in the superficial "name calling" type.

The fact that China is currently oppressing people in Tibet and censoring the media has barely even been mention in this thread. That we should be more concerned about Jose and the Spanish team posing for a photo is discouraging.

[YogiStewart]

I'm sorry but I'm actualy more outraged that people are taking offence to this picture. One poster said it before me but we need to be more accepting and practice some humility when it comes to race instead of being a bunch of uptight ass's who get their little panties all up in knots cause of some little picture.

How would people feel if white American guys were mocking African-Americans by pretending to be gorillas, or some such?

or, say, doing the tomahawk chop in support of a sports team named for native americans? or posing w/ gangsta leans with gold chains and crossed-arms and gun-fingers?

hey, my fiancee and i are really offended by the Atlanta Braves' name, but moreso offended by the Cleveland Indians' name and logo.

you have an "Indian" with a mud-red face, sinister eyes, evil, distrusting smile AND you name him Chief Wahoo?

Read this article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1015/p09s01-coop.html . Its very well written and it makes you think about daily things that may be offensive to some, may have history and "tradition" behind it, but is probably best that it is changed. And not changed because some people are overly sensitive - changed because we're living in the "information age" and we should really know better.

[J Dilla]

I'm not surprised by this at all. The soccer fans and team have done worse.

You can make racial jokes with your multicultural friends and they will take it lightly, but this is on a professional level. No matter how you wanna twist it, you don't do it in a professional environment like the Olympics. They have it in the soccer leagues there, looks like its moving to Basketball.

[dagger]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

[Meursault]

The fact that China is currently oppressing people in Tibet and censoring the media has barely even been mention in this thread. That we should be more concerned about Jose and the Spanish team posing for a photo is discouraging.

Feel free to start another thread about it. I'm sure there are many who take exception to what the government of China is doing. But this is a horse of a different color and should have no relation to the Spanish Basketball ad, which is racist and targets those of ethnic Chinese (and East Asian) backgrounds.

[The_Original_Baller]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

[Shaazzam]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

You are treading very dangerously with comments like these. Don't be ridiculous.

[jonny three time]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

Are you really naive enough to believe that some TJ fans didn't solely prefer him because "he looked like them". Everything is a two way street man and you need to realize that and just move on.

[deck]

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

Can you not see that you act the same way towards Jose? Here we are several months after TJ was traded and you must still bring up TJ's name whenever Jose is mentioned? Surely you can see the flaw in this?

[YogiStewart]

I_Like_Dirt

You make good points, and your right, comparing Chapelle Show to this photo is not really a good comparison.

The point I was trying to make is that there are far more serious forms of overt racism in the world that the majority of realgmers (myself included) have no idea about. Yet here we are getting upset about a photo that I'm sure was intended to be a joke.

If you read my first post I did state that I neither found it funny nor thought it was appropriate, I was merely trying to say that we should be concerned with actual physical racism rather than get caught up in the superficial "name calling" type.

The fact that China is currently oppressing people in Tibet and censoring the media has barely even been mention in this thread. That we should be more concerned about Jose and the Spanish team posing for a photo is discouraging.

there are more racist things taking place in the world. but...

1) this is a picture taken of role models
2) its a photo that has likely been seen by hundreds of thousands of (possibly impressionable) eyes

and this is a thread about Spain's wrongdoings, not a thread about China's abysmal human rights' record. that's for a separate off-topic discussion.

and people mention Borat or Chapelle as examples of acceptable racism. and that is kind of correct - Chapelle laughs at his own people. just like someone calling themselves fat or ugly - that's fine. but if a stranger walked up to someone and called them fat or ugly - that's wrong and it crosses a line.
In Borat, most people are laughing because of the situations, not because of the racism. For example, its unbelievable that an American can appear to be taking Borat seriously when he makes comments about religious groups. And then the joke grows when a fictional character is able to elucidate a real person's hateful and racist opinions. The joke is not about hearing Borat sing about throwing a racial group down the well - you laugh (and, i would assume, are appalled) at people happily and gaily singing along to this and not feeling any shame, remorse or guilt.

[Shaazzam]

Let's keep this on topic please.

[Grizzled]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

I don’t want to take this tread off on a tangent, but that’s ridiculous. Apart from the Spaniards who are just following their countryman they way we Canadians do with Nash et al, I think you’d have a hard time naming anyone who had a cultural bias against TJ, let alone a racial bias. Otoh, there were numerous openly racist attacks on Jose. We had Latrell making his ugly remarks about “white Europeans”, and we had countless others cutting down Euros and even mocking Jose’s name and the names of other Euros on an ongoing basis. There is a certain group of people here that seems to believe that they can say anything about other races and that’s ok, but if anyone says anything about their race then it’s a huge issue. That’s a double standard, and that’s what racism is all about.

[The_Original_Baller]

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

Can you not see that you act the same way towards Jose? Here we are several months after TJ was traded and you must still bring up TJ's name whenever Jose is mentioned? Surely you can see the flaw in this?

I can say this, i NEVER said something about Jose that wasn't true. I critized his D, i critized his clutchness. I never go out of my way to bring Jose down. TJ haters were always different. People were talking about his facial expressions, his percieved attitude, his thuglike mentailty, these are all off court, non basketball related topics. I never went there with Jose, but many people went there and walked all over the place including the media, that's the difference.

[Shaazzam]

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

Can you not see that you act the same way towards Jose? Here we are several months after TJ was traded and you must still bring up TJ's name whenever Jose is mentioned? Surely you can see the flaw in this?

I can say this, i NEVER said something about Jose that wasn't true. I critized his D, i critized his clutchness. I never go out of my way to bring Jose down. TJ haters were always different. People were talking about his facial expressions, his percieved attitude, his thuglike mentailty, these are all off court, non basketball related topics. I never went there with Jose, but many people went there and walked all over the place including the media, that's the difference.

Stay on topic people.

[ansoncarter]

No backseat moderating, check your PM. -Shaazzam

[Duncanfan]

Move the fcuk on!

+1

My dislike for TJ had to do with his style of play which didn't suit our game. It had nothing to do with race, religion or dietary preferences.

If Original Baller can't understand that a lot of people got very frustrated with Ford's Jeykll and Hyde act, and his tendency to see his role in a unitary rather than team sense, then there is no hope for him.

If anything, you and Duncanfan just feel guilty. I never pointed out anyone, i never mentioned names. I actually agreed somewhat with Shazaam, there's no reason to try and start something now. I admitted some ppl like Jose just for his skills, but i said a lot of people didn't. That's all i said.

Guilty about what exactly? YOU are the one who mentioned TJ's name and somehow managed to relate Jose's supposed "cunning and deceiving" act of managing to throw TJ out of the team and his somewhat-racist team photo. I still don't see any connection between him winning his starting job and posing with his team for a controversial photo. What does this photoshoot have ANYTHING to do with the Jose/TJ situation? Just cuz Jose managed to edge out TJ and won the nod as our PG of the future, doesn't mean that you bring TJ up in everything Jose related and somehow manage to blame Jose for TJ's departure. If anything, TJ dug his own grave up by acting the way he did.

And as far as I can tell, this photo includes many other primiment players like Gasol, Fernandez, Garbajosa, Rubio et all, then why not target your hate equally towards them as well? Why single Jose out? Why not ask those supposed petitioners you mentioned to boo the hell out of Gasol, Rudy etc. when then they arrive in Toronto to play basketball? Why only grill Jose for it?

You're clearly frustrated and still in the denial stage that a player can actually beat TJ out fair and sqaure. We all know of you're anti-Jose agenda's and I am of the view that you're posting in this topic more cuz this gives you an opportunity to grill Jose so that you can feel better abt losing TJ and not because you feel really offended by the photo...

[The_Original_Baller]

I'm done, i said what i had to say, the real issue is the Spanish Basketball team. We should stay on topic.

[Reignman]

Like I said, the only way this could be perceived as acceptable is if you could walk upto a person of East Asian decent and do it to their face without getting knocked the F out.

I see some people blaming the Spanish Fed or the photographer and I don't get it. These are grown ass men and I'm surprised none of them clued in to it and said "hell no". The Spanish team should apologize ASAP cuz I'm sure there will be some backlash.