Spain's eye-catching faux pas (Update PG23)

[Khan]

Yet Jose Luis Saez, president of the Spanish Basketball Federation, told CNN on Thursday that people are wrong to suggest the photograph has racist overtones.

"It's simply ridiculous," he said. "It was a gesture of affection ... and identification with the Chinese people."

He pointed to a Wednesday article in El Pais, a Spanish newspaper, that quoted a Chinese Embassy spokesman in Spain as saying "we don't interpret this gesture as offensive" or racist.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiap ... pstoryview

There's your link Khan

Thanks! Like I said, I don't believe it's meant to be racism either, just why would the team publicists allow the company to take such picture while these players don't resist? If I am getting paid like Gasol, I would not want to be in the photo shoot at all, and it is not like the company can do anything about it.

[Shaazzam]

I know the context, and I've known it every single time I've seen that picture.

Wrong.

What they need to do is explain to those that don't understand what they are.

And it's not that the onus is on them. They aren't walking around with the flag of spain draped around their necks. So this is where your statement about context comes into play. It's a double edged sword.

Umm..u do realize there are Semana Santa outfits with Spanish crests on the front and websites with tons of pics not explaining anything but illustrating this custom all over Spain.

Just because you understand the context doesn't mean others do. Don't pretend like this is common knowledge. The first responses I got on the general board had to do with KKK.

I thought I edited out wrong when I modified my post, that's not the best way to facilitate a discussion, so again, that's my bad.

So I understand why you are determined to pin me down. I said I knew the context, just please don't put words in my mouth by saying I am speaking for the posters on the main board, or pretending that everyone knows the contest of everything. I thought that I had been quite apparent in saying that context needs to be explained.

And no I didn't know that there outfits with a spanish crest on them, and you didn't show me one of those. I do know what the crest of the KKK looks like, and I don't see any of those on there. So if we both wanted to have a hypothetical discussion about crests I would say if they were both present(the Spanish crest and the crest of the KKK) on our hooded friends there, they might be a Spanish chapter of the KKK, sort of like how bikers in NA will wear patches identifying where they are from.

I'm not sure what the point of that is, or what the point is that you seem so determined to prove to me.

Is it that the symbol of pointy hoods is synonymous to many in NA with the KKK?

I would think that only makes sense. They were a group that thrived on terror, violence and corruption. What other response do you expect? Especially, when we are already talking about racism. Of course you expect no other, which is why you used it.

Is it that people in NA don't always understand why other people behave in ways different then we are accustomed to?

Is that people can fly off the handle when they don't always understand the context of everything?

Is there something wrong that I think it's okay to continue a discussion about ethnic, racial and cultural tolerance after people think everything has been put to bed?

I want to be clear on something, and I don't mean this antagonistically. Sometimes people do things that offend other people and those two will people have complete view points on whether it is offensive or not. The person that caused the offence does not need to "beg for mercy" (I quote this because it is one that I recall in the discussions on the board, and I use it to illustrate the furthest degree) but if there is to be an understanding and in turn tolerance, they need to say something to the effect of "I'm sorry if you are offended, but this is what I meant by that action." They don't need to say they are sorry for the action per se, but you can apologise that others may have taken offence. It's a fine distinction, but a distinction nonetheless.

And it is exactly what the Spanish team did, and what many here seemed to want.

On the other side of the coin, the person that perceived the offence can say here is why I perceived this as being offensive. I don't think it does anyone any good to simply ignore it say that they just don't understand. And many here have provided and explanation, including the Spanish team.

What I think the true step to take in moving forward is for both sides to listen and acknowledge the other. They don't have to agree, but we should listen and acknowledge. Now the Spanish have been pulled through the mud on this one, so I can understand people being sensitive about some of the things said. And if I said anything offensive I apologise. I might need to have it pointed out to me, and will take that feedback and I will use that to try and be better the next time.

[Sugarless]

I know the context, and I've known it every single time I've seen that picture.

Wrong.

What they need to do is explain to those that don't understand what they are.

And it's not that the onus is on them. They aren't walking around with the flag of spain draped around their necks. So this is where your statement about context comes into play. It's a double edged sword.

Since you constantly bring to the table the question of flags, representing a country and so, would you mind commenting on the picture that I posted before? You know the context, you know the history, and you've seen the photograph. Mind to elaborate why do you think no one ever said the US had to apologize for what they did and what do you think about the picture itself? Remember, the US flag was there, as well as a whole bunch of internationally famous athletes. Oh, and just like a few millions of Japanese in their own soil.

Just in case some of you don't remember the pic...



'They proudly take home the bronze'

'...and they proudly military salute (on a sports event, oh the irony!) the flag in front of the people who 60 years ago suffered a nuclear attack, just 400 miles from there, who took the life away from 120.000 inocents.' Hell, and that frigging Carmelo Anthony seems to be enjoying it! Oh, I'm sorry, that wasn't part of the article, was it?

[DG88]

Yet Jose Luis Saez, president of the Spanish Basketball Federation, told CNN on Thursday that people are wrong to suggest the photograph has racist overtones.

"It's simply ridiculous," he said. "It was a gesture of affection ... and identification with the Chinese people."

He pointed to a Wednesday article in El Pais, a Spanish newspaper, that quoted a Chinese Embassy spokesman in Spain as saying "we don't interpret this gesture as offensive" or racist.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiap ... pstoryview

There's your link Khan

Thanks! Like I said, I don't believe it's meant to be racism either, just why would the team publicists allow the company to take such picture while these players don't resist? If I am getting paid like Gasol, I would not want to be in the photo shoot at all, and it is not like the company can do anything about it.

Yes the company, which i assume is another on sponsor could stop funding the basketball program. True they probably have other sponsors as well, but just like in Canada every team needs funds to push their team forward. If the company decide to stop their sponsorship it could hold basket the national teams progress. Just look in Canada when the olympic team don't get enough funds they almost always stall.

[J-Roc]

Robert Downey Jr is wearing black makeup in Tropic Thunder. Basically, to mimic a black guy, he's altered his skin colour, his nose and his hair. To mimic Chinese people, the makers of this ad told the Spanish team to make slanty eyes. Seems all the same to me.

In an ideal "colourblind" world, no one would acknowledge the physical differences of everyone, even for comedy. Or, maybe we should all just accept our differences and not be offended.

[Shaazzam]

I know the context, and I've known it every single time I've seen that picture.

Wrong.

What they need to do is explain to those that don't understand what they are.

And it's not that the onus is on them. They aren't walking around with the flag of spain draped around their necks. So this is where your statement about context comes into play. It's a double edged sword.

Since you constantly bring to the table the question of flags, representing a country and so, would you mind commenting on the picture that I posted before? You know the context, you know the history, and you've seen the photograph. Mind to elaborate why do you think no one ever said the US had to apologize for what they did and what do you think about the picture itself? Remember, the US flag was there, as well as a whole bunch of internationally famous athletes. Oh, and just like a few millions of Japanese in their own soil.

Just in case some of you don't remember the pic...



'They proudly take home the bronze'

'...and they proudly military salute (on a sports event, oh the irony!) the flag in front of the people who 60 years ago suffered a nuclear attack, just 400 miles from there, who took the life away from 120.000 inocents.' Hell, and that frigging Carmelo Anthony seems to be enjoying it! Oh, I'm sorry, that wasn't part of the article, was it?

So is the goal here to hit me with image after image in an attempt to expose me as a hypocrite? If that happens, what then?

Do we stop talking about this? I would hope not.

Wouldn't it make sense to continue the dialogue in a hope that I would achieve a deeper understanding? That's how we achieve tolerance and understanding, through a willingness to communicate.

Here is my response to this picture.

I personally don't find it offensive.

I do however, think there could be a possibility that others could find it offensive or insensitive. If there was an issue over it, I would hope to hear a response as to why those actions were taken. A response along the lines of "I'm sorry if anyone was offended, here is what we meant by it."

Now this could be where we go down along the road of how many complaints warrants a response, if one person is offended, etc etc question the motives of who is causing the outcry, and that's fine, that's part of a separate discussion, and is yet related to the same topic.

For me the fact remains that if there is an issue that arises, it is best to address it. To provide a response, just like what the Spanish have done in this instance. I think that only helps the situation. That may be naive, and there may be situations that if things are handled poorly that can cause more grief, but that generally arises from people who are only interested in trying to get others to misstep.

Robert Downey Jr is wearing black makeup in Tropic Thunder. Basically, to mimic a black guy, he's altered his skin colour, his nose and his hair. To mimic Chinese people, the makers of this ad told the Spanish team to make slanty eyes. Seems all the same to me.

In an ideal "colourblind" world, no one would acknowledge the physical differences of everyone, even for comedy. Or, maybe we should all just accept our differences and not be offended.

That's a very interesting point, and your last sentence is best.

Do we look to over complicate things here in NA? Possibly.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Why is that gesture considered offensive by asian-north american people?
You think what the spaniards did had any correlation with those reasons?

I hate PC, it just moves the focus away from the real problems, making people concentrate about silly things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC9DPSu0tYk

[cdel00]

There are so many arguments that categorizes people over this thread that are more racist / prejudice than the subject of discussion. The Spanish claim there was no racism in the picture and I can understand their logic. People from cultures who have historically used the same gesture to insult / demean claim there is racism in the picture and I can see their logic.

The arguments used by both sides (who are right from their own perspective) are great at displaying the years of frustration that dealing with racism have scared into the psyches of the oppressed. The people offended by the picture have witnessed the same gesture used to demean a culture and a people. The people offended by the accusation that the participants of the picture and the culture they come from are racists have been oppressed by a foreign moral code of what is acceptable.

So who's right? The people who are trying to peacefully bridge the divide between cultures by explaining their view points without attacking the other side.

So who's wrong? The people who are trying to force their morals and perspective on other people in an antagonistic fashion.

My perspective: The intent was humor, The reception was insult, The solution is respect for both the intent and the reception. I respect the Spanish viewpoint and intent as an honest and innocent as much as I respect the Insulted people's viewpoint that the history of negativity associated with the gesture in their cultures is oppressive and painful.

The result is actually positive, both sides now understand the passion and perspective of the other side signaling true communication and sharing of cultures. Maybe open respectful dialogue can heal wounds caused by previous generations in our generation.

Nothing as egotistical as a self quote but I feel that I need to repeat myself.

Anyways the whole subject shows the dangers of imposing a moral code from 1 culture onto the moral code from another culture. Spain has a different history, culture, perspective and set of shameful actions than Britain and her colonies do. So to impose a British perspective on actions of the Spanish is just silly.

The North American history of how the railroad was built and how Asians were treated during WW2 are among the skeletons in her closet. The current sensitivity towards Asians is the bridge from the shameful past into the more tolerant future. The guards on that bridge are loud and quick to ensure the past does not repeat itself.

I commend the discussion and moderation of the discussion on this subject and hope that all involved keep up their efforts to ensure that the future generations will look back on our current present and applaud our collective efforts to remove the racist infection from our species.

[18 Parkerville]

It's ok. Calderon hands out gatorade at the half and can raise three fingers in the air. He doesn't warrant any criticism at all.

[LLJ]

Lost in all this talk about racism and PC-ness and Spanish humour, is the simple fact that as an attempt at humour, can anyone really say with any conviction that the picture was funny? If someone can explain why it is funny, then fine, I can accept it as a failed attempt at humour. But I've almost never seen this "joke" garner ANY laughs whatsoever, except maybe on the Daily Show or the Colbert Report mocking this incident.

I'm not against politically incorrect racial humour. I've heard obviously stereotypical dim sum jokes that were funny. Woody Allen--Soon Yi jokes relating to her race have been funny. Some of the Afro-American-fueled humour in the new movie Tropic Thunder, is quite funny.

But I guess the humour of what the SPanish team did eludes me.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I agree, LLJ. I'm not really sure how a person could label this as funny unless they were laughing at the fact that they thought somebody looked funny(ier than them) and at that point we aren't talking about cultural respect. I mean, if India decided to use their traditional swastika symbol at an Olympics held in Germany claiming that it was a good luck charm (it's what it was) they would have a lot of explaining to do. It just isn't good manners on that kind of scene regardless of whether or not you can justify it a little elsewhere; and even then justifying it elsewhere is based on the assumption that people understand precisely what they're doing and why it's generally frowned upon, which is something I don't get the sense of being the case here.

Regardless, this is obviously not a one-off thing from Spain:

http://vivirlatino.com/2008/08/15/spani ... na-too.php

Edited to add:

I'm also a little bit confused by the poster who suggested that people should give up on trying to improve the world and start mocking everybody different than you (not what was said but is basically another way of putting the same thing). Really, I'm all for acknowledging differences but what exactly is funny about these kinds of physical differences?

[SMG]

haha, nice pun in thread title.