ImageImageImageImageImage

Spain's eye-catching faux pas (Update PG23)

Moderators: HiJiNX, niQ, Morris_Shatford, DG88, Reeko, lebron stopper, 7 Footer, Duffman100

Meursault
Starter
Posts: 2,494
And1: 1,037
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
       

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#61 » by Meursault » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:17 pm

cosmostein wrote:There is a world of difference between ignorance and racism.

The question really is what was the purpose of the picture?

Was it to demean a race? or was it a very poor attempt at humor?

I would imagine that it was a very poorly thought out and rather stupid attempt at humor, but I don't think it was the intent of the Spanish National Basketball team to offend people of Chinese heritage all over the world, and that makes it a very ignorant act rather then a maliciously racist one.


yes and no. Ignorance and racism are not mutually exclusive from one another. Racism is derived from the product of ignorance and intolerance. Rather, racist acts can be dichotomized into malicious and non-malicious, based on the parameters of intent (cause) and impact (effect). I think the problem that individuals are grappling with in this thread is where to draw the line between what constitutes racism and what doesn't. If we break up cause-and-effect into the 4 possible outcomes:

1 - bad intent and severe impact (an example would probably be a lynching or an assault on an individual due to his/her ethnic background). This is probably the most overtly racist scenario that would be universally condemned.

2 - bad intent and minimal impact (an example would be driving on the road, being cut off by a particular ethnic individual, and using a racial slur). Is it still an act of racism to use such a slur? Absolutely.

3 - unintentional and severe impact (here is where the line blurs--the act has to constitute the perpetrator's actions to be consequential but predicated on the notion that the perpetrator did not willfully know that he/she was committing a racist act. This often falls under the reverse-racism category, where an individual may have a favorable disposition towards a particular race or ethnic group and not be aware that he/she is acting in a racially discriminatory fashion. Take for instance, theoretically, a manager who has to hire two equally competent accountants who have the exact same credentials. But the manager hires the ethnic East Asian instead of the African American accountant because she believes that "East Asians" are naturally good at math. Is this action racist towards the African American? Absolutely. It's ALSO a racially discriminatory act towards the East Asian, even if the outcome weighs in his/her favor.

4. - unintentional and minimal impact. This is where the Spanish advertisement likely falls, if we assume the best case scenario (I am not willing to cut them that much slack for reasons I've stated earlier, but also because the middle finger is almost universally acknowledged as an insult--the fact that the slant-eyed gesture was done by all of the basketball players may be coincidental, but also dampens the likelihood of "probable cause"). It could very well be that they did not mean to offend the Chinese and other East Asians with this action, but it doesn't make the action any less offensive, particularly when there is a pretty strong consensus in the global community that to mock the facial features of a given ethnic group is racist. In the event in which the Spanish basketball team was truly ignorant, it is still necessary to apologize in order to make this a constructive learning experience so that future mistakes (by the Spanish or anyone else) are not made in the future. Furthermore, it will allow the everyone to move on from this incident and not like this action have any future adverse effects on Spain during this Olympics or in their attempt to host any future Olympics.
User avatar
LLJ
RealGM
Posts: 53,124
And1: 17,242
Joined: Jul 10, 2003
Location: Unfixed

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#62 » by LLJ » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:18 pm

RaptorReloaded wrote:
LLJ wrote:
RaptorReloaded wrote:I'm sorry but I'm actualy more outraged that people are taking offence to this picture. One poster said it before me but we need to be more accepting and practice some humility when it comes to race instead of being a bunch of uptight ass's who get their little panties all up in knots cause of some little picture.


How would people feel if white guys were imitating Africans by pretending to be gorillas, or such?


Thats just stupid. Do africans look like gorillas to you?

To respond to your comment though, thats completely different and way off base. Wierd white people trying to characterize africans as jungle animals is way more different then an olympic basketball team pretending to be chinese in a photo. If anything it shows how stupid they are and could be takin as comedic.

You know what this reminds me of? That South Park episode where they have to take on the Chinese dodge ball team and during the entire match the chinese announcers rip on the American kids with quotes like " I Guess that stupid american could'nt see that ball with his BIG ROUND EYES! Hahahaha."

I'm white and I don't find that rascist. Infact I LMAO when i saw that. I think i might just try to find that episode again. My point is tough that there was no intent to offend ne one with that photo. People these days are to stressed out from stuff that they come on a message board and feel the need to vent into something they might feel at the time is offensive when in reality it isnt.


No, but it's definitely not something I made up. It does happen.

Even if this kind of thing isn't offensive, how is it funny? I don't think that South Park episode is that funny either (in fact, I hate South Park). Now, I can see the point they were making, but essentially the joke hangs on the ironic reversal of a joke that is not funny, and while it's a good point, it just isn't funny.
Sheenmue
Junior
Posts: 360
And1: 5
Joined: Jan 25, 2008

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#63 » by Sheenmue » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:20 pm

I am spaniard and this obviously was not intended to be racist. In fact, until I have started reading international boards I thought it was only our long problem with the british media and that any asian could take this seriously. I thought this was like when Lithuania in the last Eurobasket played in Spain posed like bullfighters, a funny photo, that's all.

Anyway, I'm sure spanish federation will make a public excuse.
User avatar
Leiro
Sophomore
Posts: 209
And1: 0
Joined: Nov 13, 2006

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#64 » by Leiro » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:20 pm

Everybody say this is a racist act, and probably is couse I´m spaniard, but I don´t get the point. Why is this racism? Maybe is a stereotype and is not a good thing, but is not ofensive, or atleast it´s not against asian race, I mean is like they go to spain and do a pic like bullfighters. i would say, wow what a fools, but never think "they don´t like spaniards.

the same thing happened with Lewis hamilton, some fans of alonso coloured their faces. Funny? Absolutly not, stupid? Of course yes, but a racist act? In spanish culture not, we kid about every region of our country and their people. I mean there are a different idea about what racism is. I think in Borat and Cops when I think in racism on the media.

One thing to think about it, spain was the only one country what did a boicot in Berlin 36. For some of North american athletes Berlin 36 was the first time they travelled in the front seats of a bus
User avatar
LLJ
RealGM
Posts: 53,124
And1: 17,242
Joined: Jul 10, 2003
Location: Unfixed

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#65 » by LLJ » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:22 pm

YogiStewart wrote:
LLJ wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:


honestly, can both of you two shut up? you're just making yourselves look really silly.


How so? How is this any less contentious than those AD threads, which most people (myself included) agreed were inappropriate?


as the joke goes, two Wongs don't make it white.

you can make a point without dredging up previous inappropriate topics or by using other racist/offensive descriptions/stereotypes to make your point. its called: attempting to be articulate.

.


OK, I can see your point, but mainly I'm saying, why do some people "OK" certain racial humour and then condemn others? All are always in poor taste AT BEST, and there shouldn't be qualifiers. That's the problem I have with people who say "Oh lighten up." and then when someone makes an "officially" racist joke, then they react differently. It's hypocritical.

And if there were any confusions, I have to point out I don't agree with Bakafool's remark about Ewing. I failed to point it out initially.
jonny three time
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,952
And1: 3,246
Joined: Jul 24, 2006

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#66 » by jonny three time » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:23 pm

Somebody already mentioned this but the comedy world is overrun with racism. Look how many "buddy comedies" have been out where a white and asian, or black and white and or black and asian guy are paired up, only to make fun of each others looks and cultures etc. Not to mention Chappelle show, South Park, Family guy and other shows that make racist jokes that are way worse than that picture.

Now the Spanish team wasn't put together to go for shock-value comedic pictures so the whole idea in doing this is a bad one. It was definitely in bad taste. But the level of faux pas that it is should be put into perspective. I imagine an apology will be put out at some point and that should be enough for people to put this behind them.
User avatar
Tha Cynic
RealGM
Posts: 23,296
And1: 24,439
Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Location: Starin' at the world through my rearview
     

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#67 » by Tha Cynic » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:25 pm

I've grown up in Scarborough in a very diverse area and have friends from every race, so I usually take racist jokes lightly. We make fun of each of our races based on stereotypes and no one ever gets offended because we understand its just joking around, whether we're friends or not. But what this team is doing is making fun of the physical appearance of a race. That seems a bit over the top.

I would love to hear the mastermind behind this explain themselves. What was the point of this picture?
Kobe Bryant:You asked for my hustle - I gave you my heart, because it came with so much more."~Kobe #MambaOut
User avatar
Tomato
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,894
And1: 14
Joined: Apr 16, 2003
Location: Montreal

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#68 » by Tomato » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:26 pm

LLJ wrote:
YogiStewart wrote:
LLJ wrote:How so? How is this any less contentious than those AD threads, which most people (myself included) agreed were inappropriate?


as the joke goes, two Wongs don't make it white.

you can make a point without dredging up previous inappropriate topics or by using other racist/offensive descriptions/stereotypes to make your point. its called: attempting to be articulate.

.


OK, I can see your point, but mainly I'm saying, why do some people "OK" certain racial humour and then condemn others? All are always in poor taste AT BEST, and there shouldn't be qualifiers. That's the problem I have with people who say "Oh lighten up." and then when someone makes an "officially" racist joke, then they react differently. It's hypocritical.

And if there were any confusions, I have to point out I don't agree with Bakafool's remark about Ewing. I failed to point it out initially.


We need an Asian Jesse Jackson.
Image
by Shoon.
Meursault
Starter
Posts: 2,494
And1: 1,037
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
       

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#69 » by Meursault » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:26 pm

Leiro wrote:Everybody say this is a racist act, and probably is couse I´m spaniard, but I don´t get the point. Why is this racism? Maybe is a stereotype and is not a good thing, but is not ofensive, or atleast it´s not against asian race, I mean is like they go to spain and do a pic like bullfighters. i would say, wow what a fools, but never think "they don´t like spaniards.

the same thing happened with Lewis hamilton, some fans of alonso coloured their faces. Funny? Absolutly not, stupid? Of course yes, but a racist act? In spanish culture not, we kid about every region of our country and their people. I mean there are a different idea about what racism is. I think in Borat and Cops when I think in racism on the media.

One thing to think about it, spain was the only one country what did a boicot in Berlin 36. For some of North american athletes Berlin 36 was the first time they travelled in the front seats of a bus


it is racist because it is an act that makes fun of a physical feature of an ethnic group. To dress up as a bullfighter or to take a photo of a bunch of athletes throwing tomatoes at each other is not racist (though I would say that it is culturally insensitive, discriminatory, and offensive if depicted in an improper context), because it doesn't make fun of the specific physical features of Spaniards such as skin color or facial features. If there was a stereotype such as "all Spanish people have long necks", and the Chinese basketball players posed in a photo that was photoshopped to have very long necks, or if they all dressed up as giraffes with the Spanish flag or the image of a bull in front of them, then you can be sure that that would constitute a racist act.
Sheenmue
Junior
Posts: 360
And1: 5
Joined: Jan 25, 2008

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#70 » by Sheenmue » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:32 pm

Meursault wrote:
Leiro wrote:Everybody say this is a racist act, and probably is couse I´m spaniard, but I don´t get the point. Why is this racism? Maybe is a stereotype and is not a good thing, but is not ofensive, or atleast it´s not against asian race, I mean is like they go to spain and do a pic like bullfighters. i would say, wow what a fools, but never think "they don´t like spaniards.

the same thing happened with Lewis hamilton, some fans of alonso coloured their faces. Funny? Absolutly not, stupid? Of course yes, but a racist act? In spanish culture not, we kid about every region of our country and their people. I mean there are a different idea about what racism is. I think in Borat and Cops when I think in racism on the media.

One thing to think about it, spain was the only one country what did a boicot in Berlin 36. For some of North american athletes Berlin 36 was the first time they travelled in the front seats of a bus


it is racist because it is an act that makes fun of a physical feature of an ethnic group. To dress up as a bullfighter or to take a photo of a bunch of athletes throwing tomatoes at each other is not racist (though I would say that it is culturally insensitive, discriminatory, and offensive if depicted in an improper context), because it doesn't make fun of the specific physical features of Spaniards such as skin color or facial features. If there was a stereotype such as "all Spanish people have long necks", and the Chinese basketball players posed in a photo that was photoshopped to have very long necks, or if they all dressed up as giraffes with the Spanish flag or the image of a bull in front of them, then you can be sure that that would constitute a racist act.


There is a big difference between a difference (like eyes), and a phisical handicap. If somebody in Spain makes a joke about a physical handicap it is considered as bad taste, but anybody cares about differences. I don't understand how being different can be a problem (I'm sure a lot of guys in Spain think asian eyes are sexy).
99 Problems
Banned User
Posts: 8,460
And1: 7
Joined: Mar 07, 2007

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#71 » by 99 Problems » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:35 pm

If it was any other country it might be easier to pass off as a mistake, but this is Spain we're talking about.. How many times have they been in the media for racist **** directed at footballers? And then that whole Lewis Hamilton thing.. Its like there's a lack of cultural sensitivity in that country.. They already have a bad image around the world, this isn't helping..
Meursault
Starter
Posts: 2,494
And1: 1,037
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
       

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#72 » by Meursault » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:37 pm

Sheenmue wrote:
Meursault wrote:
Leiro wrote:Everybody say this is a racist act, and probably is couse I´m spaniard, but I don´t get the point. Why is this racism? Maybe is a stereotype and is not a good thing, but is not ofensive, or atleast it´s not against asian race, I mean is like they go to spain and do a pic like bullfighters. i would say, wow what a fools, but never think "they don´t like spaniards.

the same thing happened with Lewis hamilton, some fans of alonso coloured their faces. Funny? Absolutly not, stupid? Of course yes, but a racist act? In spanish culture not, we kid about every region of our country and their people. I mean there are a different idea about what racism is. I think in Borat and Cops when I think in racism on the media.

One thing to think about it, spain was the only one country what did a boicot in Berlin 36. For some of North american athletes Berlin 36 was the first time they travelled in the front seats of a bus


it is racist because it is an act that makes fun of a physical feature of an ethnic group. To dress up as a bullfighter or to take a photo of a bunch of athletes throwing tomatoes at each other is not racist (though I would say that it is culturally insensitive, discriminatory, and offensive if depicted in an improper context), because it doesn't make fun of the specific physical features of Spaniards such as skin color or facial features. If there was a stereotype such as "all Spanish people have long necks", and the Chinese basketball players posed in a photo that was photoshopped to have very long necks, or if they all dressed up as giraffes with the Spanish flag or the image of a bull in front of them, then you can be sure that that would constitute a racist act.


There is a big difference between a difference (like eyes), and a phisical handicap. If somebody in Spain makes a joke about a phisical handicap it is considered as bad taste, but anybody cares about differences. I don't understand how being different can be a problem (I'm sure a lot of guys in Spain think asian eyes are sexy).


You're missing the point completely. Do you really think 1.3 billion people have "slanty-eyes" like how the Spanish basketball team is depicting it? African-Americans tend to have darker skin than other ethnicities due to their differences in levels of melanin. Would you find it inoffensive for the Chinese or German basketball team to pose in blackface?

Irrespective of whether a "lot of guys in Spain think asian eyes are sexy", that doesn't give them or anybody the right to caricature another ethnic group's physical appearance, let alone condone such actions as being anything but racist.
Reignman
Banned User
Posts: 19,281
And1: 391
Joined: Aug 12, 2004
Location: 2014 playoffs at the ACC!

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#73 » by Reignman » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:38 pm

For those saying this is not offensive, would you even attempt to do the samething in Chinatown on Spadina?

I wouldn't, because it's offensive.

It was a dumb move but forgiveable.... if they issue an apology.
Hanson_love
Banned User
Posts: 722
And1: 0
Joined: Feb 28, 2008

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#74 » by Hanson_love » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:41 pm

This has offended me so much I'm literally crying right now...
Grizzled
Starter
Posts: 2,479
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 14, 2005

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#75 » by Grizzled » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:46 pm

I can’t blame the players on this, because they were the low men on a totem pole of a lot of much more powerful people who set this up and approved it. Obviously this is not seen as racist in Spain, because they certainly wouldn’t have done it if they thought it was, but to me in my social context it sure seems racist. There are people who are aware of what is offensive in other cultures and they should have been consulted on an ad like this. Are there so few Asian people in Spain that they just don’t know that this could be seen as offensive? Is it just us North Americans that instantly see this as offensive? This is a tough one to wrap your head around.
I_Like_Dirt
RealGM
Posts: 34,469
And1: 8,722
Joined: Jul 12, 2003
Location: Boardman gets paid!

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#76 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:48 pm

deck wrote:Seriously though, in the age of Chapelle show, South Park and the like, what is everyone getting upset about? This kind of racist humor transcends our society. Yes they are professional athletes and they should be more conscience of how their actions will be perceived, but who really cares? Was anyone physically hurt by this?


Are you seriously comparing Dave Chappelle and this particular Spanish Basketball team photo? I'm going to assume you can tell the difference between the aims of the two different types of "comedy." And there is a reason that Dave Chappelle isn't hired to do Olympic promos by anybody despite the fact that his comedy is actually trying to wear break down differences, which I'm not at all convinced that this photo is trying to do.

Even so, you are right that this photo didn't physically harm anybody directly and is probably not a malicious act. That said, this kind of action is very much reflective of hidden attitudes in our society between what is and isn't deemed acceptable. Clearly, the the Spanish national basketball team feels that it's alright to mock other racial appearances. It doesn't hurt anybody but it comes out in other ways like how people are treated within and without the country and through economic, social and military policies. It's pretty apparent here in Canada and it's definitely apparent in Europe as well. No way this kind of thing would be tolerated if the Olympics were held in Africa and athletes pushed out their lips.

I doubt it would be particularly well-received, either, if, the Olympics are next held in either Canada or the U.S., incoming athletes posed in fat suits to mock the fact that North America is far and away the most obese country. Heck, I don't think that it would have gone over very well had opposing athletes posed in spray-on tan, taped hair on their bodies and greased themselves up to pose for the Barcelona Olympics. Nobody gets hurt in those scenarios, either, but it's pretty clear they're inappropriate and stupid. Heck, nobody gets hurt through racial name-calling, either. If this is what a culture feels is actually funny then, while it isn't necessarily malicious, it's every bit as racist and perhaps even damning than intentional racism because they're completely oblivious to what they're doing wrong; the liberal world constantly makes claims to the contrary and Spain is supposedly a part of that liberal world. This is the complete opposite of Dave Chappelle.
Bucket! Bucket!
Shaazzam
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 27,630
And1: 8,314
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
   

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#77 » by Shaazzam » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:50 pm

Way to drop the hammer ILD.
Imageprops to Turbo_Zone
Meursault
Starter
Posts: 2,494
And1: 1,037
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Location: London, United Kingdom
       

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#78 » by Meursault » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:53 pm

I_Like_Dirt: thank you for posting that. very-well stated. I agree 100%. I'd like to think that an official apology by the Spanish delegation would be redemptive not so much for the apology itself, but allow the potential to understand precisely why it was so offensive to begin with.
Grizzled
Starter
Posts: 2,479
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 14, 2005

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#79 » by Grizzled » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:53 pm

Hanson_love wrote:This has offended me so much I'm literally crying right now...


You are one of the most racially insensitive people on this board. You have made countless racial slurs against Euros yourself. Hopefully there is a lesson in this for you.
Hanson_love
Banned User
Posts: 722
And1: 0
Joined: Feb 28, 2008

Re: Spain's eye-catching faux pas 

Post#80 » by Hanson_love » Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:54 pm

Grizzled wrote:
Hanson_love wrote:This has offended me so much I'm literally crying right now...


You are one of the most racially insensitive people on this board. You have made countless racial slurs against Euros yourself. Hopefully there is a lesson in this for you.


When have i made a racial slur towards europeans?

Return to Toronto Raptors