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Chris Bosh breaks own record

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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#101 » by ImissJordan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:38 pm

Mustard_Tiger wrote:I've never once knocked Bosh's offensive game (except in the clutch). He's a very good, efficient offensive player. The problems for him lie on the other end of the court.


You know, a great poster on this board named Tyler Sherkin (tsherkin) charted four Raptors games recently and found that defensively, Bosh was the most involved and effective help defender on the team, and usually by a large margin. He wrote an article for RealGM about it.

Does he get muscled by bigger guys? Yes. But his defense isn't nearly as awful as you think it is.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#102 » by basketball royalty » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:45 pm

The_Hater wrote:
supersub15 wrote:read more here

Okay, so we all know that Chris Bosh doesn’t drive the ball often enough and never attacks the basket and he’s a soft jump-shooting big man, he said with dripping sarcasm.

...

But those are impressive numbers even to me. And really ought to silence some of the critics, shouldn’t they? They won’t, of course. But they should.



I wonder if the sarcastic quip by Smith was a shot at Leo?

Nothing more irritating than Leo continually stating that CB should have gone to the rack after he misses a wide open jumper.



Or how Leo is now praising Bargs for his decisiveness when he completes a successful drive as opposed to his old mantra of him deciding what to do before he gets the ball. There isn't much of a change in ABs game, I just think his confidence and timing have caught up to his brain.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#103 » by Fats Elmore » Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:50 pm

where is it ImissJordan? I found this: http://the-restricted-zone.blogspot.com/search?q=bosh
but not the realgm article
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#104 » by Paperclip » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:04 pm

After reading 2 pages why am I not surprised people somehow spin something positive into a negative or downplaying it? Geeeeez..................
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#105 » by ImissJordan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:08 pm

mr.ra+mr.re wrote:where is it ImissJordan? I found this: http://the-restricted-zone.blogspot.com/search?q=bosh
but not the realgm article


I am looking for it, too.....it was on the RealGM Home Page forever, and now when I need it I can't find it. :roll:

Paging tsherkin...

Edited to add: Oops, nevermind. Found it: http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_piece ... sive_play/

He also made mention of this in the "Chris Bosh vs. Rasheed Wallace" debate on the Player Comparison board: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=895911
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#106 » by Yuri Vaultin » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:09 pm

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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#107 » by bballsparkin » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:14 pm

How’s been there more often than Kobe, more often than Tim Duncan, more often than Brandon Roy or Shaquille O’Neal?


How's been Smith gets paid to write like this?
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#108 » by J-Roc » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:16 pm

ImissJordan wrote:
mr.ra+mr.re wrote:where is it ImissJordan? I found this: http://the-restricted-zone.blogspot.com/search?q=bosh
but not the realgm article


I am looking for it, too.....it was on the RealGM Home Page forever, and now when I need it I can't find it. :roll:

Paging tsherkin...

Edited to add: Oops, nevermind. Found it: http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_piece ... sive_play/

He also made mention of this in the "Chris Bosh vs. Rasheed Wallace" debate on the Player Comparison board: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=895911


So what's the deal with this? These were observations at one game this year, against a team with no inside presence, and in a game where the team won (ie. things went our way). Is a full report going out which will include recent losses? We don't need to know how this team wins. We need to know why this team loses.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#109 » by ImissJordan » Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:24 pm

J-Roc wrote:So what's the deal with this? These were observations at one game this year, against a team with no inside presence, and in a game where the team won (ie. things went our way). Is a full report going out which will include recent losses? We don't need to know how this team wins. We need to know why this team loses.


No, I added another quote from him in the "Bosh vs. Rasheed" thread. He said he'd charted four games and found that Bosh was by far our best help defender.

The point I am making is that Bosh has limitations (post defense) but he isn't the defensive nightmare some are suggesting.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#110 » by ForeverTFC » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:19 pm

Calderon wrote:
tha-prince wrote:
Calderon wrote:Instead of keeping a grip on the ball, following through his defenders arms, and finishing strong at the basket he throws the ball up in the air, flails his arms, grunts, and gets the foul call.


There are numbers in this thread that show he is one of the best in the league at finishing an And 1. How about the guy is double teamed half the time going up?

I have many criticisms of Bosh's game, but how he gets to the free throw line is not one of them. Its a baseless arguement bashing a player just for the sake of doing it. All the numbers go agaisnt you in this one.


I see stats from 04-05 and 05-06 showing he can convert but in case you forgot we are in 08-09.


You must have selected reading. In an earlier post I showed the figures of bosh shooting the 2s, going to the rim, foul rate and AND 1s.

In case you are interested. 2008/2009 season. Chris Bosh with 53 and1s on the season ranking him seventh in the league.

http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT17.HTM
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#111 » by I_Like_Dirt » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:28 pm

J-Roc wrote:Stats never mean much to me, though I always do appreciate your effort. I watch the games. And when we NEED Bosh to drive, he takes jumpshots. And it would be cool if he'd hit every open J, but he doesn't. Defenders sag off him and dare him to shoot. If defender did that to Dirk, Dirk would hit the shot. Bosh isn't THAT good a shooter.



See, your mistake here is that you're looking at it through the wrong lens. The Raptors need Bosh to do everything on the court. They need a stop down the stretch against a big or against a guard that has been torching their defense all game? Bosh gets that responsibility. They need a key rebound? Bosh gets that responsibility. They need to crack the opposing defense down the stretch? Bosh gets that responsibility. The other guys crack the defense a bit for Bosh giving him more options with the ball? Heck no. That means the Raptors still need to score only Bosh gets to do that without much help from his teammates out there.

Bosh's biggest problem right now is that he's the best Raptors at pretty much everything out there on the floor except for a few things like bringing the ball up the court and 3-point shooting, and even there he's better at getting open for a 3 which closes that gap a lot. As such, the Raptors rely on him for absolutely everything rather than going to their other players because they know those other guys aren't as good.

Ultimately, what would be best for the Raptors AND Bosh, would be to get who can actually be relied upon to play specific roles and take some of those responsibilities away from Bosh. Right now, it's only happening in very small doses. Jose gets to bring the ball up the court and pass to open jumpshooters, but if that option isn't there for him he gets to give it to Bosh and let him do the hard work. Bargnani has recently been taking some of the scoring responsibility off of Bosh which has allowed Bosh to focus more on defense and rebounding, which has been MUCH better of late, even though most people seem to refuse to see it, simply because of the reduced responsibilities on his shoulders. Marion has been taking some of the rebounding responsibilities off his shoulders, too. The result? Bosh is better than ever down the stretch and plays with more energy for the whole game because he doesn't have to do everything. The problem? Those guys still aren't good enough, particularly when it comes to consistency and reliability.

The only guy who fits the description you've been outlining in this thread is Lebron. He's the only guy with the combination of size, speed, quickness, endurance, and perhaps most importantly, strength so that his team can rely on him to do absolutely everything for them at all times. Will Bosh ever be Lebron? No. But blaming the team's only above average starter for the fact that the team is losing more than it's winning is backwards reasoning. The Raptors need more above average starters like Bosh, not less. If paying Bosh ~$21 mil a season scares a person, why on earth wouldn't paying Calderon and Bargnani a combined ~$25 mil a season scare them?
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#112 » by Stugazzi » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:47 pm

The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#113 » by Death Knight » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:54 pm

Stugazzi wrote:The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..


Pretty much. He takes a lot of insignificant free throws at insignificant times. Kind of like stat paddling.

For example. Raptors down by 3-4 pts.............that's when we need him to take it strong. But he settles and misses or screws up............the deficit goes to 8-9...................then he decides to take it strong. Too late Bosh! You should have taken it strong earlier when it was more important.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#114 » by KJS1508 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:57 pm

Stugazzi wrote:The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..


The reason that happens is because of the supporting cast and not Bosh. At the end of games teams take away Bosh driving opportunities. There is no one on our team to take this pressure off him and as a result he is forced to settle for the outside shot.

Also to the guy that says Dirk hits all his shots, how many Dallas games have your watched in the season. The reason Bosh failures stick out more is you watch him more. I have watched Dallas games and seen Dirk struggle with his shot.

The amount of Bosh hate is absurd in this thread. The guy gets to the line more often than any other power forward and that is still not good enough.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#115 » by Morris_Shatford » Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:59 pm

tha-prince wrote:
supersub15 wrote:
ansoncarter wrote:there's probably a stat for this somewhere
hopefully someone's bored enough to look it up


http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT17.HTM


I think everyone should take a look at that page. It will clear up a lot.

I could see some people saying he shoots too many jumpshots. 60% of his attempts are two pointers. But he is in the same league as Nowitzki(74%), Mcdyess(74%),Garnett (71%),Brand (70%), West (68%), Gooden (65%), Aldridge (63%), Ilgauskas (60%), Dunacan (57%). Maybe we don't realize that these two pointers ARE a power forwards game.

Going inside 35% of his attempts he is in the same area as Ilgauskas (35%), Lebron James (36%), Aldridge (34%), Duncan (42%) and Stoudemire (45%).

Lets add that other than a coupel of these guys, no one gets the consisten double team like CB4 which clogs the lane for him.

He is in the top 20 with 77 dunks in the season, 7th in the league with 53 and 1s and and top 20 in getting fouled. Other then Stoudemire, no one in his percenentage group of going inside gets fouled at his rate, showing how tough is it for him in there.

Maybe some of the criticism is unwarranted?


Thanks for the stats,
Really an eye opener for me.

It has also helped me determine the problem with Chris Bosh:

Toronto Raptor's fans.

In this city you are the GREATEST EVER, or a: flopper, euro, scrub, overrated (in Bosh's case even though I suspect Bosh would be an upgrade at the four on most NBA teams)

I think perhaps having a Beans/Bargnani front court next season will result in Raps fans realizing what they had.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#116 » by KJS1508 » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:09 pm

Death Knight wrote:
Stugazzi wrote:The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..


Pretty much. He takes a lot of insignificant free throws at insignificant times. Kind of like stat paddling.

For example. Raptors down by 3-4 pts.............that's when we need him to take it strong. But he settles and misses or screws up............the deficit goes to 8-9...................then he decides to take it strong. Too late Bosh! You should have taken it strong earlier when it was more important.



Yes and I guess this has nothing to do with the fact that the opposing defense has taken the drive away from him.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#117 » by dacrusha » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:10 pm

Death Knight wrote:
Stugazzi wrote:The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..


Pretty much. He takes a lot of insignificant free throws at insignificant times. Kind of like stat paddling.

For example. Raptors down by 3-4 pts.............that's when we need him to take it strong. But he settles and misses or screws up............the deficit goes to 8-9...................then he decides to take it strong. Too late Bosh! You should have taken it strong earlier when it was more important.


Nice anecdotal observations there.

You have any real evidence to back this up?
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#118 » by Death Knight » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:19 pm

dacrusha wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
Stugazzi wrote:The thing is, Bosh shoots a ton of free throws for us, it's just WHEN he shoots those free throws...

It seems whenever we need him to go hard to the rim because we are in a drought, or at the end of the game, he is all about the jumpers, and that sticks out bigtime to fans, casual or not..


Pretty much. He takes a lot of insignificant free throws at insignificant times. Kind of like stat paddling.

For example. Raptors down by 3-4 pts.............that's when we need him to take it strong. But he settles and misses or screws up............the deficit goes to 8-9...................then he decides to take it strong. Too late Bosh! You should have taken it strong earlier when it was more important.


Nice anecdotal observations there.

You have any real evidence to back this up?


What? The games themselves aren't good enough prove?

I wouldn't be coming up with such conclusions if it didn't happen enough for me to notice it.
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#119 » by RocLaFamilia » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:22 pm

I think that is a very interesting stat, however it doesn't take into account that our entire offense is revolved around him. I am throwing a number out there (I am sure someone will prove me wrong), but he has to be taking 60-70% of the teams shots? I'm sure if you look at our team 06-07 team those stats will be down because our offense was spread around a bit better and we had better role players. This year the offense has been put on him, till lately (Bargs).
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Re: Chris Bosh breaks own record 

Post#120 » by dacrusha » Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:24 pm

Death Knight wrote:
dacrusha wrote:
Death Knight wrote:
Pretty much. He takes a lot of insignificant free throws at insignificant times. Kind of like stat paddling.

For example. Raptors down by 3-4 pts.............that's when we need him to take it strong. But he settles and misses or screws up............the deficit goes to 8-9...................then he decides to take it strong. Too late Bosh! You should have taken it strong earlier when it was more important.


Nice anecdotal observations there.

You have any real evidence to back this up?


What? The games themselves aren't good enough prove?

I wouldn't be coming up with such conclusions if it didn't happen enough for me to notice it.


Here's some numbers:

Bosh, per 48 minutes gets to the line 10.8 times per game (among the league leaders as we've seen).

In clutch situations (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) this rate goes up to 17.4 attempts per 48, a huge increase over his regular game rate.

Nice, selective memory you have there.
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