How effective are our Bosh+big man pairings?

[Tommy Gun]

Amir is solid defensively, but not good or anything. it's not a surprise at all that Bosh/Amir is the best D combo on this team, and barely any worse offensively than Bosh/Bargs to boot, but thats because Amir comes in for 20 minutes and plays balls to the wall using all his fouls. I would never say that he's "good" defensively.

[MEDIC]

If Amir continues to add bulk & work on his game, I think he could turn into an Antonia Davis type player in his late 20"s.

The Raptors have to think about the type of players they want to move forward with. Amir is one of those guys. Hard worker with upside.

If Bosh leaves I could see him being our starting PF down the road. Just need a very good C to put next to him & a strong back court.

Amir is the type of player that I like at PF. Hard working, blue collar, energy guy.

Let's build this thing the right way.....with hard nosed bigs & a talented scoring back court.

[Reignman]

Amir is solid defensively, but not good or anything. it's not a surprise at all that Bosh/Amir is the best D combo on this team, and barely any worse offensively than Bosh/Bargs to boot, but thats because Amir comes in for 20 minutes and plays balls to the wall using all his fouls. I would never say that he's "good" defensively.

I wish our other guys used their fouls a bit more like Amir. And big men that try to protect the rim normally do pick up fouls, it's part of playing that role. D12 (best defensive big in the L) gets into foul trouble all the time.

Amir can definitely improve on when / where to use his fouls but it's a breath of fresh air to watch him play on this team.

[Madmax 134]

Another question I have...why do Bosh and Bargnani have such terrible defensive chemistry together? I know Amir is our best defender, but Bosh and Bargs have been playing together since 2006. WTF are they so bad together, despite having played for nearly four years together? It is mindboggling, to me.

Finally, perhaps we should just ensure that when Bosh and Bargs are on the floor at the same time, we have amazing defense at the 1, 2 and 3? I.e., Jack/Weems/Wright/Bosh/Bargs? That way Bosh and Bargs have less to deal with, and can focus only on guarding their own men. I don't have any data to support this particular lineup, just pure speculation.

gold star, I can't figure it out either. I would think it has everything to do with the fact neither of them have the instincts needed to anchor a defense, Rasho is the closest thing we have to that!

You took the words right out of my mouth... That is precisely the lineup I would like to see going forward.

Weems has shown me the willingness to be that fearless defender who will get up on his man and challenge him. Offensively he is a slasher and a pretty good mid range shooter. His jumper looks beautiful he just needs to work on making more, the mechanics are sound.

[VerbalKint]

If Amir continues to add bulk & work on his game, I think he could turn into an Antonia Davis type player in his late 20"s.

I highly doubt that Amir will give up his ball career for baking.
http://www.floweruponflour.com/Welcome.html

[ansoncarter]

remember the playoffs vs Jersey?

It wasn't mikki moore who made bosh's life miserable. It was Jason kidd harassing bosh all series because he didn't have to cover our point guards 3pt shots

if you see amir/bosh for extended minutes, especially for a playoff series, the same thing will happen. Except it won't be a little pg this time, just harassing bosh on his setup. It'll be a 7' center standing beside the paint waiting to seal the drive

fortunately you won't see it because nba coaches wouldn't gift-wrap another team's defence for them and relegate bosh to jumpshooter role. Or 'offensive foul waiting to happen' role

[Strategist1]

Maybe they consider Bosh the C because Bosh grabs and averages more boards a game than Bargs.

[Ripp]

Amir is solid defensively, but not good or anything. it's not a surprise at all that Bosh/Amir is the best D combo on this team, and barely any worse offensively than Bosh/Bargs to boot, but thats because Amir comes in for 20 minutes and plays balls to the wall using all his fouls. I would never say that he's "good" defensively.

I'm not sure we can say he is "solid." You basically have a swing 10 point swing defensively going from Bargs to Amir. That is...ginormous.

I mean, look further on basketballvalue.com. For example, compare the Cleveland Cavaliers to the the lineups with Bosh/Amir..

Code: Select all

Team        Ortg    Drtg    Net
Cavs         112.15    104.09 8.06


Again, compare that to the Bosh+Amir lineup:

Code: Select all

Team        Ortg Drtg Net
Bosh/Amir   112.02  104.61 7.41


I won't go so far as to say that playing Amir 36 minutes a night would have given us the same record as the Cleveland Cavaliers....obviously that isn't quite right. But the point is, Amir appears to be a gamechanger defensively...the Bosh/Bargnani pairings, if viewed as a separate team result in one of the worst defensive teams in the league, while the Bosh/Amir pairings result in one of the best.

If swapping Amir for Bargs takes us from the worst defensive team in the league to the best, the only way that you can believe that Amir is only "solid" is if you believe that Bargnani is one of the worst defenders in the NBA.

[Tony_Montana]

So maybe some of you stathounds can explain this comment by Grange yesterday.

The reality might be that the Raptors’ struggles lie elsewhere – in fact, just about everywhere. According to 82games.com, the Raptors get outperformed at every position on the floor other than centre, according to something they call ‘net PER’, a measurement that calculates not only the production the Raptors get at each position but the production of their opponents from the corresponding spot.

Bosh is the C, Broseidon.

[Undefeated]

There's no doubt in my mind that Amir can develop into a much, much better defensive player, but it doesn't help the fact that Amir defends majority of bench bigs where he'll look much better. Do people really think Amir would be able to hold his ground when he has to go up against quality bigs night in and night out?

Not saying this in a bad way, but Amir was destroyed by Howard almost every time they match up in spot minutes. At least with Bargnani, he can contain D12 once in a while. Would he defend the likes of Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal effectively? I have my doubts.

As I've said, I wouldn't mind giving a shot to see what Amir can do. At this point, I just want the Raptors to win in any way possible.

[nbajam]

It worked here, apparently.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708TOR2.HTM

Yeah it did, but look at this:
..........................................Min. .Off. .Def.
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh..... 555 1.16 1.06
Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-Nesterovic....162 1.18 1.02

Much better with Rasho, a traditional center, beside Bosh.

No doubt it was better, but that doesn't explain why it is so freaking bad.

The following year Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh did this:
[url]
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809TOR2.HTM[/url]

Almost a reversal. Is that not coaching?

That's partly attributable to Parker's decline, but that's besides the point, observe:

#...................Unit..........................Min...Off...Def....+/-
1 Calderon-Parker-Marion-Bargnani-Bosh...384 1.07 1.14 -56
2 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh.....208 1.09 1.16 -32
3 Calderon-Kapono-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal.......176 1.08 1.06 +5
4 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal........142 0.98 0.96 +8
5 Solomon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh......120 1.07 1.03 +6
6 Calderon-Parker-Bargnani-Bosh-O'Neal ....116 0.93 1.15 -52

Lineups in red are O'Neal instead of Barganani. With O'Neal, Offensive Rating drops by 11 points, but Defensive rating drops by 20.

Overall you're 9 points/100 poss. better with O'Neal. We see something similar when looking at Rasho's stats the year before and Amir's this year.

[Volcano]

not really surprising..Bargs is the worst defensive + rebounding C in the league on most nights

[Reignman]

There's no doubt in my mind that Amir can develop into a much, much better defensive player, but it doesn't help the fact that Amir defends majority of bench bigs where he'll look much better. Do people really think Amir would be able to hold his ground when he has to go up against quality bigs night in and night out?

Not saying this in a bad way, but Amir was destroyed by Howard almost every time they match up in spot minutes. At least with Bargnani, he can contain D12 once in a while. Would he defend the likes of Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'neal effectively? I have my doubts.

As I've said, I wouldn't mind giving a shot to see what Amir can do. At this point, I just want the Raptors to win in any way possible.

It's funny that you don't apply that same logic when you say Jack and Jose are equal defenders when Jose has looked better playing against opposing benches.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Observe:

#...................Unit..........................Min...Off...Def....+/-
1 Calderon-Parker-Marion-Bargnani-Bosh...384 1.07 1.14 -56
2 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh.....208 1.09 1.16 -32
3 Calderon-Kapono-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal.......176 1.08 1.06 +5
4 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal........142 0.98 0.96 +8
5 Solomon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh......120 1.07 1.03 +6
6 Calderon-Parker-Bargnani-Bosh-O'Neal ....116 0.93 1.15 -52

Lineups in red are O'Neal instead of Barganani. With O'Neal, Offensive Rating drops by 11 points, but Defensive rating drops by 20.

Overall your 9 points/100 poss. better with O'Neal. We see something similar when looking at Rasho's stats the year before and Amir's this year.

My question wasn't about where it could be better, it was why did the exact same line-up drop pretty dramatically from one year to the next?

And, if Bosh-Bargnani-Calderon can't work together, why is there evidence that it has worked (at a point where Bargnani was less mature of a defender)?

[nbajam]

Observe:

#...................Unit..........................Min...Off...Def....+/-
1 Calderon-Parker-Marion-Bargnani-Bosh...384 1.07 1.14 -56
2 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh.....208 1.09 1.16 -32
3 Calderon-Kapono-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal.......176 1.08 1.06 +5
4 Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bosh-O'Neal........142 0.98 0.96 +8
5 Solomon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh......120 1.07 1.03 +6
6 Calderon-Parker-Bargnani-Bosh-O'Neal ....116 0.93 1.15 -52

Lineups in red are O'Neal instead of Barganani. With O'Neal, Offensive Rating drops by 11 points, but Defensive rating drops by 20.

Overall your 9 points/100 poss. better with O'Neal. We see something similar when looking at Rasho's stats the year before and Amir's this year.

My question wasn't about where it could be better, it was why did the exact same line-up drop pretty dramatically from one year to the next?

And, if Bosh-Bargnani-Calderon can't work together, why is there evidence that it has worked (at a point where Bargnani was less mature of a defender)?

It worked in 07/08 because Parker and Moon were excellent defenders. The point you're missing is that it got even better when you subbed in Rasho. We're talking about Barg's performance in relation to the exact same lineup with a more (much) defensive minded player at C.

[MEDIC]

If Amir continues to add bulk & work on his game, I think he could turn into an Antonia Davis type player in his late 20"s.

I highly doubt that Amir will give up his ball career for baking.
http://www.floweruponflour.com/Welcome.html

LOL.......he may as well if he continues to play for this team.

[ATLTimekeeper]

I'm not missing that point at all. Totally agree.

But, if you need me to repeat what I was getting at, the exact same line-up with Parker, Moon, Jose, Bosh, Bargnani had entirely different results from one year to the next. I don't know if there's a straighter line to draw. Saying Moon and Parker were good defenders, well, that is missing the point.

[isyed]

Excellent thread

[Harry Palmer]

BTW, serious respect for the (that I've seen) so far absence of the usual 'stats don't mean anything' argument.

Not being sarcastic at all.

[_venom_]

Only the absolute die hard Bargnani fans will find ways to flip these stats around and try to explain them. Any outside viewer of this team will be quick to point out that the biggest problem with the Raptors is at Starting C. Bargnani is a decent man to man post defender but he hardly provides any lane intimidation. He never gives a hard foul and almost all his blocks are straight up, never from the weakside. Then there's his complete lack of offensive rebounding and his pitiful defensive rebounding. This doesn't meant that Amir is the answer but he is a better option than Bargnani at this point in time. I desperately wanted the Raptors to go after Haywood at the deadline to put beside Bosh but of course common sense from our GM isn't expected.