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durantbird wrote:Gabe Vincent was drafted only once to this day, in the All Corners of the World draft.

7.5/8.3 FGA is pretty good value for a 3&d guard who is also an established playoff performer. Interesting to see when he'll be drafted again.

It's actually on the expensive side for a backup guard which is what his role would be in these games.

Fadeaway_J wrote:

durantbird wrote:Gabe Vincent was drafted only once to this day, in the All Corners of the World draft.

7.5/8.3 FGA is pretty good value for a 3&d guard who is also an established playoff performer. Interesting to see when he'll be drafted again.

It's actually on the expensive side for a backup guard which is what his role would be in these games.

Yup, more than Beverley/Caruso but does have a bit more oomph offensively.

Goes to show how good that Brent Barry season is at 6 FGA [or whatever it is].

2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Question becomes the double edged sword of his defense vs some of the ATG Cs (Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc). Jokic vs Shaq in particular is a fascinating mental exercise.

wackbone wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Question becomes the double edged sword of his defense vs some of the ATG Cs (Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc). Jokic vs Shaq in particular is a fascinating mental exercise.

I actually think he's a decent post-up defender. He allowed 0.72 PPP in post ups this season which ranked in the 88.4th percentile. I bet he'd do a solid job against old school bigs. Problem is, he cannot defend in space. Opposing teams constantly attack him in the PnR. This wouldn't have been an issue against Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc, but it's a massive issue in the modern game. You gotta pair him with a mobile, defensive-minded PF, that's for sure. Nothing that can't be fixed though. Btw, defensive-minded players are usually relatively cheap, which means you save even more FGAs!

wackbone wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Question becomes the double edged sword of his defense vs some of the ATG Cs (Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc). Jokic vs Shaq in particular is a fascinating mental exercise.

Post defense was never a weakness for Joker. His positioning is exceptional and his hands are quick while he has a ton of lower body strength.

His issue was always about defending in space, but as we have seen, having competent and good defenders around him [who position well and can fight through screens like AG and KCP] eliminates many of his issues defensively.

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Yeah I think the issue is that if you don’t have the right defensive support for him (which is hard to find), the wrong matchup sinks you.

A team that can run a good spread pick and roll and has sufficient talent level will run circles around him. It’s hard to get enough talent to beat him in the regular NBA but it’s possible in our games.

He’s a first rounder but there are still number one type guys you can build with without specific weaknesses that if l’d be taking over him in most pools.

flaco wrote:

wackbone wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Question becomes the double edged sword of his defense vs some of the ATG Cs (Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc). Jokic vs Shaq in particular is a fascinating mental exercise.

I actually think he's a decent post-up defender. He allowed 0.72 PPP in post ups this season which ranked in the 88.4th percentile. I bet he'd do a solid job against old school bigs. Problem is, he cannot defend in space. Opposing teams constantly attack him in the PnR. This wouldn't have been an issue against Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc, but it's a massive issue in the modern game. You gotta pair him with a mobile, defensive-minded PF, that's for sure. Nothing that can't be fixed though.

Honestly, even the defending in space only becomes an issue against certain teams (similar to Shaq). Since we often go back to the 90s or even 80s, a lot of teams aren't really constructed in a way to attack that weakness. My concern with him is always the fact that he's a nonentity as a rim protector, and it's harder to find a 4 who can plug that gap than a 5.

Snakebites wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Yeah I think the issue is that if you don’t have the right defensive support for him (which is hard to find), the wrong matchup sinks you.

A team that can run a good spread pick and roll and has sufficient talent level will run circles around him. It’s hard to get enough talent to beat him in the regular NBA but it’s possible in our games.

He’s a first rounder but there are still number one type guys you can build with without specific weaknesses that if l’d be taking over him in most pools.

Can't think of a single player with zero weaknesses.

• Jordan and LeBron are mediocre 3pt shooters, plus they are very ball dominant for non Point Guards. I've always felt it's challenging to find a good fit at PG alongside them.
• Magic leaves a lot to be desired on D, plus he's nothing special as a go-to scorer.
• Shaq and Wilt are non-threats outside the paint. Abysmal FT shooters as well. Kareem and Timmy have deeper range, but they aren't floor spacers by any means. All of them are effective only in a drop scheme on defense. Hakeem was a black hole as evidenced by his ast/to ratio. He didn't have 3pt range either and relied on post ups which are considered inefficient offense by modern standards. Bill Russell was likely the greatest defender ever, but he was nowhere near the same level on offense.
• Bird was nothing special as an athlete, which limited him as an on-ball defender, although he was still a terrific team defender thanks to his BBIQ.

I could go on and on. No player is perfect. All of them have strengths and weaknesses.

flaco wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Yeah I think the issue is that if you don’t have the right defensive support for him (which is hard to find), the wrong matchup sinks you.

A team that can run a good spread pick and roll and has sufficient talent level will run circles around him. It’s hard to get enough talent to beat him in the regular NBA but it’s possible in our games.

He’s a first rounder but there are still number one type guys you can build with without specific weaknesses that if l’d be taking over him in most pools.

Can't think of a single player with zero weaknesses.

• Jordan and LeBron are mediocre 3pt shooters, plus they are very ball dominant for non Point Guards. I've always felt it's challenging to find a good fit at PG alongside them.
• Magic leaves a lot to be desired on D, plus he's nothing special as a go-to scorer.
• Shaq and Wilt are non-threats outside the paint. Abysmal FT shooters as well. Kareem and Timmy have deeper range, but they aren't floor spacers by any means. All of them are effective only in a drop scheme on defense. Hakeem was a black hole as evidenced by his ast/to ratio. He didn't have 3pt range either and relied on post ups which are considered inefficient offense by modern standards. Bill Russel was likely the greatest defender ever, but he was nowhere near the same level on offense.
• Bird was nothing special as an athlete, which limited him as an on-ball defender, although he was still a terrific team defender thanks to his BBIQ.

I could go on and on. No player is perfect. All of them have strengths and weaknesses.

Weaknesses as players sure.

I’d argue that with Jokic your TEAM has a specific weakness, unless you can pair him with KG or something. It’s easy to find shooters around Lebron or MJ. Easy to find versatile defenders and rim protection for Bird/Magic.

Harder to cover for Jokic.

wackbone wrote:

flaco wrote:2023 Jokic is getting better and better. If he wins the title, imo he's in the conversation for the #1 pick in most of our games. Not arguing he's better than Jordan or LeBron, but Finals MVP Jokic averaging practically a triple double at only 14.8 FGA may be better value than Jordan at 22.4 FGA depending on the talent pool.

Question becomes the double edged sword of his defense vs some of the ATG Cs (Shaq, Kareem, Hakeem, etc). Jokic vs Shaq in particular is a fascinating mental exercise.

Post defense was never a weakness for Joker. His positioning is exceptional and his hands are quick while he has a ton of lower body strength.

His issue was always about defending in space, but as we have seen, having competent and good defenders around him [who position well and can fight through screens like AG and KCP] eliminates many of his issues defensively.

Snakebites wrote:

flaco wrote:

Snakebites wrote:Yeah I think the issue is that if you don’t have the right defensive support for him (which is hard to find), the wrong matchup sinks you.

A team that can run a good spread pick and roll and has sufficient talent level will run circles around him. It’s hard to get enough talent to beat him in the regular NBA but it’s possible in our games.

He’s a first rounder but there are still number one type guys you can build with without specific weaknesses that if l’d be taking over him in most pools.

Can't think of a single player with zero weaknesses.

• Jordan and LeBron are mediocre 3pt shooters, plus they are very ball dominant for non Point Guards. I've always felt it's challenging to find a good fit at PG alongside them.
• Magic leaves a lot to be desired on D, plus he's nothing special as a go-to scorer.
• Shaq and Wilt are non-threats outside the paint. Abysmal FT shooters as well. Kareem and Timmy have deeper range, but they aren't floor spacers by any means. All of them are effective only in a drop scheme on defense. Hakeem was a black hole as evidenced by his ast/to ratio. He didn't have 3pt range either and relied on post ups which are considered inefficient offense by modern standards. Bill Russel was likely the greatest defender ever, but he was nowhere near the same level on offense.
• Bird was nothing special as an athlete, which limited him as an on-ball defender, although he was still a terrific team defender thanks to his BBIQ.

I could go on and on. No player is perfect. All of them have strengths and weaknesses.

Weaknesses as players sure.

I’d argue that with Jokic your TEAM has a specific weakness, unless you can pair him with KG or something. It’s easy to find shooters around Lebron or MJ. Easy to find versatile defenders and rim protection for Bird/MJ.

Harder to cover for Jokic.

Fair enough, not all positions are equally important on defense. For instance, it's relatively easy to hide a weak defensive wing. It's practically impossible to hide a weak defensive Center. That said, the 2023 season is proving beyond doubt that it's possible to build a legit contending team around Jokic despite his defense. This has always been the main criticism against him. The Nuggets don't even have a rim protector at the 4 (which is Fade's main concern with him). Gordon is a switchable mobile swing, not a rim protector.

flaco wrote:

Snakebites wrote:

flaco wrote:Can't think of a single player with zero weaknesses.

• Jordan and LeBron are mediocre 3pt shooters, plus they are very ball dominant for non Point Guards. I've always felt it's challenging to find a good fit at PG alongside them.
• Magic leaves a lot to be desired on D, plus he's nothing special as a go-to scorer.
• Shaq and Wilt are non-threats outside the paint. Abysmal FT shooters as well. Kareem and Timmy have deeper range, but they aren't floor spacers by any means. All of them are effective only in a drop scheme on defense. Hakeem was a black hole as evidenced by his ast/to ratio. He didn't have 3pt range either and relied on post ups which are considered inefficient offense by modern standards. Bill Russel was likely the greatest defender ever, but he was nowhere near the same level on offense.
• Bird was nothing special as an athlete, which limited him as an on-ball defender, although he was still a terrific team defender thanks to his BBIQ.

I could go on and on. No player is perfect. All of them have strengths and weaknesses.

Weaknesses as players sure.

I’d argue that with Jokic your TEAM has a specific weakness, unless you can pair him with KG or something. It’s easy to find shooters around Lebron or MJ. Easy to find versatile defenders and rim protection for Bird/MJ.

Harder to cover for Jokic.

Fair enough, not all positions are equally important on defense. For instance, it's relatively easy to hide a weak defensive wing. It's practically impossible to hide a weak defensive Center. That said, the 2023 season is proving that it's possible to build a legit contending team with Jokic despite his defense. This has always been the main criticism against him. The Nuggets don't even have a rim protector at the 4 (which is Fade's main concern with him). Gordon is a swiatchable mobile swing, not a rim protector.

It’s totally possible in the real NBA.

Harder in games where every team will have 4 all stars in the starting lineup including at least one guy at or near his level. These games are less forgiving of weaknesses than real life is.

He’s viable in these games, but I think those concerns keep him out of the discussion for the first pick in pools with little restriction.

I see Jokic and Magic being similar caliber picks.

Both prevent weaknesses and while Joker's is more profound defensively, his offensive value is higher given his shooting ability and rebounding advantage [even comparing Magic to other PFs].

Snakebites wrote:

flaco wrote:

Snakebites wrote:Weaknesses as players sure.

I’d argue that with Jokic your TEAM has a specific weakness, unless you can pair him with KG or something. It’s easy to find shooters around Lebron or MJ. Easy to find versatile defenders and rim protection for Bird/MJ.

Harder to cover for Jokic.

Fair enough, not all positions are equally important on defense. For instance, it's relatively easy to hide a weak defensive wing. It's practically impossible to hide a weak defensive Center. That said, the 2023 season is proving that it's possible to build a legit contending team with Jokic despite his defense. This has always been the main criticism against him. The Nuggets don't even have a rim protector at the 4 (which is Fade's main concern with him). Gordon is a swiatchable mobile swing, not a rim protector.

It’s totally possible in the real NBA.

Harder in games where every team will have 4 all stars in the starting lineup including at least one guy at or near his level. These games are less forgiving of weaknesses than real life is.

He’s viable in these games, but I think those concerns keep him out of the discussion for the first pick in pools with little restriction.

Let's say you pair him with Rodman / Kirilenko / Bobby Jones, etc (assuming KG is an unrealistic option). I don't see a big weakness tbh. Jokic drops in the PnR. The point-of-attack defender goes over the pick to deny the 3 against reliable shooters or under the pick against mediocre shooters. It's a perfectly valid strategy. Just because most teams switch, it doesn't mean all teams should do the same.

Sure, it's an ussue against teams spamming the spread PnR (everybody can shoot excluding the screener) or running a 5-out motion offense. More often than not, it won't be an issue cause we select plenty of old school players.

I find 23 Jokic's defense pretty decent honestly, he moves reasonably well to me, has good hands and is a basketball genius. But I guess it's more the opportunity cost of not having an ELITE defender. Pau Gasol had a solid defensive impact in the Lakers championship years and people still don't like using him at center that much because even slightly above average is going to be one of the worse starting defensive centers in most drafts.

How much do you weigh regular season vs playoff performances? I'm thinking about this year's Duncan Robinson. He hasn't been really good in RS, but became very effective again in the playoff and a key role player in Miami. And his 23' version only costs 5.6.

wackbone wrote:https://www.crossovergrid.com/

Great game. There's also https://www.hoopgrids.com which also has access to its previous games

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2310420

Curious to see everyone's response.