Raw plus/minus for 93-94, 94-95, 95-96 seasons

[penbeast0]

Very cool. Initial thoughts:

-Calm down about McMillan. He played limited minutes.
-Interesting seeing more of the same from '90s Hawks players. Their rotations seem like they must have been extraordinarily simplistic under Lenny Wilkens seeing the way their players clump together.
-Malone clearly beating Stockton is really worth noting. As I've been saying, I wanted to see if Stockton's +/- trend really continued back through the S & M prime. Not looking likely.
-Ewing's raw +/- looking nothing like Hakeem or Robinson...or Mutombo.
-Miller against looking like one of the top 10 most impressive guys out there
-Payton's worth a look. Once again, a Karl star looks like someone Karl doesn't need, at least in the regular season. Don't go to crazy over Payton though. Team played great with him. All we're seeing in the net score is a relic from a limited sample size showing an OFF performance that couldn't possibly be maintained.

Wasn't McMillan playing most of the minutes that Payton wasn't? If I remember, they used McMillan with Payton sometimes but mainly he was the other PG there taking the same role. So, if McMillan was having a monster season in limited minutes, that hurts Payton's on/off numbers.

[colts18]

Is it sad that I am more excited for some uploads of a meaningless stat from 20 years than I am of the start of the regular season

[ceiling raiser]

Is it sad that I am more excited for some uploads of a meaningless stat from 20 years than I am of the start of the regular season

Raw plus/minus doesn't tell us a huge deal, but even with its flaws, it is new data that has some value. Pretty much anything that allows us to focus less on the box score is a tremendous asset IMO.

That being said, fortunately we don't have to choose. Should give us something to discuss until the season begins, and allow us to maybe look at some players in a different way.

[colts18]

Raw plus/minus doesn't tell us a huge deal, but even with its flaws, it is new data that has some value. Pretty much anything that allows us to focus less on the box score is a tremendous asset IMO.

That being said, fortunately we don't have to choose. Should give us something to discuss until the season begins, and allow us to maybe look at some players in a different way.

This board is the only group of people who are waiting in anticipation for 20 year old obscure stats.

I'm waiting on the 96 plus/minus to see if MJ can break LeBron's record

Top 10 total on court plus/minus from 94-95, 97-14 (20 seasons):
1. 09 James +871
2. 97 Jordan +818
3. 97 Pippen +807
4. 08 Pierce +784
5. 03 Nowitzki +778
6. 97 Hornacek +775
7. 97 Malone +768
8. 07 Duncan +746
9. 08 Garnett +737
10. 00 Shaq +706

[ceiling raiser]

Raw plus/minus doesn't tell us a huge deal, but even with its flaws, it is new data that has some value. Pretty much anything that allows us to focus less on the box score is a tremendous asset IMO.

That being said, fortunately we don't have to choose. Should give us something to discuss until the season begins, and allow us to maybe look at some players in a different way.

This board is the only group of people who are waiting in anticipation for 20 year old obscure stats.

I'm waiting on the 96 plus/minus to see if MJ can break LeBron's record

Top 10 total on court plus/minus from 94-95, 97-14 (20 seasons):
1. 09 James +871
2. 97 Jordan +818
3. 97 Pippen +807
4. 08 Pierce +784
5. 03 Nowitzki +778
6. 97 Hornacek +775
7. 97 Malone +768
8. 07 Duncan +746
9. 08 Garnett +737
10. 00 Shaq +706

Well, do we have the on court/off court numbers for 97 MJ and Scottie? Assuming rotations were similar, maybe we can get an idea of how they'd look in 96 based on the 97 numbers.

Anyhow though, I sent Pollack my check on 9/4 (unfortunately, those and money orders were the only payment options). He said the books were ready to be sent out, so it's just the time it takes to go from NY->PA->NY. Hoping they'll arrive by the end of this week.

[colts18]

Well, do we have the on court/off court numbers for 97 MJ and Scottie? Assuming rotations were similar, maybe we can get an idea of how they'd look in 96 based on the 97 numbers.

97 numbers for MJ and Pippen:

MJ:
+14 on court per 100 poss
+4.3 off court
+9.7 Net

Pippen:
+13.9 on court
+5 off court
+9 Net

If you extrapolate their 97 numbers into 96 assuming they have the same plus/minus ratio.

MJ:
+927
+15.9 on court
+4.9 off court
+11 Net

Pippen:
+915
+15.8 on court
+5.6 off court
+10.1 Net

It would be hard for MJ to not break LeBron's record (+871). The 96 Bulls were a +1004 team

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I'm curious about who was tracking that stat? Was it from a play by play file or was it done by box score? Did someone watch every game after the season and recorded plus/minus?

God bless Harvey Pollack.
His archive has an incredible amount of unofficial stats since the beginning of the NBA.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

My observations here:

-Horace Grant edges Pippen again (a trend from the late 90s +/-)

-Divac really could be underrated by a lot

Shawn Bradley imo is really underrated. He was very limited but had a very material impact.

[Dipper 13]

Is it sad that I am more excited for some uploads of a meaningless stat from 20 years than I am of the start of the regular season

Many posters on RealGM use the plus/minus and on/off splits as a primary method of determining how good a player is/was. For some it is the only tool they use. I would not call it meaningless, at least not here.

[ceiling raiser]

95-96 and 96-97 books arrived!

I'll upload the plus/minus numbers when I have a chance.

[ceiling raiser]

Edited the links into the OP:

94-95:

http://i59.tinypic.com/122k8js.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2e52ozo.jpg

95-96

http://i61.tinypic.com/312jwar.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/2vs47km.jpg

[SideshowBob]

Edited the links into the OP:

94-95:

http://i59.tinypic.com/122k8js.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2e52ozo.jpg

95-96

http://i61.tinypic.com/312jwar.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/2vs47km.jpg

Fantastic!

In 96, Jordan +980, Pippen +899 so both top Lebron in 2009

[Dipper 13]

Barkley still looking solid even in decline, average on/off is +7.3 for both years.

[ceiling raiser]

Using B-R's possessions, converted this into per 100 on/off for all players he provides data for. There is an inconstancy in the data (1 player listed twice), and I'm sure there is some human error in general, but nothing else stood out.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

Thoughts:
-Robinson and Karl looking awesome
-Kevin Willis? Looks like lineup co-linearity is a possibility there, but still a crazy number.
-Dikembe looks good again
-Reggie looking good
-Rice too
-Drexler continues to bomb in this kind of +/- data... +0.3. Not a good sign.
-Richmond also with a bad number
-Payton -- woah. Anyone have an explanation for this? Pretty startling number

In case you're interested/have free time, would love if you could do the same calculations/analysis of 94-95 and 95-96.

[SideshowBob]

So doing some quick estimation on the Bulls poss with Jordan/Pippen On/Off the floor

96 Jordan (3090 MP, 5863 Poss), +16.7 On, +1.5 Off, +15.2 Net

96 Pippen, (2825 MP, 5360 Poss), +16.8 On, +4.9 Off, +11.8 Net

Someone let me know if I miscalculated. The ON possessions are just an estimate based on the proportion of minutes played.

[Dipper 13]

So doing some quick estimation on the Bulls poss with Jordan/Pippen On/Off the floor

96 Jordan (3090 MP, 5863 Poss), +16.7 On, +1.5 Off, +15.2 Net

96 Pippen, (2825 MP, 5360 Poss), +16.8 On, +4.9 Off, +11.8 Net

Someone let me know if I miscalculated. The ON possessions are just an estimate based on the proportion of minutes played.

96 Rodman +14.7 On, +12.0 Off, +2.7 Net

[colts18]

Plus/Minus for some stars of the 96 season

Code: Select all

   Drob   MJ   Pippen   Rodman   Stockton   Malone   Shaq
On   10.7   16.7   16.8   14.7   11.0   10.0   11.3
Off   -5.9   1.5   4.9   12.0   -3.4   -3.4   1.0
Net   16.6   15.2   11.8   2.7   14.3   13.4   10.3



[colts18]

1995 Plus/Minus numbers

Code: Select all

   Shaq   Hakeem   Pippen   MJ Robinson   Malone   Stockton
On   10.5   5.6   8.2   7.1   10.7   10.6   10.1
Off   -1.4   -6.2   -4.1   4.8   -9.1   0.3   3.9
Net   11.9   11.7   12.3   2.3   19.8   10.2   6.2


[Dipper 13]

David Robinson 3 Year Average from 1994-96

On Court: +10.3
Off Court: -8.5
On/Off: +18.8

[drza]

Edited the links into the OP:

94-95:

http://i59.tinypic.com/122k8js.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/2e52ozo.jpg

95-96

http://i61.tinypic.com/312jwar.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/2vs47km.jpg

I'm unreasonably excited. And my boss keeps walking by so I haven't even be able to really look at it yet...