Quotatious wrote:ronnymac2 wrote:Well let's start with the perimeter players since it's easier to compare. What makes you say KD and T-Mac are so much better than peak Penny? Penny was the best post player, passer/playmaker, and decision-maker out of the 3, and he was a devastating scorer, too.
I think that Durant's scoring volume/efficiency combination, which is one of the very best of all-time, makes him a clearly better overall player than Penny. Also, Durant is the better rebounder (well, that's obvious, he's a 6'10''/6'11'' SF compared to a 6'7'' combo guard), and while Penny was a much better ballhandler/playmaker, KD isn't bad in these areas anymore (speaking of 2014 Durant). Defensively, I don't think there's any significant gap, to be honest. Penny was a bit better, but not by much, and he wasn't really a game changer on D. Above average, also got 2 steals per game, but that's about it. Durant has a really big edge in stats like PER and WS/48 (29.8 to 24.6 PER, 29.5 to 22.9 WS/48).
I think that Durant is already roughly in the same ballpark as peak Wade, Kobe and T-Mac (top 15-20 level), while Hardaway to me is on the very same level as Drexler (about top 25-30) - still really great, but more like a second tier superstar, not top 3 level, like Kobe/Wade/T-Mac/Durant.
Now, how about T-Mac? He's IMO at the same level as Durant, in terms of peak. He's a much less efficient scorer than KD (although still very efficient, +4.5% league average TS, +3.2% eFG in 2003), but he also played on a worse team, where he had to create a lot more for himself on a consistent basis, and a lot more of Durant's shots were assisted on. McGrady was a better ballhandler and playmaker than Durant, in fact his AST/TOV% ratio was clearly better than Penny's, despite the fact that McGrady was a SG (T-Mac's assist/turnover ratio was +3.57, compared to +2.39 for PH), so combined with his advantage in terms of scoring/USG% (Penny was a bit more efficient as a scorer than T-Mac, but their volume and usage% isn't even worth comparing), I think it's very clear that McGrady was the better overall offensive player. Penny was better defensively, but that's largely dependent on team structure - McGrady had to carry his team offensively, all by himself, so he couldn't give consistent effort defensively, while Penny played on a strong, winning team, so it was much easier for him to play well on both ends (even with Shaq missing a ton of RS games in 1996, Penny's team was still clearly better than T-Mac's, as Hardaway had Horace Grant, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott - don't even get me started on Tracy's teammates in 2003...). Also, McGrady's advantage over Hardaway in PER and WS/48 is very similar to Durant's (really big).
It's true that Penny was the best post player of the 3, but how valuable is that in the grand scheme of things? I don't think it's all that important, to be honest. As a decision maker, I think that T-Mac easily rivals Penny, seeing his overall efficiency (on a bad team, which is IMO a pretty important notion here).
I wouldn't call Penny a "devastating" scorer. He was certainly a very, very good scorer, but "devastating" applies to Durant and McGrady (32 PPG on great efficiency is devastating, not 21-22 PPG on a very similar efficiency)
Good post. Penny's argument would center around the skillset advantages I've talked about as well as Orlando's team ORTGs, Penny's playoff performances, and Penny's portability (not that playing with Shaq is difficult, but we saw Penny prove it with and without Shaq, especially in 1997).
1995 Orlando put up a historic offense with Shaq and Penny leading the charge (+6.8, broke the vaunted 115 ORTG). This with Dennis Scott only playing 24 MPG and a thin bench (I swear those Shaq/Grant/Choker/Scott/Penny lineups put up 130 ORTGs on-court in 1995 and 1996, because their bench is bad). Penny was the lead playmaker (and only ball-handler in the starting lineup) and second leading scorer: 20.9 points, 7.2 assists, 59.9%TS. The turnovers are high, but again, Orlando's offense was truly elite, and technically they were above average at taking care of the ball in the REG SEA in 1995.
Penny was great in the playoffs, too, helping Orlando destroy Indy's defense with a 120 Team ORTG (Penny: 19.6 points, 18/38 on 3's, 64.5%TS). He and Shaq dominate against Houston, but they get little help.
Then 1996, Orlando with another strong offensive showing, buoyed by Penny (played 1,000+ minutes more than Shaq): 3rd-ranked 112.9 ORTG (+5.3, #1 in eFG% again). Penny with his peak REG SEA: 21.7 points, 7.1 assists, 60.5%TS, lowered the turnovers to 2.8 per game. Upped the USG% from 1995 yet improved his ORTG. He did something like 25/6/5 without Shaq in 1996, too.
In the playoffs, Penny helped ORL to historic offensive dominance in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs (120+ ORTG in both series), then went up against the GOAT perimeter defense (Jordan and Pippen) and dropped 25.5 points on 55.2%TS despite being the only ball-handler and crap shooting around him. Penny and Shaq were again the only players to play well.
Penny and Orlando battled injury in 1997 but then faced Miami (#1 defense, -6.1) in the first round. Penny dropped 31 points on 57.5%TS. Over the last 3 games in the series, Hardaway dropped 38.7 points, 8.3 rebounds, 4 assists, 2.3 steals, 1.7 blocks, 1.3 turnovers, 61.8%TS, 35.8 USG%, 130 individual ORTG. This was a defense that did a better job defending Michael Jordan than pretty much any defense ever did (MJ's stats: 30.2 points on 47.5%TS in the ECF).
I don't know. That 3-year stretch to me puts him in KD's and T-Mac's company. Penny never showed himself to be susceptible to any man defender slowing him down like KD has thanks to his elite post game (Tony Allen, even Chris Paul in 2014 for a limited time slowed KD). Penny did as well against an elite postseason defense with no help as T-Mac ever did, too. He co-lead an all-time elite offense in 1995.
I always thought Penny played solid defense, too. Normally he had to defend quick point guards because again, ORL's talented-but-unbalanced starting lineup forced his hand. But he played well against wings.