Political Roundtable Part XXXII

[Runner300]

At this point it is not worth debating facts on the sources of information. Israel acknowledges its actions, but justifies them. The above quotes are from the UN, not from Aljazeera. Israel did not deny that these actions occurred, they denied the intent behind them. That yes they were doing all of these things, but that you cannot prove their that intent is genocide. Even if the effect is.

That is the 'playing games with words' that you refer to.

Only by "words" we mean the deaths of 14,500 children.

So lets not debate about sources. Lets debate solutions.

Give me a solution. Tell me what you think Israel and Palestinians should do in order to have peace with each other.

Is this a solution? Destruction of 70% of all housing in the area to kettle and contain a refugee population into a narrow area looks more like what Germany did in Poland in WW2. The precursor to the 'final solution'.

I can tell you what the US should do. The same thing we do with any bad actor. Stop sending weapons when they are used against populations not military targets. Push for ceasefire. Broker talks. Use the leverage of our aid to insist on inspections/oversight/investigations. Work with the UN to bring war criminals to court and enforce justice. Hamas and Israel alike. Show that justice works hand in hand with law.

Post ceasefire? Same as after many conflicts. Rebuild. Repair. Humanitarian aid. Hospitals. Enforce law. Israel must arrest settlers that enflame tensions with illegal seizures of property. Palestinian authorities do likewise on militant actors. The latter will not be easy given that even a partial genocide tends to radicalize the survivors. 15,000 dead kids have that effect.

But all your other arguments are pointless obfuscation and distraction.

War crimes are not made legal by pointing at other crimes elsewhere and going 'yeah well, Sudan is also happening, why are you not bothering those guys'. Same thing: economic sanctions, pressure, attempt to bring justice. As the US has been attempting for decades in that region. The difference is a matter of dollars and influence. We send many more billions to Israel, we should have proportionate influence over their action and requirement to follow international law. I do have a say what is done with my tax dollars.

Stop excusing the inexcusable and casting blame on propaganda. If your country is misbehaving, hold them to account and insist they represent you in the best of all possible ways. A genocide in Sudan does not cancel a genocide in Palestine. Stop using infantile arguments that we learned were not justifications even in grade school. "He did it too..." does not cancel your own bad actions. Insist Israel does better, as in this case I insist mine does as well.

You have no clue, not a slightest idea, how critical the situation here is.
How horrible was the 7.11. edit:7.10.
How horrible it still is.
No matter how much I hate Bibi, I agree with one thing he said: if we don't have the weapons, we will fight with our nails and teeth.
We're fighting for our existence here and worst is still ahead of us.

[doclinkin]

What's to debate about colleges? I see protests asking that Universities divest themselves financially from Israel while there is a war being prosecuted against a captive populace. That while they are paying tuition (and borrowing $ to do so) the organizations they support be mindful of where the money goes.

Is your argument that Israel has absolute right to that money?

Because I don't see students asking for 70% of the housing of Israel to be destroyed. I see peaceful protests that power should not abuse its privilege. I don't see students firebombing synagogues etc. But signing up to take care of refugees, and requiring their school administration uphold principles of law and human rights.

So terms like "bloodlust" and "hatred of the successful minority" regarding student protests, are ways of stirring up conflict and deflecting from the actual aim and mission of these protests, which in the main seems to be to ask for humane treatment of a populace of non combatants. The people, not militant actors.

The mindset that 'we are outnumbered therefore we must "do unto others BEFORE they do unto us -- or to everybody in case they might be thinking of doing unto us" ' --becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. That way does lie genocide if everybody subscribes to it.

[doclinkin]

You have no clue, not a slightest idea, how critical the situation here is.
How horrible was the 7.11.
How horrible it still is.
No matter how much I hate Bibi, I agree with one thing he said: if we don't have the weapons, we will fight with our nails and teeth.
We're fighting for our existence here and worst is still ahead of us.

October 7?
I do not minimize the deaths of 1200 people and any of the abuses against humanity that accompany it. There is no erasing the horror of such an act. Not by war nor law. I have heard from a survivor whose family lived their safe room for days while Hamas terrorists stalked his town looting and executing his parents and neighbors.

Likewise I do not minimize the deaths of the ~32,552+ Palestinians killed in Gaza since Oct. 7. Every single kid who was crushed under a building had a mom who loved him too.

I believe that retaliatory genocide is not the just response for an act of terrorism. That it only magnifies the atrocity and will not make Israel more safe, but less so.

I attended a dinner hosted by faith leaders of Muslim and Jewish faith, among others. I met families, mothers and kids who are refugees from Palestine. They don't want war, they just want their kids to go to school and have futures same as any other mom, Israeli or American or anywhere. As you hate Netanyahu, they hate Hamas for inciting this. It is these people on both sides who suffer the most when evil people of power are trading atrocities.

[Runner300]

You have no clue, not a slightest idea, how critical the situation here is.
How horrible was the 7.11.
How horrible it still is.
No matter how much I hate Bibi, I agree with one thing he said: if we don't have the weapons, we will fight with our nails and teeth.
We're fighting for our existence here and worst is still ahead of us.

October 7?
I do not minimize the deaths of 1200 people and any of the abuses against humanity that accompany it. There is no erasing the horror of such an act. Not by war nor law. I have heard from a survivor whose family lived their safe room for days while Hamas terrorists stalked his town looting and executing his parents and neighbors.

Likewise I do not minimize the deaths of the ~32,552+ Palestinians killed in Gaza since Oct. 7. Every single kid who was crushed under a building had a mom who loved him too.

I believe that retaliatory genocide is not the just response for an act of terrorism. That it only magnifies the atrocity and will not make Israel more safe, but less so.

I attended a dinner hosted by faith leaders of Muslim and Jewish faith, among others. I met families, mothers and kids who are refugees from Palestine. They don't want war, they just want their kids to go to school and have futures same as any other mom, Israeli or American or anywhere. As you hate Netanyahu, they hate Hamas for inciting this. It is these people on both sides who suffer the most when evil people of power are trading atrocities.

I hate Netaniyahu, so i go to protests, block streets and vote for someone else.
What do the Palestinian do?
Do you know why 70% of Gaza is levelled? Because literally, LITERALLY every other house has a tunnel exit in it or weapons stashed.
Every other playground has rockets buried ready to fire.
They have been planning this for years, digging hundreds of miles of tunnels, burying billions of UNRWA dollars in the ground.

They had a deal with Hezbollah to attack together (unconfirmed info).
Israel got lucky , because Hamas saw an opportunity to strike during the Nova Festival and forgot to inform Hezbollah.
We're not on our knees (yet) only because 2 armies weren't on the same page for a moment.

30000 Palestinian deaths is a tragedy.
And there's no hope for the rest.

[dobrojim]

This ish kept me up last night (sorry, I know, poor me).

I’m in Richmond today after my son’s graduation yesterday.

There is not much sympathy I’m seeing/hearing for Israel’s position
among the young college age people to put it mildly. Biden needs to
pull a Jimmy Carter somehow or this could have very undesirable
ramifications not just in Gaza.

There is a reason why college age people 'lack sympathy' for Israel's position. And critical thinking is not it.

This issue is very complex and I know I can't say much about the Darfour civil war (which has around than 150,000 deaths since 2023 per wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Sudan_(2023%E2%80%93present) ).. but I wonder how come no one is talking about it?

Why is the UN and world not outraged about this unfathomable number of casualties?
Be critical in your thinking..
Because no one cares when people kill their own / or when no political gain can be made by interfering..
As noted before - these are 'usful idiot' accroding to Hamas and Islamic chaliphate pursuers..

Tens of thousands of dead non-combatants doesn't require a whole lot of critical thinking.
It's indefensible. Darfour is a horrible situation but one that we (the US) have a much less
direct or comprehensive level of complicity for or with.

[dobrojim]

I think this is new news. Shocking news that Golfy cheated/stole money from the tax system.

BTW, does anyone know what is happening with the bond for his appeal in the business fraud
case he lost. How soon will that appeal be heard? The bond would be forfeit if/when he loses the appeal.

Watch on YouTube

[pancakes3]

At this point it is not worth debating facts on the sources of information. Israel acknowledges its actions, but justifies them. The above quotes are from the UN, not from Aljazeera. Israel did not deny that these actions occurred, they denied the intent behind them. That yes they were doing all of these things, but that you cannot prove their that intent is genocide. Even if the effect is.

That is the 'playing games with words' that you refer to.

Only by "words" we mean the deaths of 14,500 children.

So lets not debate about sources. Lets debate solutions.

Give me a solution. Tell me what you think Israel and Palestinians should do in order to have peace with each other.

Single state where all people are given an equal right to vote.

[2Fluffy4U]

Single state? You mean marrying Israel with Palestinians? How is this solving the problem?

[Zonkerbl]

Well that is one way to approach it. Representative parliament system I assume, not first past the post like we have.

[2Fluffy4U]

Not sure I got the logic..
One state is like saying France and Germany should become a one state.. what am I missing here?

[dckingsfan]

So lets not debate about sources. Lets debate solutions.

Give me a solution. Tell me what you think Israel and Palestinians should do in order to have peace with each other.

I would start with not murdering children... that would actually be a really good start.

[2Fluffy4U]

So lets not debate about sources. Lets debate solutions.

Give me a solution. Tell me what you think Israel and Palestinians should do in order to have peace with each other.

I would start with not murdering children... that would actually be a really good start.

Im going along with your suggestions.
Israel ceases fire immediatly now and unconditionally. And promises to not attack in Gaza ever again.
What would be the next move for peace?

[dckingsfan]

So lets not debate about sources. Lets debate solutions.

Give me a solution. Tell me what you think Israel and Palestinians should do in order to have peace with each other.

I would start with not murdering children... that would actually be a really good start.

Im going along with your suggestions.
Israel ceases fire immediately now and unconditionally (withdraws out of Palestine, completely). And promises to not attack in Gaza ever again.

What would be the next move for peace?

Well, that would be along way toward a solution (with my added suggestion).

The next step is to have an elected government of Palestine (that would have to exclude Hamas). Once that is complete, then you could have negotiations between the two governments.

[2Fluffy4U]

I would start with not murdering children... that would actually be a really good start.

Im going along with your suggestions.
Israel ceases fire immediately now and unconditionally (withdraws out of Palestine, completely). And promises to not attack in Gaza ever again.

What would be the next move for peace?

Well, that would be along way toward a solution (with my added suggestion).

The next step is to have an elected government of Palestine (that would have to exclude Hamas). Once that is complete, then you could have negotiations between the two governments.

I think we are progressing here

Can you detail the borders Israel should withdraw from in order for it to completly and undisputadly be out of Palestine?

[pancakes3]

Not sure I got the logic..
One state is like saying France and Germany should become a one state.. what am I missing here?

If you want 2 state, you need to recognize their sovereignty and stop settling on their land.

If you want 1 state, you need to give them representation.

Because right now, the plan seems to be to bomb and otherwise choke out the civilians until they all flee, and you annex the rubble. Forcing Egypt to blink, and take in refugees, vacating the land for Israeli occupation.

You can't just say "we only care about hamas, and while civilian casualties are a tragedy, it's a necessary cost to root out hamas" because the endgame is leading towards a destruction of all people in an effort to destroy hamas.

[pancakes3]

Regardless, the details of this needs to be hammered out during a cease fire.

[2Fluffy4U]

Not sure I got the logic..
One state is like saying France and Germany should become a one state.. what am I missing here?

If you want 2 state, you need to recognize their sovereignty and stop settling on their land.
(Please refer to my debate with dckingfan for this issue of land - we need to establish what is their land right?)

If you want 1 state, you need to give them representation.
(Arabs in Israel are voting for elections and have equal rights, Arabs who decided to live in PLO areas are under PLO rule and have nothing to do with the Israeli life systems)

Because right now, the plan seems to be to bomb and otherwise choke out the civilians until they all flee, and you annex the rubble. Forcing Egypt to blink, and take in refugees, vacating the land for Israeli occupation. (Gaza is and was for almost 20 years an area with no Israelis in it at all. A totally self soverign entity that could have been a new singapore - and to answer you next comment - Gaza have a border with Egypt so there is no logic in saying Israel has seiged Gaza when the Egypt border is totally open.)


You can't just say "we only care about hamas, and while civilian casualties are a tragedy, it's a necessary cost to root out hamas" because the endgame is leading towards a destruction of all people in an effort to destroy hamas
(Reality does not corrleate with this statement.)
.

Please see my comments in bold, thanks

[2Fluffy4U]

At this point it is not worth debating facts on the sources of information. Israel acknowledges its actions, but justifies them. The above quotes are from the UN, not from Aljazeera. Israel did not deny that these actions occurred, they denied the intent behind them. That yes they were doing all of these things, but that you cannot prove their that intent is genocide. Even if the effect is.

That is the 'playing games with words' that you refer to.

Only by "words" we mean the deaths of 14,500 children.

Just wanted to let you know with regards to information people are basing opinions / desicsions:
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/05/13/un-cuts-estimates-women-children-deaths-gaza/73669560007/

""Now even the UN, or one part of the UN, silently acknowledges that it blindly accepted Hamas numbers meant to mislead," said Abrams, former deputy national security adviser for President George W. Bush."

I know to most it doesnt really make a difference, but I do want this to clarify and emphasize a critics view regarding information sources.. (but we also moved on to debate solutions so I apologize for perhaps beating a dead horse)..

We are basing this debate and having feelings and thoughts based on false information..

[dckingsfan]

Im going along with your suggestions.
Israel ceases fire immediately now and unconditionally (withdraws out of Palestine, completely). And promises to not attack in Gaza ever again.

What would be the next move for peace?

Well, that would be along way toward a solution (with my added suggestion).

The next step is to have an elected government of Palestine (that would have to exclude Hamas). Once that is complete, then you could have negotiations between the two governments.

I think we are progressing here

Can you detail the borders Israel should withdraw from in order for it to completly and undisputadly be out of Palestine?

Back to the border before the invasion, I would think (but probably negotiable). But this is largely irrelevant. If Israel materially pulls out and stops the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, the process can begin.

Until then, I am with the Biden administration to suspend all aid to Israel.

[2Fluffy4U]

Well, that would be along way toward a solution (with my added suggestion).

The next step is to have an elected government of Palestine (that would have to exclude Hamas). Once that is complete, then you could have negotiations between the two governments.

I think we are progressing here

Can you detail the borders Israel should withdraw from in order for it to completly and undisputadly be out of Palestine?

Back to the border before the invasion, I would think (but probably negotiable). But this is largely irrelevant. If Israel materially pulls out and stops the indiscriminate bombing of civilians, the process can begin.

Until then, I am with the Biden administration to suspend all aid to Israel.

Can you specify assuming the process begins - what is endgame desire for each side?