Political Roundtable Part XXXII

[dobrojim]

No. I just have a different opinion than you do. Diversity of thought is a strength of our system. Do you agree?

For the record, believing things that are not true is not an "opinion"

Ah, from the: your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts quote (who said that?).

And that is Popper's favorite tactic, IMO (it just doesn't work well with an educated audience).

Drop in a false fact to justify an opinion. Then when called on the factual error, deflect to "I just have a different opinion...". Followed by, "this is a good thing, right!".

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

[Zonkerbl]

For the record, believing things that are not true is not an "opinion"

Ah, from the: your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts quote (who said that?).

And that is Popper's favorite tactic, IMO (it just doesn't work well with an educated audience).

Drop in a false fact to justify an opinion. Then when called on the factual error, deflect to "I just have a different opinion...". Followed by, "this is a good thing, right!".

Daniel Patrick Moynihan

This is by far my least favorite, absolutely infuriatingly illogical and manipulative conservative tactic

I mean, I guess "I'm angry that trans people are allowed to exist" is technically a fact but it is one that a) you should be embarassed to admit publicly and b) is not in the slightest bit persuasive. I guess you can say "this is my opinion and I refuse to be swayed from it" well ok if you have absolutely no intention of changing your opinion why are you wasting my time inflicting your horrifyingly bad opinions on me

[doclinkin]

Anyway, I see where this is going. The Palestinians live in a bubble where they are ALWAYS the victim. When the Hamas murders women, children, and journalists, somehow it's Israel' fault. They killed, kidnapped and raped about 1500 people, probably more, but the Palestinians, despite gaining support across the world, still continue their victimization complex.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

War crimes do not justify war crimes. Period. There is no law allowing defensive genocide. Or preventative genocide.

Genocide is not the appropriate response to terrorism. In court one does not justify killing your neighbors' kids because some inane member of their household drove their car through your picnic. You punish the wrongdoer, not their family and neighbors. 'Palestinians' are not Hamas. Hamas deserves to be brought to justice. Justice is not served by the systematic murder and enforced famine of an entire people. The systematic destruction of the lives and homes of noncombatants to serve a military aim is genocide.

Netanyahu justifies it by citing Amalek.

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Using religion to wash war crimes is evil. Incites others to weaponize religion to justify their own atrocities. Tactically is a failure that spurs further terrorist acts and asymmetrical warfare.

These are not semantic 'games' this is a matter of law. Israel is a signee to the Geneva convention. As is the United States. By sending weaponry to Netanyahu it puts us as accessory to genocide. We have a responsibility to check our allies in their violation of international law, and state clearly that we cannot be a party to misuse of a nation's military that we largely fund. Check through the link above. How many of those statues are being violated? There is no "Yeah but..." when it comes to genocide.

[TGW]

According to zionists, ALL Palestinians are Hamas. They don't differentiate between the two, which is why they justify genocide and apartheid.

[dobrojim]

Anyway, I see where this is going. The Palestinians live in a bubble where they are ALWAYS the victim. When the Hamas murders women, children, and journalists, somehow it's Israel' fault. They killed, kidnapped and raped about 1500 people, probably more, but the Palestinians, despite gaining support across the world, still continue their victimization complex.

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

War crimes do not justify war crimes. Period.

Genocide is not the appropriate response to terrorism. In court one does not justify killing your neighbors' kids because some inane member of their household drove their car through your picnic. You punish the wrongdoer, not their family and neighbors. 'Palestinians' are not Hamas. Hamas deserves to be brought to justice. Justice is not served by the systematic murder and enforced famine of an entire people. The systematic destruction of the lives and homes of noncombatants to serve a military aim is genocide.

Netanyahu justifies it by citing Amalek.

"Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

Using religion to wash war crimes is evil. Incites others to weaponize religion to justify their own atrocities. Tactically is a failure that spurs further terrorist acts and asymmetrical warfare.

These are not semantic 'games' this is a matter of law. Israel is a signee to the Geneva convention. As is the United States. By sending weaponry to Netanyahu puts us as accessory to genocide. We have a responsibility to check our allies in their violation of international law and state clearly that we cannot be a party to misuse of a nation's military that we largely fund. Check through the link above. How many of those statues are being violated? There is no "Yeah but..." when it comes to genocide.

Earlier Fluffy called Chris Hayes "pro-Palestinian". I didn't get that from what he said in that monologue which
to me, sounded a lot more like what Doc has written here. I'm horrified when either side commits atrocities
and want the perpetrators of such to be held accountable. I'm horrified that Netanyahu can avoid accountability
by keeping the war going. He was a civilian criminal and has added war criminal to his resume. Hamas is horrible.
The right wing govt led by Bibi in Israel is horrible. They both use religion in an attempt to justify the unjustifiable.
They both want retribution which means this can never end.

Reminds me of this....with apologies for bringing a TV fantasy into a real world tragedy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_That_Be_Your_Last_Battlefield

Watch on YouTube

[Zonkerbl]

I don't understand this all or nothing, twitter based approach to Palestine/Israel relations. You're either an evil Jewish Zionist or antisemitic. It's not even about nuance. After WWII the UN stole a bunch of land from the Palestinians and gave it to Israel. That's why the Palestinians are angry and justifiably so. Then to add salt to the wound Israel went around telling all their friends "and you were right to give us this land because here are the precise borders of the state of Israel as described in the Old Testament, thank you very much" and then proceeded to steal land from outside those borders. So, ok, Israel inherited a bad situation that the UN created, but then they made it worse by continuing to allow hard core conservative religious fanatics to continue to settle in Palestinian territories, outside of the borders described in the Torah, illegally stealing land. And there are many, many other things the Israeli secular government has done to innocent Palestinian civilians, particularly recently, that are just atrocious.

For their part, the Palestinians authorities (not the people) have asked for and received support from their neighbors to terrorize innocent Israeli civilians, bombing Israel more or less constantly for the last several decades.

The Israeli government is a (genocidally? is that a wrod?) bad actor here, and the criminals running things in Palestine are bad actors. Their bad actions are hurting innocent civilians in Israel and in Palestine. And when we unconditionally support Israel and yell and scream that anyone who opposes Israel is antisemitic, we're not making the situation any better and arguably we're making it worse.

I find using the word "Zionist" as an epithet to be fundamentally antisemitic, since you are grouping together people who are in favor of a two state solution in with people who are committing genocide. That is hatred of a group that has nothing to do with their actions or intentions. I'm against Israel's current genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians. I think the Palestinians deserve to have a state and to have as much of the land stolen from them as possible returned to them. I also think Israel should exist. They should stop committing genocide, but I don't think the mere existence of Israel necessarily implies they will commit genocide against the Palestinians. I will concede that the existence of Israel implies stealing some land from Palestine, and that's a problem.

I think the first step towards peace between Israel and Palestine is to get rid of Netanyahu. A ceasefire isn't going to accomplish anything if he's still in charge. After that, maybe we can work something out.

[2Fluffy4U]

Yeah.. Genocide..
War and Conflict - sure.
Genocide??? Cmon I expected better than this level of debate..

1. If Israel was to perfom genocide - there would not be anyone alive in Gaza..
2. The internationl court in Hag stated there is no Genocide.
3. Learn what Genocide is and realise you are a sheep being learned to cite a mantra.
4. There is also no apartheid in Israel - arabs in Israel are a part of the parliment, have political parties and have judges in supreme court. Citing once more false narratives you have been fed by people who just want to identify with hardship..

But than again - no one here answered the question - what is a viable solution to this conflict?

I will add another question - on you way home from work from your DC office - a siren is heard and you cant find any shelter - you just stop the car on the sideroad and hope a missle won't land near you.
As American in DC being attacked like that - what do you hope your goverment should do to resolve this unacceptable reality?

[TGW]

I find using the word "Zionist" as an epithet to be fundamentally antisemitic, since you are grouping together people who are in favor of a two state solution in with people who are committing genocide. That is hatred of a group that has nothing to do with their actions or intentions. I'm against Israel's current genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians. I think the Palestinians deserve to have a state and to have as much of the land stolen from them as possible returned to them. I also think Israel should exist. They should stop committing genocide, but I don't think the mere existence of Israel necessarily implies they will commit genocide against the Palestinians. I will concede that the existence of Israel implies stealing some land from Palestine, and that's a problem.

Your definition of zionist is different than mine. I think any reasonable person would be in favor of a two-state solution that makes sense. The true zionists are not in favor of a two-state solution...they are in favor of destruction, obliteration, and complete domination. Doc's reference to Amalek is appropriate. They want to wipe out the Palestians.

On a side note, I think most Jewish people are NOT zionists and are in favor of a two-state solution...however, my biggest problem with the Jewish/Israeli community is that although they are very reasonable in front of cameras and the media, they continue to elect Netanyahoo as their leader. This would be akin to electing the American Sniper guy as President because he killed a lot of Iraqis. I don't know how anyone can support the Israeli position when they continue to put a murderer in office.

[dobrojim]

But than again - no one here answered the question - what is a viable solution to this conflict?

No one has found a viable solution yet so no one can answer this.

We do have evidence of what a non-viable non-solution looks like.

[dobrojim]

I agree with Eddie Glaude that we need a coalition of decency. I've ordered
and expect to soon be reading his new book We Are the Leaders We Have Been Looking For.

Watch on YouTube

[Zonkerbl]

Zionist: "a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."

Literally anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist is a Zionist. Or is this one of those definitions like "woke" that means whatever you want it to mean

Genocide: "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Genocide is LITERALLY what Israel is doing to Gaza right now. It is a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE.

[2Fluffy4U]

I find using the word "Zionist" as an epithet to be fundamentally antisemitic, since you are grouping together people who are in favor of a two state solution in with people who are committing genocide. That is hatred of a group that has nothing to do with their actions or intentions. I'm against Israel's current genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians. I think the Palestinians deserve to have a state and to have as much of the land stolen from them as possible returned to them. I also think Israel should exist. They should stop committing genocide, but I don't think the mere existence of Israel necessarily implies they will commit genocide against the Palestinians. I will concede that the existence of Israel implies stealing some land from Palestine, and that's a problem.

Your definition of zionist is different than mine. I think any reasonable person would be in favor of a two-state solution that makes sense. The true zionists are not in favor of a two-state solution...they are in favor of destruction, obliteration, and complete domination. Doc's reference to Amalek is appropriate. They want to wipe out the Palestians.

On a side note, I think most Jewish people are NOT zionists and are in favor of a two-state solution...however, my biggest problem with the Jewish/Israeli community is that although they are very reasonable in front of cameras and the media, they continue to elect Netanyahoo as their leader. This would be akin to electing the American Sniper guy as President because he killed a lot of Iraqis. I don't know how anyone can support the Israeli position when they continue to put a murderer in office.

I am a Zionist in favor of a two state solution and I oppose Netanyahu. The people you refer to are the extremists - that each society have. (There are war mongering people in US/Palestininans/Israel - they are not the majority in each entity)

Your notion of 'put a murder in office' is just horrible. You choose to forget Hamas actions and its charter for the anihalation of Israel.

People forget that if Israel put down their weapons - Israel will no longer exist (7th october is a flood of terrosits into Israel with the intention to kill without distinction).
If the Palestinians stop their terror attacks and acknowledge Israel right to exist in 67 borders with mutual swaps - there will be peace.

We need the US to apromote the disarment of Hamas and promote long lasting cease fire (20-25 years).
During that time - schools on *both" sides - Israel and Palestine need to start teaching children of coexsitance and shared life instead of hatred and demonisations..
After maybe two generations - people might actually be willing to reach agreements..
Simple ha?

[Zonkerbl]

I find using the word "Zionist" as an epithet to be fundamentally antisemitic, since you are grouping together people who are in favor of a two state solution in with people who are committing genocide. That is hatred of a group that has nothing to do with their actions or intentions. I'm against Israel's current genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians. I think the Palestinians deserve to have a state and to have as much of the land stolen from them as possible returned to them. I also think Israel should exist. They should stop committing genocide, but I don't think the mere existence of Israel necessarily implies they will commit genocide against the Palestinians. I will concede that the existence of Israel implies stealing some land from Palestine, and that's a problem.

Your definition of zionist is different than mine. I think any reasonable person would be in favor of a two-state solution that makes sense. The true zionists are not in favor of a two-state solution...they are in favor of destruction, obliteration, and complete domination. Doc's reference to Amalek is appropriate. They want to wipe out the Palestians.

On a side note, I think most Jewish people are NOT zionists and are in favor of a two-state solution...however, my biggest problem with the Jewish/Israeli community is that although they are very reasonable in front of cameras and the media, they continue to elect Netanyahoo as their leader. This would be akin to electing the American Sniper guy as President because he killed a lot of Iraqis. I don't know how anyone can support the Israeli position when they continue to put a murderer in office.

The statement in bold is antisemitic. That is absolutely not what zionism means. Or to be precise, that is the definition of Zionism that antisemites use.

[TGW]

I find using the word "Zionist" as an epithet to be fundamentally antisemitic, since you are grouping together people who are in favor of a two state solution in with people who are committing genocide. That is hatred of a group that has nothing to do with their actions or intentions. I'm against Israel's current genocide that they are committing against the Palestinians. I think the Palestinians deserve to have a state and to have as much of the land stolen from them as possible returned to them. I also think Israel should exist. They should stop committing genocide, but I don't think the mere existence of Israel necessarily implies they will commit genocide against the Palestinians. I will concede that the existence of Israel implies stealing some land from Palestine, and that's a problem.

Your definition of zionist is different than mine. I think any reasonable person would be in favor of a two-state solution that makes sense. The true zionists are not in favor of a two-state solution...they are in favor of destruction, obliteration, and complete domination. Doc's reference to Amalek is appropriate. They want to wipe out the Palestians.

On a side note, I think most Jewish people are NOT zionists and are in favor of a two-state solution...however, my biggest problem with the Jewish/Israeli community is that although they are very reasonable in front of cameras and the media, they continue to elect Netanyahoo as their leader. This would be akin to electing the American Sniper guy as President because he killed a lot of Iraqis. I don't know how anyone can support the Israeli position when they continue to put a murderer in office.

The statement in bold is antisemitic. That is absolutely not what zionism means. Or to be precise, that is the definition of Zionism that antisemites use.

Well that's your opinion. I'm not going to change my definition of zionism to fit your feelings on what is or isn't antisemitic.

[2Fluffy4U]

Your definition of zionist is different than mine. I think any reasonable person would be in favor of a two-state solution that makes sense. The true zionists are not in favor of a two-state solution...they are in favor of destruction, obliteration, and complete domination. Doc's reference to Amalek is appropriate. They want to wipe out the Palestians.

On a side note, I think most Jewish people are NOT zionists and are in favor of a two-state solution...however, my biggest problem with the Jewish/Israeli community is that although they are very reasonable in front of cameras and the media, they continue to elect Netanyahoo as their leader. This would be akin to electing the American Sniper guy as President because he killed a lot of Iraqis. I don't know how anyone can support the Israeli position when they continue to put a murderer in office.

The statement in bold is antisemitic. That is absolutely not what zionism means. Or to be precise, that is the definition of Zionism that antisemites use.

Well that's your opinion. I'm not going to change my definition of zionism to fit your feelings on what is or isn't antisemitic.

High level debate right there. Very logical and factual. Good job.

[Zonkerbl]

JHC. I literally cited the dictionary definition. TGW, don't be stupid. Admit you are wrong and apologize for being antisemitic.

[TGW]

JHC. I literally cited the dictionary definition. TGW, don't be stupid. Admit you are wrong and apologize for being antisemitic.

You have got to be kidding. I already told you my opinion on what zionists are, and no I'm not changing my opnion for you. Put the pipe down sir.

Btw what a cheap tactic by you. "If you don't agree with me, your antisemetic." FOH.

edit: and just to add, why don't you look up the "definiton" of what a semite is in Brittanica, and see if the definiion fits in with your view of what a semite is. Then you can see how lazy and ridiculous you sound.

[2Fluffy4U]

JHC. I literally cited the dictionary definition. TGW, don't be stupid. Admit you are wrong and apologize for being antisemitic.

You have got to be kidding. I already told you my opinion on what zionists are, and no I'm not changing my opnion for you. Put the pipe down sir.

Btw what a cheap tactic by you. "If you don't agree with me, your antisemetic." FOH.

He didn't say that at all - you changing his anwer is the cheap tactic.

Zionism is a movement created to promote a homeland for the Jewish people.
The fact you go a long way to attach a very negative and biased 'opinion' is your problem.

Your claim is like me saying - 'I think Nazism is great and im not changing my opinion for you'

Which only means I am either a Nazi or just dont really know what Nazism is..

I hope the latter is what applies in your case..

[2Fluffy4U]

Zionist: "a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel."

Literally anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist is a Zionist. Or is this one of those definitions like "woke" that means whatever you want it to mean

Genocide: "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Genocide is LITERALLY what Israel is doing to Gaza right now. It is a TEXTBOOK EXAMPLE.

I must clarify: there is no deliberate killing aimed at destroying a nation. If that was the case - would the IDF make phone calls/ drop leaflets and tell civilians to evacuate from specific areas for specific times?. Did Russia warn the ukraines before attacking in Kyev? Did Ukraine warn the Russians before attacking? Israel is the only country in the world with max efforts to avoid civilians casualties. This is warfare - not COD.
You guys are not exposed to what actually going on and your source of information is mostly woke / qatar / emirates funded media..
I want all the best for Gazans population - but I just can't afford having rockets fired and israeli civilians being held hostages. Hamas is more than welcome to surrender, bring back all hostages and cease its agression towards israel and promte coexistence. Believe you me the war will then immediatly end.
But no - that is not Literally Genocide. Not even close..

[Runner300]

I'm a Zionist, among vast majority of jews that live in Israel.
You can't differentiate between "Israeli jews" and "Zionists". They are the same.
"Zionist" is not a derogatory word. It simply means aspiration to build a home in Israel.
Not at the expense of anyone.
Not by killing or evicting anyone.
ALONG and together with anyone that is not trying to kill me.
Shimon Peres was a zionist.
So was Itzhak Rabin.