Official Trade Thread VIII: 4/21/09 - 6/25/09

[AgentOvechkin08]

Battier is done, why would you trade for him because of his above average defense. I mean he did get torched by Kobe (who doesnt), and just seems to be losing a step.

Butler is younger and in his prime.

[Dat2U]

Battier is done, why would you trade for him because of his above average defense. I mean he did get torched by Kobe (who doesnt), and just seems to be losing a step.

Butler is younger and in his prime.

I'm not all that thrilled about a Butler/Battier trade either but um, Battier is 30, Caron is 29. Battier was drafted in '01, Butler in '02. I don't think one year makes a huge difference in terms of age.

I will say Battier is overrated IMO. He's a smart heady player, but he's not a defensive stopper. He's a great team defender, a solid man defender and an absolutely lousy offensive player.

[Ji]

if we get the #2 or #3 pick, EG instead of trading back or trying to get a VET should do whatever it takes to move to #1. Griffin is a 10-12 year all star and a perfect fit. You have to try to get him

[WizarDynasty]

Battier is done, why would you trade for him because of his above average defense. I mean he did get torched by Kobe (who doesnt), and just seems to be losing a step.

Butler is younger and in his prime.

I'm not all that thrilled about a Butler/Battier trade either but um, Battier is 30, Caron is 29. Battier was drafted in '01, Butler in '02. I don't think one year makes a huge difference in terms of age.

I will say Battier is overrated IMO. He's a smart heady player, but he's not a defensive stopper. He's a great team defender, a solid man defender and an absolutely lousy offensive player.

Code: Select all

Yr   Player     G  MP   PER  TS%   eFG% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg 
01-02 S Battier 78 3097 13.9 0.518 0.482 7.5 11.9 2.1 1.8 12.5 18.2 104 107
03-04 S Battier 79 1947 15.3 0.544 0.506 8.8 8.40 2.7 2.2 8.3  15.5 114 102
06-07 S Battier 82 2988 12.0 0.589 0.567 6.5 9.20 1.4 1.5 9.3  12.1 119 102
08-09 S Battier 60 2031 10.6 0.568 0.538 8.2 10.0 1.3 1.9 11.3 9.9 118 105
02-03 C Butler 78 2858 15.1 0.502 0.432 8.0  14.1 2.6 0.9 13.8 22.9 99 102
04-05 C Butler 77 2746 15.8 0.528 0.464 9.2  9.30 2.1 0.6 9.9  20.7 110 111
05-06 C Butler 75 2708 17.0 0.535 0.474 10.  12.1 2.4 0.5 12.4 23.2 107 106
07-08 C Butler 58 2314 20.7 0.558 0.501 9.8  21.9 3.0 0.7 12.4 24   113 107
08-09 C Butler 67 2585 18.8 0.552 0.482 9.4  19.7 2.2 0.6 14.3 25.9 108 113




http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eca01.html
The data suggest that Battier has always been a better shooter than Caron. Caron gets the the free throw line more than Battier which is why Caron's true shooting percentage is higher. Battier commits far less turnovers and has always been one of the top three defensive small forwards in the leagues for years and has very strong defensive reputation that we will need in playoffs. He also isn't undersized on defense guarding east coast playoff small forwards and has been one of the best three point shooters at the small forward position for years while caron is a horrible three point shooter. The wiz will gladly trade for Battier has it helps both teams out.

[AgentOvechkin08]

I thought Battier was a little older than that LOL

Butler is a better offensive player IMO and when he is motivated can be a great defensive player forcing TOs and what not. Yeah those numbers WizDynasty put up are nice and Butler commits TOs a little too much for my liking but I would rather have him over Battier most of the time.

[AgentOvechkin08]

if we get the #2 or #3 pick, EG instead of trading back or trying to get a VET should do whatever it takes to move to #1. Griffin is a 10-12 year all star and a perfect fit. You have to try to get him

I was thinking the same thing. I would package a young player with upside (Blatche) + our 09 2nd + future pick.

[LyricalRico]

if we get the #2 or #3 pick, EG instead of trading back or trying to get a VET should do whatever it takes to move to #1. Griffin is a 10-12 year all star and a perfect fit. You have to try to get him

I was thinking the same thing. I would package a young player with upside (Blatche) + our 09 2nd + future pick.

We've already discussed trading up from 2 to 1 if the team at the top prefers Rubio. But if we're sitting at 3, who's going to trade the #1 to us? Maybe Minnesota if we send them #3+Blatche+Young and take Cardinal off their hands. But other than that, I don't see any team trading down from 1 to 3.

[DaRealHibachi]

Hmmm.... I rather keep Butler, and trade Jamson for Battier... Like I said a good while ago, and it's repeated in this thread, Butler can be an good defender... Plus if we give up Butler, we give up a very good offensive player and passer in the middle for a mediocre one...

Also, I tend to believe that the stats are close b/c defenses load up on Butler... Battier seems allot more open on offense than Butler ever is...

[LyricalRico]

Hmmm.... I rather keep Butler, and trade Jamson for Battier... Like I said a good while ago, and it's repeated in this thread, Butler can be an good defender... Plus if we give up Butler, we give up a very good offensive player and passer in the middle for a mediocre one...

Also, I tend to believe that the stats are close b/c defenses load up on Butler... Battier seems allot more open on offense than Butler ever is...

The problem with that is that you have to play Battier at SG (because we've already proven we can't play Butler there), which diminishes him a bit IMO because he's not a good enough ball handler. If we can't start him at SF, I don't think there's much reason to trade for Battier.

[WizarDynasty]

Duplicate

[WizarDynasty]

Arenas butler haywood jamison was already defeated when they were fully healthy by lebron james. Expecting us to defeat cleveland when they have only gotten better....and the wizards have not upgraded defensively in their front court...is unintelligent to say the least. The wizard need to upgrade at their front court position defensively. We have plenty of offense on the bench to replace butlers low efg...and with jamison likely to be our best pf..we really need an upgrade in our starting front court...butler is a front court player people...front court players protect the rim and post up and are the most versatile defenders on your team. Butler excels in none of these dimensions and is a major reason why the wizards front court fouls so much. Big sf post butler up...butler should have the versatility to guard powerforwards but he can't cuz he is 6"5 w/o shoes. magic...our division rival put reshard lewis in the post and we have no one who can gaurd him?? Think people. Battier is the long unaswered prayer that this team need in its front court if we don't get blake.
Championship teams need a versatile defender capable of matching up with big front court player and quick backcourt players. Sf is suppose to be the most dynamic flexible defender on the team. Grunfeld and his offensive tunnel vision.. Thinks having allen iverson play the two guard because he can score is a wonderful idea yet you have to make everyone even better defensively to work. We got three allen iverson on this team with arenas butler and jamison. Sorry people haywood is slightly above average defensively in the front court to cover up all the mismatches grunfeld offensive players create on defense. The most important defensive position is the small forward position.
So again sg primary job is to score pg distribute center post defense and defensive rebounding. Power forward score inside but can guard the perimeter out to foul line but mainly boosts your fg with close shots. Small forward is the most dynamic because he can guard the post guard the perimeter score on perimeter and score inside. Caron butler is undersized and can't even advance the ball up the court against pressure people. He can't defend the post against big smallforwards and can't switch off against powerforwards. Warning sign that he can't advance the ball agaist pressure offensively and u combine that with all the things players he can't guard in the post due to his size. Its clear as day. Sure he can get to the basket a few times and he can't hit a jumper but he shoots low fg..poor 3pt shooter and extremely..extremely poor ball handler in the open court and is a charge machine that can't catch alley hoops. Do I need to say more why battier is better for this team if we don't get blake.

[nate33]

Arenas butler haywood jamison was already defeated when they were fully healthy by lebron james. Expecting us to defeat cleveland when they have only gotten better....and the wizards have not upgraded defensively in their front court...is unintelligent to say the least.

They beat us 4-2 thanks to two game-winning late-game calls in their favor. It was basically a tie. Cleveland has improved with Mo Williams and David West, but Z has regressed and Hughes is gone so I don't think they're all that much better. We are better because Haywood (assuming he plays like he did in 07/08) is better than the Haywood of 06/07; and Caron of 07/08 is significantly better than Caron of 06/07. We also have a bunch of young guys that should be due to "turn the corner" this year.

We have won 11 of our last 17 games against Cleveland with Arenas healthy. We can beat them.

[Dat2U]

Arenas butler haywood jamison was already defeated when they were fully healthy by lebron james. Expecting us to defeat cleveland when they have only gotten better....and the wizards have not upgraded defensively in their front court...is unintelligent to say the least.

They beat us 4-2 thanks to two game-winning late-game calls in their favor. It was basically a tie. Cleveland has improved with Mo Williams and David West, but Z has regressed and Hughes is gone so I don't think they're all that much better. We are better because Haywood (assuming he plays like he did in 07/08) is better than the Haywood of 06/07; and Caron of 07/08 is significantly better than Caron of 06/07. We also have a bunch of young guys that should be due to "turn the corner" this year.

We have won 11 of our last 17 games against Cleveland with Arenas healthy. We can beat them.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Cleveland is alot better, mainly because LeBron is alot better and he's still improving. It's honestly complete homerism to acknowledge the improvements of Haywood & Caron and ignore how much LeBron has grown. LeBron is a monster now on BOTH SIDES of the court. He's a better shooter and a defensive force. I hate him, I think he's a crybaby and a total jerk but he's a transcendent talent and could potentially be the greatest player of all time.

Cleveland's team is built perfectly for LeBron now. Hughes was a horrible fit b/c he's totally ineffective without the ball and he's not a catch & shoot type of player. Now LeBron is surrounded by spot up shooters. Mo Williams, West, Gibson, Pavlovic, Wally Z all can spot up and nail open shots with a high level of consistency. Joe Smith & Big Z can also nail the open 15-20 footer at a good rate. That makes Cleveland that much harder to beat b/c if you load up on LeBron he'll always make the correct pass to the open man. And now, as opposed to 2 or 3 years ago, those guys make the open shot.

I also don't buy the idea that being able to beat Cleveland in the regular season means anything. The playoffs are a totally different animal. Until we beat Cleveland in the playoffs the Wizards are simply the Cavaliers bitch. I hate to say it but its true. Regardless of the excuses we use (and yes they are excuses) the Wizards are 4-12 in the playoffs versus LeBron. We like to throw caveats in there or infer "what if" scenarios but frankly those details would simply be getting in the way of the actual facts.

Cleveland is a 60 win team that's already been to the NBA finals & has a great chance of going again and winning it all this time. The Wizards haven't won a 2nd round game since Ronald Reagan's 1st term in office. We've got a long long way to go to get to Cleveland's level.

[pancakes3]

WizD and Dat have valid points in that getting back our core healthy is not going to vault us into the elite. We're a 2nd rounder at best - the same as Chicago, Atlanta, and a KG-less Celtics. To think that our squad is a finals-caliber team, or can take a 7-game series from the Cavs next year is imo, homerism.

HOWEVER

Trading Butler for Battier is a step backwards. Battier is offensively challenged and not so awesome of a defender to make up for it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/ ... =battish01

To trade a 20ppg scorer for a 9.5 ppg scorer is "... unintelligent to say the least". Trading Butler away so we can make room for earl clark is "... unintelligent to say the least". To think that small forwards should be able to guard power forwards is "... unintelligent to say the least." Paul Pierce, Danny Granger, Josh Howard, Stephen Jackson, etc. would have no chance guarding someone like Millsap or even our own AJ much less KG/TD/Dirk.

[nate33]

I also don't buy the idea that being able to beat Cleveland in the regular season means anything. The playoffs are a totally different animal. Until we beat Cleveland in the playoffs the Wizards are simply the Cavaliers bitch. I hate to say it but its true. Regardless of the excuses we use (and yes they are excuses) the Wizards are 4-12 in the playoffs versus LeBron. We like to throw caveats in there or infer "what if" scenarios but frankly those details would simply be getting in the way of the actual facts.

I'm sorry. Missing your best player isn't an "excuse". It's an insurmountable obstacle. There is no way you can expect anything other than an 0-4 sweep when Arenas and Butler are both out and Haywood is benched (06/07). And to win two games against them without a healthy Arenas (07/08) is a pretty good sign that we can compete with them.

Yes, I readily admit that Lebron has improved, but I maintain that we can beat Cleveland. I don't think we're as good of a team overall as Cleveland, but for some reason, the matchups are set up so we can defeat them head-to-head.

[DaRealHibachi]

Agreed...

Never has CLE convinced me they can beat us when healthy... The only time they beat us healthy was when they won a couple years ago, in OT, by 1 point...

They couldn't even beat us at home this year, and we were wrecked...

Nah, CLE has to do something more convincing than beatin up on an injured squad...

[sfam]

Lets be honest for a second - a large part of what determines who is the "monster" in the playoffs is all about health. Had Kevin Garnett and Leon Poe been playing in the post season, nobody would be talking about Cleveland going to the finals. Yes, the Wizards have been seemingly perennially injured, but that may not be the case next year. What if in next year's playoffs Labron is playing without Mo Williams against a fully healthy Wizards team - will Cleveland fans blame the injury if they lose in 6 or 7?

I think its probably a fair point to say that Cleveland has proven that with this team they are in the elite 4-5 teams in the league. Until we do the same, we have to assume Cleveland has the better team, assuming everyone is healthy. But we also have to assume the top 5 pick will yield either a real solid star at the #1 or #2 pick, or a veteran SG if we get #s 3-5. This will be more of an upgrade than Cleveland probably will have this offseason.

[LyricalRico]

So, it's back to trade options. The #5 and contracts for...

[Shanghai Kid]

So the Wizards will be without question trading the pick it seems.

[Halcyon]

Quick, I need some good trade scenarios before I start getting even more depressed....