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The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking!

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1521 » by doclinkin » Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:09 am

payitforward wrote:If we get the top pick, I can't imagine Will looking past Sarr. After that... who knows?

Take another look at Reed Sheppard's numbers. They are simply amazing.

Overall, Reed Sheppard's Freshman numbers per 40 minutes are significantly better than James Harden's. They are significantly better than Steph Curry's. They are better than any guard I can find.

& I don't just mean shooting, though yes he did post a .702 TS% as a college Freshman! But he also got almost 6 boards, just over 6 assists, & almost 3.5 steals.

Now... show me another Freshman guard who shot anywhere near the level of Reed Sheppard. I don't mean this year. I mean ever.


I think there is a solid chance Dat's boy Jared McCain ends up a comparable player to Reed Sheppard at the next level. Maybe better.

I think McCain will ultimately prove better on defense. He's going to measure long for his height and while strong already, looks to have a frame that can build even more strength and quickness. Reed anticipates as well as anyone in the game, jumping passing lanes for steals and harassing his man from end to end. When blown past he still was able to chase after a player to swat at a shot from behind.

Players in the NBA are quicker though and once they get by you you're more likely to pick up a foul running after them, unless you have the length to make up the difference. Reed is going to measure short in reach and wingspan, whatever his height. As for footspeed I do expect Sheppard will grade out well in lane agility drills, but in games I get the sense McCain will prove better able to stand up his man and keep in front of them, fight over picks to challenge a shot. Surprising strength for his position, he was a hellacious rebounder this year. Similar averages to the steady Sheppard, but more games with high total boards.

As for shooting, McCain's shot is pure (TS .611) and he got it off at a high rate despite pressure and the scouting report. McCain was the 2nd option for Duke behind PF/C Filipowski, ahead of senior G Jeremy Roach. Whereas Sheppard was better able to pick his spots on a team that was loaded with guard talent. Shep was 4th on his team in FG attempts per game. Evaluation of Reed's game depends on if you think his awe inspiring 3FG efficiency was a product of the system and shot selection and if you think it is sustainable at the next level. I think at the college level he often had juuuust enough room to get his shot off. I think he will have to recalibrate against the longer quicker defenders at the next level. Though I do think he will adjust. McCain showed an ability to hit his shot against pressure and the scouting report, playing well coming off screens on the catch and shoot or making his own shot with the ball in his hands.

Where Sheppard has the clear edge in stats is his potential as a lead guard, putting up solid assist numbers including one double-double, and one 8pt/11ast game. Still McCain throws a pretty pass as well, nice ast/TO ratio, and had the edge in rebounding with six double digit rebounding games, 4 of which were double doubles.

When the lights were brightest on the tournament stage though McCain came up huge while Sheppard struggled. Reed managed only 3 points in his teams flame out in the round of 64. By contrast McCain hit for 15 pts vs Vermont, then 30pts against James Madison his 2nd highest point total of the year at that time, going 8-11 on three pters. He managed only 7 against the fiercest backcourt defense in the NCAA in Houston, but topped his earlier output with 32pts against NC State when he had to carry the team with Filipowski fouled out. Only hit 5 for 11 from 3, and 8 for 20 overall, but 11-11 from the FT line trying to win it all by himself.

I like Sheppard's efficiency and BBIQ. But I'm not sure I'd gamble that he could keep up that anomalous and historically unprecedented efficiency if he were given the ball at higher usage. Personally if I had that #1 pick I'd be tempted to trade back for Toronto's 6 & 17, where I would hope to get Castle (6) and Ware (17), or Clingan (6) and McCain (17) as a consolation prize. And hope Edey slips to our 26. That said I bet Toronto would rather keep their picks to take Castle then take Edey early at 17.



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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1522 » by closg00 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 1:57 pm

NatP4 wrote:
payitforward wrote:If we get the top pick, I can't imagine Will looking past Sarr. After that... who knows?

Take another look at Reed Sheppard's numbers. They are simply amazing.

Overall, Reed Sheppard's Freshman numbers per 40 minutes are significantly better than James Harden's. They are significantly better than Steph Curry's. They are better than any guard I can find.

& I don't just mean shooting, though yes he did post a .702 TS% as a college Freshman! But he also got almost 6 boards, just over 6 assists, & almost 3.5 steals.

Now... show me another Freshman guard who shot anywhere near the level of Reed Sheppard. I don't mean this year. I mean ever.


Has become the most underrated prospect in the draft.

Topic is more than a year younger, playing significantly better competition, and posting 19&7 on 60% TS. That’s even more impressive production in my view, but those are the only two “Tier 1” players in this draft. Would be THRILLED to land Sheppard. Clingan is close behind at the top of the 2nd tier.

Think Topic will make it a conversation for the top pick, and Dawkins is ELITE in the draft. Will get the right guy.


How can a player who is going to be a Top-10 (or possibly Top-5) be considered underrated? I don't have him as high as you do, but he is already at the top of the boards.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1523 » by payitforward » Tue Apr 23, 2024 2:26 pm

doc -- I didn't mean to suggest we should take Sheppard if we wind up w/ one of the top e.g. 3 picks. I was just blown away by the numbers he put up.

Of course I love your idea of trading down a few spots from a top 3 pick in order to pick up another mid-R1 pick. I wouldn't be myself if I weren't all over that! :) ! & I think e.g. Castle & Ware plus whoever seems bpa at 26 would be a phenomenal get for a rebuilding team like ours.

Imagine, say, Castle, Kolek, & Ware. Then add KJ Simpson at 51 & Jonathon Mogbo undrafted, & I'm very happy! :)
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1524 » by NatP4 » Tue Apr 23, 2024 3:30 pm

closg00 wrote:
NatP4 wrote:
payitforward wrote:If we get the top pick, I can't imagine Will looking past Sarr. After that... who knows?

Take another look at Reed Sheppard's numbers. They are simply amazing.

Overall, Reed Sheppard's Freshman numbers per 40 minutes are significantly better than James Harden's. They are significantly better than Steph Curry's. They are better than any guard I can find.

& I don't just mean shooting, though yes he did post a .702 TS% as a college Freshman! But he also got almost 6 boards, just over 6 assists, & almost 3.5 steals.

Now... show me another Freshman guard who shot anywhere near the level of Reed Sheppard. I don't mean this year. I mean ever.


Has become the most underrated prospect in the draft.

Topic is more than a year younger, playing significantly better competition, and posting 19&7 on 60% TS. That’s even more impressive production in my view, but those are the only two “Tier 1” players in this draft. Would be THRILLED to land Sheppard. Clingan is close behind at the top of the 2nd tier.

Think Topic will make it a conversation for the top pick, and Dawkins is ELITE in the draft. Will get the right guy.


How can a player who is going to be a Top-10 (or possibly Top-5) be considered underrated? I don't have him as high as you do, but he is already at the top of the boards.


Arguably the best player in the draft, projected in the 5-10 range. There’s been top 3 conversations about Sarr, Holland, Buzelis, Risacher, Clingan, Williams, Topic, and Castle, none about Sheppard at any point.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1525 » by doclinkin » Tue Apr 23, 2024 5:21 pm

payitforward wrote:doc -- I didn't mean to suggest we should take Sheppard if we wind up w/ one of the top e.g. 3 picks. I was just blown away by the numbers he put up.


Right. Do we believe the numbers? Seems to me most Kentucky guards have their numbers suppressed by a system that requires them to trade off and share. But I think Reed's efficiency might be somewhat artificially inflated by the fact that he could pick his spots to star. He did play well when asked to carry a heavier load late season, but was totally snuffed in the NCAA tourney. One game does not negate his good year. I just have a feeling that as a 1st-option guy he would have had a rougher year than as the 4th man on the floor.

Also. The more I look, the more I like Jared McCain. A string of double digit rebounding games, for a guard, tends to indicate a player whose defense and athleticism translates to the next level. Reed kept a steady 4-5 boards per 36, but none of those standout double digit totals. I have a sneaky feeling McCain's game might carry over better to the NBA, where Sheppard as a first option guy may be overmatched athletically. Not mentally, he will adjust there. But no way he keeps that insane efficiency.

Reminds me of when Joey Porter was an efficiency god in Coach Cal's Memphis system, and I kept saying it was a relic of that Dribble Drive Motion system and artificially inflated. Cal's numbers do weird things at the next level. Who knows. He does collect top talent no doubt.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1526 » by tontoz » Tue Apr 23, 2024 8:49 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Right. Do we believe the numbers?




I watched several Kentucky games. Reed's numbers are absolutely legit. He wasn't just taking wide open catch and shoot 3s. He was shooting them off the dribble moving in both directions. He was shooting catch and shoot movement 3s going both directions. He was taking midrange shots off the dribble. He made them all look easy.

The only time he remotely struggled making shots was trying to finish at the rim in traffic.

His biggest offensive bursts were in the 2nd half of games when they were down at the half. He just decided to take over and went off.

Size and defense concerns are legit. I would guess he is 6'1 w/o shoes.

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1527 » by J-Ves » Tue Apr 23, 2024 9:55 pm

Love Reed Sheppard, just not for us. We need to draft upside and taking shrimp guards who don’t necessarily have a first option scorers mentality is a scary proposition. There’s no doubt in mind he has the highest floor in this draft but I don’t 100% believe he’s a starter in this league
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1528 » by tontoz » Tue Apr 23, 2024 11:57 pm

J-Ves wrote:Love Reed Sheppard, just not for us. We need to draft upside and taking shrimp guards who don’t necessarily have a first option scorers mentality is a scary proposition. There’s no doubt in mind he has the highest floor in this draft but I don’t 100% believe he’s a starter in this league



I bet the Spurs take him if he is available.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1529 » by DCZards » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:06 am

tontoz wrote:
J-Ves wrote:Love Reed Sheppard, just not for us. We need to draft upside and taking shrimp guards who don’t necessarily have a first option scorers mentality is a scary proposition. There’s no doubt in mind he has the highest floor in this draft but I don’t 100% believe he’s a starter in this league



I bet the Spurs take him if he is available.

What does that have to do with who the Zards draft?
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1530 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:41 am

tontoz wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Right. Do we believe the numbers?


I watched several Kentucky games. Reed's numbers are absolutely legit. He wasn't just taking wide open catch and shoot 3s. He was shooting them off the dribble moving in both directions. He was shooting catch and shoot movement 3s going both directions. He was taking midrange shots off the dribble. He made them all look easy.

The only time he remotely struggled making shots was trying to finish at the rim in traffic.

His biggest offensive bursts were in the 2nd half of games when they were down at the half. He just decided to take over and went off.

Size and defense concerns are legit. I would guess he is 6'1 w/o shoes.


If you believe his efficiency will translate as a starter in the NBA, then absolutely he is worth a top 3 pick.

I like him, when he got a chance to play as lead ballhandler he was able to manipulate defenses to get open shots. Not from quickness but from taking advantage of his window of opportunity, and setting up the open shot in the first place. Basically never go under on a pick against him. Too crafty and ready for the moment. I just wonder on upside if he has maxed out what he can do physically. And if as a lead guard he will be vulnerable to pressure. But, nobody is outthinking him out there.

He actually reminds me of a better defending Tyus Jones. Which is a very good player to have on your team. I'm not crying if the front office thinks he has another level. But I do see where he will be physically outquicked, and players will shoot over the top of him. McCain's game I am confident will translate. Sheppard, I wonder. We have seen efficiency demigods disappear when given a larger role, a starting role. But as PIF suggests, we have never seen numbers like his.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1531 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 24, 2024 12:53 am

tontoz wrote:
J-Ves wrote:Love Reed Sheppard, just not for us. We need to draft upside and taking shrimp guards who don’t necessarily have a first option scorers mentality is a scary proposition. There’s no doubt in mind he has the highest floor in this draft but I don’t 100% believe he’s a starter in this league



I bet the Spurs take him if he is available.


The Spurs have the luxury of having the most dominant defender in the game. At the beginning of his career. They can play anybody out there next to Wemby and suddenly that player will have awesome defensive +/- numbers. Yes landing a player who is fundamentally sound, can hit efficiently from outside and most importantly: can pass to Wemby. That would be a valuable player.

Hell, while either Topić and Reed would seem to be a lock to be selected by SA, and Castle is a dream for a hard@ss like Pop, I have a different vision. Of all the teams in the league the Spurs could best afford to select Rob Dillingham to play next to Wemby.

Imagine if Tony Parker entered the league with a reliable outside shot. Or if Trae Young had Tim Duncan to feed on the inside. Put Kyrie Irving next to Kareem. When has there been a dominant big with an unstoppable ballhandler? Especially one that shoots well from outside. Stef Curry would be extra deadly if Unibrow were on his team.

Man. Imagine being a Spurs fan. Sigh. They got good karma so they earned their luck. But still. Must be nice.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1532 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:48 am

At this point , I'm really not liking the top of this draft. The only 2 players in the top 5 range that are of any interest to me are Stephon Castle and Cody Williams. If we can trade back, I'd seriously consider that. The Pelicans with 18 & 21 would be a team I'd be looking at to make a move.

That would give us 3 picks in the 18-26 range...

Kyshawn George
Carlton Carrington
Tidjane Salaun
Yves Missi
Kel’el Ware
DaRon Holmes II
Adem Bona
Pacome Dadiet
Hunter Sallis
Jamir Watkins
Melvin Ajinca
Ryan Dunn

Give me 3 out of this group and I could be very happy!


And we still have our 2nd rounder....

Adama Bal
PJ Hall
Ajay Mitchell
Payton Sandfort
Baylor Scheierman
Jalen Bridges
Oso Ighodaro
Bobi Klintman
Dillon Jones

These are guys I like for various reasons that could be there at 51.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1533 » by nate33 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:03 pm

doclinkin wrote:I think there is a solid chance Dat's boy Jared McCain ends up a comparable player to Reed Sheppard at the next level. Maybe better.

It's interesting that Tankathon projects McCain to be the better 3-point shooter. Presumably it's because they weigh FT% much heavier than 3P% when projecting forward. McCain hits an impressive 88.5% of his FT's whereas Sheppard is a much more ordinary 83.1%.

Guys that approach 90% on FT% are a breed apart. They have such hyper neuro-muscular coordination that their shooting form is repeatable almost like a robot. If you sort the league's players by FT%, you will get a who's who list of almost exclusively exceptional shooters who either shoot above 40% from 3, or just below 40% on very high volume.

Image

I like McCain and am a little leery of Sheppard maintaining his insane efficiency at the next level. On the other hand, McCain's stats don't really show much playmaking at all and Sheppard's do, albeit with a fairly high turnover rate. If one is worried about Sheppard panning out as merely an undersized shooting guard rather than a true PG, doesn't that same concern also apply to McCain?

Much of this boils down to projection. I think smart young guys like Sheppard and McCain can learn to become true PG's even if they're not quite true PG's already. The question is, which guy has the skillset to learn the PG position better? I think McCain has a tighter handle than Sheppard, but Sheppard is really good hitting 3's off the bounce. Offensively, they're pretty similar.

Defensively, Sheppard has much better numbers, but one wonders if those steals and blocks will translate. Sheppard has a tendency to gamble and roam which boosts his steals numbers but occasionally leaves him out of position to defend his man. But that's not to say that all of his steals are due to reckless gambling. He has great hands and instincts and often gets the steal from the man he is guarding one-on-one, and he blocks a ton of shots that way as well.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1534 » by NatP4 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 1:14 pm

Tankathon projects Topic as a 36.6% 3pt shooter, just a touch below Sheppard and McCain.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jared-mccain--reed-sheppard--nikola-topic

Topic FT%:
2020/2021: 78.6%
2021/2022: 86.7%
2022/2023: 88.9%
2023/2024: 87.8%
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1535 » by DCZards » Wed Apr 24, 2024 2:01 pm

I was impressed by McCain’s craftiness with the ball in his hands. He would certainly be a shoot-first PG but I could see him using his threat as a scorer to set up teammates…and evolving into a quality PG.

McCain made some sweet passes in the video I watched, most notably the two passes to Mitchell against Vermont and the pocket pass to Filipowski against James Madison.

Really gets his shot off quickly…which matters a lot in the NBA. He pretty much catches and shoots the ball in a single motion.

I liked that McCain excelled on college bball’s biggest stage—the NCAA tournament. Most mocks have him going mid to late first round. I think he’ll be drafted in the 12-18 range.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1536 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 24, 2024 3:20 pm

nate33 wrote:
I like McCain and am a little leery of Sheppard maintaining his insane efficiency at the next level. On the other hand, McCain's stats don't really show much playmaking at all and Sheppard's do, albeit with a fairly high turnover rate. If one is worried about Sheppard panning out as merely an undersized shooting guard rather than a true PG, doesn't that same concern also apply to McCain?

Much of this boils down to projection. I think smart young guys like Sheppard and McCain can learn to become true PG's even if they're not quite true PG's already. The question is, which guy has the skillset to learn the PG position better? I think McCain has a tighter handle than Sheppard, but Sheppard is really good hitting 3's off the bounce. Offensively, they're pretty similar.

Defensively, Sheppard has much better numbers, but one wonders if those steals and blocks will translate. Sheppard has a tendency to gamble and roam which boosts his steals numbers but occasionally leaves him out of position to defend his man. But that's not to say that all of his steals are due to reckless gambling. He has great hands and instincts and often gets the steal from the man he is guarding one-on-one, and he blocks a ton of shots that way as well.


Right. I think Sheppard will mature into an excellent floor general type PG. I see it as the primary area of probable growth in his game. Both in setting up teammates for assists and in leadership.

The question to me is if I believe his insane numbers will translate as a starter, on both sides of the court. He gives good effort and makes smart reads so a good coach will find a way to play him. But you're taking him because of an unprecedented efficiency in his numbers. If those can directly translate, awesome. You're not taking him because you expect him to get better than those numbers. To improve. Except maybe A/TO ratio. My guess is those numbers take a hit and do not climb again to those levels once he is facing better athletes and a scouting report that has him as your lead PG.

As for McCain, guards who rebound outsized for their position do tend to translate to good defenders at the next level. That's where you get your Kyle Lowry types. When I see a PG with 6 double digit rebounding games in a tough conference, I know I have a gamer. Yes he showed himself as a gunner on Duke, not a set-up man. He did show nice efficiency in the passes he took. Decisive and on point. I can see him developing in that direction as well. So if both players have the same areas of growth potential, which one has the tools for a higher upside? Reed is younger. McCain looks like he has a better frame for physical growth. I'll be curious to see the measurements at the combine.

If they are close, or if McCain has a chance to be better with growth, then to me the question is resource allocation. Shepp is slated top 5. McCain lower down. If you're picking 1-3 and a team makes an offer to trade up for Reed. Says 'pick Sheppard for us and we will pay you in picks,' I think you listen if you think you can get McCain lower down.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1537 » by doclinkin » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:34 pm

NatP4 wrote:Tankathon projects Topic as a 36.6% 3pt shooter, just a touch below Sheppard and McCain.

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=jared-mccain--reed-sheppard--nikola-topic


NBA average for a PG: 37.2% this year.
So you're projecting him as "just a touch below" average.
On very low volume of attempts.

Which still looks generous considering his 30% 3FG percentage this year. And his form.
McCain and Shepp shoot a pretty ball with classic form, high overhead, good jump under it.
In McCain's case at a high volume of attempts. Everyone knew he was shooting it from outside, he hit it anyway.

The biggest thing speaking for Topic is that he gets to the line at a good rate, and hits all his FTs when he's there. That lifts his scoring rate significantly. Though at the NBA level the new defensive emphasis does not give the benefit of the doubt to the offensive player, so he will probably struggle before he adjusts. Not pick up the easy FTs he gets against weaker competition. He will need the threat of that outside shot or else he won't have quite the same room to operate.

He might evolve a good outside shot when he gets to the league, but it will take some work and will be easily challenged until he does. Have you seen his form? He shoots it from his face. Blockable by even the shortest player in the league. He's not using the advantage of his 6'6" height, even if seven inches of that height is all neck.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1538 » by nate33 » Wed Apr 24, 2024 4:57 pm

doclinkin wrote:He might evolve a good outside shot when he gets to the league, but it will take some work and will be easily challenged until he does. Have you seen his form? He shoots it from his face. Blockable by even the shortest player in the league. He's not using the advantage of his 6'6" height, even if seven inches of that height is all neck.

To be fair, his neck is so long that if he shoots with a conventional shooting form, it looks like he shoots it from his face. :D
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1539 » by daSwami » Wed Apr 24, 2024 5:08 pm

nate33 wrote:
doclinkin wrote:He might evolve a good outside shot when he gets to the league, but it will take some work and will be easily challenged until he does. Have you seen his form? He shoots it from his face. Blockable by even the shortest player in the league. He's not using the advantage of his 6'6" height, even if seven inches of that height is all neck.

To be fair, his neck is so long that if he shoots with a conventional shooting form, it looks like he shoots it from his face. :D


Speaking of Topic's face - dude bears an uncanny resemblance to Joran van der Sloot.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1540 » by J-Ves » Wed Apr 24, 2024 6:16 pm

tontoz wrote:
J-Ves wrote:Love Reed Sheppard, just not for us. We need to draft upside and taking shrimp guards who don’t necessarily have a first option scorers mentality is a scary proposition. There’s no doubt in mind he has the highest floor in this draft but I don’t 100% believe he’s a starter in this league



I bet the Spurs take him if he is available.

The spurs have the luxury of taking a high floor guard to pair with their superstar big if they so choose. We are lacking high end talent and need to set our sights higher even if it’s a weak draft.

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