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The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking!

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1661 » by DCZards » Fri May 3, 2024 9:12 pm

nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I'll always err offense over defense when it comes to guards & forwards. The guard or wing would have to be hyperathletic freak for me to consider them otherwise (like Amen Thompson)

I'll always err defense over offense when in comes to Cs. A guy would have to be incredibly skilled like a young Jokic or even Tristan Vukcevic who I was fond of last draft cycle. Where you let his offensive skills shine while hopefully he works to improve defensively over time.

My view is that if you can't defend, you're not a starter unless you are a legit #1 option or at least a #1B on offense. Give me a Josh Hart over a Tyler Herro. Give me a Jaden McDaniels over a Kyle Kuzma.

If you can't defend, you better be James Harden/Kyrie Irving tier good on offense.

Offense vs defense. Always a good debate.

I have a tendency to agree with Nate that defense should be the priority. That’s why I favor Sarr as the #1 pick. He’s an excellent defender—with size and length—who will only get better.

It’s also why I’ve been high on Castle. His offense is shaky at this point but his great D and IQ are enough to jumpstart a very good career.

On the other hand though, you need a guy or guys who can what I call “score-on-demand.” I remember a Kentucky game late in the reg season where in the last few minutes of the game Dillingham TOOK OVER. Every one in the gym knew he was getting the ball but the defense still couldn’t stop him from scoring on drives to the basket, pull up jumpers, and 3 pointers.

Every team needs someone like that. It’s pretty much what Maxey, Brunson, Mitchell, and Edwards are doing for their teams.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1662 » by Dat2U » Fri May 3, 2024 11:54 pm

DCZards wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Dat2U wrote:I'll always err offense over defense when it comes to guards & forwards. The guard or wing would have to be hyperathletic freak for me to consider them otherwise (like Amen Thompson)

I'll always err defense over offense when in comes to Cs. A guy would have to be incredibly skilled like a young Jokic or even Tristan Vukcevic who I was fond of last draft cycle. Where you let his offensive skills shine while hopefully he works to improve defensively over time.

My view is that if you can't defend, you're not a starter unless you are a legit #1 option or at least a #1B on offense. Give me a Josh Hart over a Tyler Herro. Give me a Jaden McDaniels over a Kyle Kuzma.

If you can't defend, you better be James Harden/Kyrie Irving tier good on offense.

Offense vs defense. Always a good debate.

I have a tendency to agree with Nate that defense should be the priority. That’s why I favor Sarr as the #1 pick. He’s an excellent defender—with size and length—who will only get better.

It’s also why I’ve been high on Castle. His offense is shaky at this point but his great D and IQ are enough to jumpstart a very good career.

On the other hand though, you need a guy or guys who can what I call “score-on-demand.” I remember a Kentucky game late in the reg season where in the last few minutes of the game Dillingham TOOK OVER. Every one in the gym knew he was getting the ball but the defense still couldn’t stop him from scoring on drives to the basket, pull up jumpers, and 3 pointers.

Every team needs someone like that. It’s pretty much what Maxey, Brunson, Mitchell, and Edwards are doing for their teams.


Defensive impact is weighted heavier towards bigs. That's why it's a damn near deal breaker when a big is poor defender but I'm more willing to over look the issues of a weak defending guards/forwards.

Castle seems like the perfect teammate... until you ask him to take a jumpshot. That unwillingness to shoot manifests itself in opposing defenses basically ignoring him on the college level. That will only be amplified at the NBA level where he's no longer one of the more athletic players on the floor.

I'm sure Castle won't shrivel at NBA competition and lose himself like Johnny Davis did but are the two that dramatically different that we want to repeat the non-shooting SG that can defend his ass off and do a lil bit of everything yet be the master of nothing?
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1663 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 12:30 am

Dat2U wrote:Rough draft:

C
Alexandre Sarr (Top 3)
Kyle Filipowski (late lottery/mid-1st)
Donovan Clingan (late lottery/mid-1st)
Kel'el Ware (late lottery/mid-1st)
Zach Edey (Mid/late 1st)
Daron Holmes II (late 1st/early 2nd)
Yves Missi (late 1st/early 2nd)
Ryan Kalkbrenner (early 2nd rd)

PF
Tristan de Silva (Mid/late 1st)
Izan Almansa (early 2nd rd)
Bobi Klintman (early 2nd rd)
Coleman Hawkins (2nd rd)
Tyler Smith (2nd rd)

SF
Ron Holland (Top 5)
Matas Buzelis (mid lottery)
Zaccharie Risacher (mid/late lottery)
Dalton Knecht (late lottery/mid-1st)
Cody Williams (late lottery/mid-1st)
Johnny Furphy (mid/late 1st rd)
Melvin Ajinca (late 1st/early 2nd)
Dillon Jones (late 1st/early 2nd)
Tidjane Salaun (late 1st/early 2nd)
Kyshawn George (late 1st/early 2nd)
Baylor Scheierman (early 2nd rd)
Alex Karaban (early 2nd rd)
Ryan Dunn (2nd rd)
Harrison Ingram (2nd rd)
Payton Sandfort (2nd rd)

SG
Ja'Kobe Walter (mid/late 1st rd)
Stefon Castle (mid/late 1st rd)
Jaylon Tyson (late 1st/early 2nd)
Ajay Mitchell (late 1st/early 2nd)
Terrence Shannon Jr (late 1st/early 2nd)
Kevin McCullar (late 1st/early 2nd)
Hunter Sallis (early 2nd rd)
Trey Alexander (2nd rd)
Pacome Dadiet (2nd rd)
Cam Spencer (2nd rd)

PG
Rob Dillingham (Top 5)
Nikola Topic (Top 5)
Reed Sheppard (mid-lottery)
Jared McCain (late lottery)
Isaiah Collier (late lottery)
Tyler Kolek (mid/late 1st rd)
Devin Carter (mid/late 1st rd)
Carlton Carrington (late 1st/early 2nd)
K.J. Simpson (2nd rd)
Juan Nunez (2nd rd)
Jamal Shead (2nd rd)
Tristen Newton (2nd rd)
Reece Beekman (2nd rd)


Dat2, first of all Hello! Great work, per usual.

I haven't put any real time into this list but I've caught glimpses of a lot of these players. My favorites today:

Kel'El Ware
Dalton Knecht
Ron Holland
Tyler Kolek
Jamal Shead

I think the Wizards need to be athletic. Kolek would be the exception. I think he's a starting quality PG.

Shead is like a buzz saw of a competitor. I liked him and Sears from Alabama. Another guy I did like from Alabama is Grant Peterson.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1664 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 12:37 am

Dat2U wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
NatP4 wrote:I don’t know what Risacher has to do with Topic. I simply corrected you posting incorrect information, which you just did again when you said “Risacher has played well in Euroleague play”.]


Tell that to the 17 year old Risacher, who shot 39% from 3, and 58% from 2 in EuroLEAGUE play in 18 games with ASVEL in 13 mins a game. Since you like to rely so heavily on a player's high school numbers to predict the future.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/teams/villeurbanne/2023.html

Not what I meant, so I don't mind the correction. But the facts actually bore out my error. Which amuses me. Enjoying the irony.

But sure
I'll happily connect the dots on why to compare Risacher and Topic.
Both are basketball players.
Both are in the same draft.
Both are likely to be picked in the lotto.
We have one draft pick in the lotto.
That means if we want one, we have to decide which is better than the other.
Or more likely to succeed at the NBA level.
That means we should rank them.
You like Topic better.
I like Risacher better.
You told us to keep in mind that Topic played in a pro league with many former high level NCAA guys.
I kept that in mind.
Then looked it up.
He didn't.
For comparison's sake I cited Risacher's performance in a similar overseas league.
Turns out his competition was tougher.
Statistically, Topic was dominant. Though in a lesser league.
Whereas Risacher played a useful role, but against better competition.
The question in ranking them is: which guy's skill set is more likely to translate?
If both guys are available and other players we like are not. Which guy do you pick and why?
If Sarr, Castle, Sheppard and Clingan are gone and the Wiz slid to 5 in the lotto,
and are now on the clock looking at Topic or Risacher or anybody else.
Who do you got and why?

I say um, trade down for Kel'El Ware. Or let someone trade up for Topic and we take Knecht. Take a long hard look at Buzelis.
But if the FO is determined to pick one of the two Euros. I'm saying I think Risacher's skill set translates better and quicker to an NBA team. And he never seems disinterested on Defense.


I like Kel'el Ware as well. Projects as the modern 5. Probably won't be as productive as Edey but should defend the position better.

Knecht looks like the legit SF'sized version of Kispert. I don't think those two can play together as neither will be able to defend their position - I think long term Knecht will be more valuable as he appears to be a more aggressive scorer plus he has the frame to absorb contact.

I want to like Buzelis but I'm having trouble fully buying the jumper. I lean Holland over Buzelis after watching both take turns struggling in a #1 option role in the G-league. Holland's activity & athleticism give him a better baseline to work with.


Ware reminds me of Derrick Lively. He defends well and finishes everything tossed near him.

Knecht is better than Kispert. I think he's a much more aggressive scorer. Kispert might be a better three point shooter but I think Knecht attacks the rim better.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1665 » by Dat2U » Sat May 4, 2024 12:38 am

Hey CCJ! Sears needs to be on my list. Thanks for reminding me. Shead with our last pick would not be bad. He does remind a bit of former Alabama coach Avery Johnson. Question is can he make enough jump shots to keep the defenses honest.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1666 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 12:41 am

Dat2U wrote:Hey CCJ! Sears needs to be on my list. Thanks for reminding me. Shead with our last pick would not be bad. He does remind a bit of former Alabama coach Avery Johnson. Question is can he make enough jump shots to keep the defenses honest.

You're welcome. :D

Yes, defense, that's the issue.

I don't think Sears is anywhere near as strong as Avery, who if I remember correctly could bench press well over 300 lbs.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1667 » by Dat2U » Sat May 4, 2024 12:49 am

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
doclinkin wrote:
Tell that to the 17 year old Risacher, who shot 39% from 3, and 58% from 2 in EuroLEAGUE play in 18 games with ASVEL in 13 mins a game. Since you like to rely so heavily on a player's high school numbers to predict the future.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/international/teams/villeurbanne/2023.html

Not what I meant, so I don't mind the correction. But the facts actually bore out my error. Which amuses me. Enjoying the irony.

But sure
I'll happily connect the dots on why to compare Risacher and Topic.
Both are basketball players.
Both are in the same draft.
Both are likely to be picked in the lotto.
We have one draft pick in the lotto.
That means if we want one, we have to decide which is better than the other.
Or more likely to succeed at the NBA level.
That means we should rank them.
You like Topic better.
I like Risacher better.
You told us to keep in mind that Topic played in a pro league with many former high level NCAA guys.
I kept that in mind.
Then looked it up.
He didn't.
For comparison's sake I cited Risacher's performance in a similar overseas league.
Turns out his competition was tougher.
Statistically, Topic was dominant. Though in a lesser league.
Whereas Risacher played a useful role, but against better competition.
The question in ranking them is: which guy's skill set is more likely to translate?
If both guys are available and other players we like are not. Which guy do you pick and why?
If Sarr, Castle, Sheppard and Clingan are gone and the Wiz slid to 5 in the lotto,
and are now on the clock looking at Topic or Risacher or anybody else.
Who do you got and why?

I say um, trade down for Kel'El Ware. Or let someone trade up for Topic and we take Knecht. Take a long hard look at Buzelis.
But if the FO is determined to pick one of the two Euros. I'm saying I think Risacher's skill set translates better and quicker to an NBA team. And he never seems disinterested on Defense.


I like Kel'el Ware as well. Projects as the modern 5. Probably won't be as productive as Edey but should defend the position better.

Knecht looks like the legit SF'sized version of Kispert. I don't think those two can play together as neither will be able to defend their position - I think long term Knecht will be more valuable as he appears to be a more aggressive scorer plus he has the frame to absorb contact.

I want to like Buzelis but I'm having trouble fully buying the jumper. I lean Holland over Buzelis after watching both take turns struggling in a #1 option role in the G-league. Holland's activity & athleticism give him a better baseline to work with.


Ware reminds me of Derrick Lively. He defends well and finishes everything tossed near him.

Knecht is better than Kispert. I think he's a much more aggressive scorer. Kispert might be a better three point shooter but I think Knecht attacks the rim better.


Knecht gives Dan Majerle types vibes offensively but it's going to be a problem covering him up defensively much like it is with Kispert.

Ware I like too. He fits the athleticism & skillset of a modern day center. Had to work through some immaturity issues at Indiana. Bigs do develop slower so I cut him some slack there. I think the stuff we can't get a clear read on ... background checks & in team interviews will determine how high he goes. There's alot of decent Cs in the draft. So he could fall pretty far with guys like Clingan, Filipowski, Missi & Edey in the mix.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1668 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 12:58 am

Thunder Dan Majerle is an excellent comparison, Dat.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1669 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 1:10 am

Cody Williams has a brother in the league IIRC. He fits the profile of a kid who could blow up at the next level.

If he's the pick I wouldn't be upset but he's kind of redundant with this year's pick.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1670 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Sat May 4, 2024 1:20 am

MemphisX wrote:
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1671 » by DCZards » Sat May 4, 2024 3:55 am

Dat2U wrote:Castle seems like the perfect teammate... until you ask him to take a jumpshot. That unwillingness to shoot manifests itself in opposing defenses basically ignoring him on the college level. That will only be amplified at the NBA level where he's no longer one of the more athletic players on the floor.

I'm sure Castle won't shrivel at NBA competition and lose himself like Johnny Davis did but are the two that dramatically different that we want to repeat the non-shooting SG that can defend his ass off and do a lil bit of everything yet be the master of nothing?

While I share your concern about Castle’s shooting, I don’t think he lacks any confidence nor did I see any unwillingness to shoot. Kid had 21 pts in the Final Four semifinal and 15 in the championship game.

Castle has the potential to be a much better playmaker than Davis plus with his size, length and athleticism he'll score at the rim...something Davis struggles doing. I don't think we saw a lot of Castle's offensive capabilities because he was on a talented, veteran UConn team where he was the fourth or fifth option.

He's not my first or second choice for the Zards but he's in the top 5.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1672 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat May 4, 2024 4:26 pm

Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Cody Williams has a brother in the league IIRC. He fits the profile of a kid who could blow up at the next level.

If he's the pick I wouldn't be upset but he's kind of redundant with this year's pick.



My 2 favorites at the top are Castle & Cody Williams. But I can be sold on Sarr...

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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1673 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sat May 4, 2024 4:41 pm

Dat2U wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:
Dat2U wrote:
I like Kel'el Ware as well. Projects as the modern 5. Probably won't be as productive as Edey but should defend the position better.

Knecht looks like the legit SF'sized version of Kispert. I don't think those two can play together as neither will be able to defend their position - I think long term Knecht will be more valuable as he appears to be a more aggressive scorer plus he has the frame to absorb contact.

I want to like Buzelis but I'm having trouble fully buying the jumper. I lean Holland over Buzelis after watching both take turns struggling in a #1 option role in the G-league. Holland's activity & athleticism give him a better baseline to work with.


Ware reminds me of Derrick Lively. He defends well and finishes everything tossed near him.

Knecht is better than Kispert. I think he's a much more aggressive scorer. Kispert might be a better three point shooter but I think Knecht attacks the rim better.


Knecht gives Dan Majerle types vibes offensively but it's going to be a problem covering him up defensively much like it is with Kispert.

Ware I like too. He fits the athleticism & skillset of a modern day center. Had to work through some immaturity issues at Indiana. Bigs do develop slower so I cut him some slack there. I think the stuff we can't get a clear read on ... background checks & in team interviews will determine how high he goes. There's alot of decent Cs in the draft. So he could fall pretty far with guys like Clingan, Filipowski, Missi & Edey in the mix.



I like Ware a lot too. Not sure how high he goes. A lot of players I really like in the mid 1st range like Ware and Kyshawn George, make me interested in trading down from the top or moving up from 26.

Not sure why we'd use a high pick on Knecht when we could get Scheierman or Sandfort later ...



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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1674 » by dobrojim » Sat May 4, 2024 5:25 pm

Sarr now 2nd to Risacher on Tankathon. Kolek climbed a few spots from our late 1st rnd.

I find Tankathon a bit confusing when I look at draft position vs stat strengths/weaknesses.
I don't see an explanation for that apparent mismatch. Those 2 top guys do not have
impressive stat weakness/strength. It's striking to me that Sarr is supposedly valued for his
defensive potential but the stats say he hasn't really shown it yet. I'd worry about that
as D and rebounding require a lot of 'want to' in becoming successful, not that experience
isn't important

I had forgotten that Knecht was so old.

re age - everyone seems to agree younger players have more growth potential, a point in their favor,
but fewer seem to value the more immediate impact an older more experienced player can provide.

Players like Knecht and Kolek seem more poised to step into a rotation role than some of the 1 and done players.
But of course generalizing about this can get you in trouble.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1675 » by doclinkin » Sat May 4, 2024 5:48 pm

DCZards wrote:
Dat2U wrote:Castle seems like the perfect teammate... until you ask him to take a jumpshot. That unwillingness to shoot manifests itself in opposing defenses basically ignoring him on the college level. That will only be amplified at the NBA level where he's no longer one of the more athletic players on the floor.

I'm sure Castle won't shrivel at NBA competition and lose himself like Johnny Davis did but are the two that dramatically different that we want to repeat the non-shooting SG that can defend his ass off and do a lil bit of everything yet be the master of nothing?

While I share your concern about Castle’s shooting, I don’t think he lacks any confidence nor did I see any unwillingness to shoot. Kid had 21 pts in the Final Four semifinal and 15 in the championship game.

Castle has the potential to be a much better playmaker than Davis plus with his size, length and athleticism he'll score at the rim...something Davis struggles doing. I don't think we saw a lot of Castle's offensive capabilities because he was on a talented, veteran UConn team where he was the fourth or fifth option.

He's not my first or second choice for the Zards but he's in the top 5.



Agreed on Castle. Except he IS the guy I want most in this draft.

I don't see him as unwilling to shoot so much as understanding his role. Playing it exactly as required of him. To the extent where he won a championship. On UConn he was not only the 2nd most impactful defender, but a primary screener, the best on the team at getting a post entry pass to the big, had great timing and reads on back-door cuts etc. He showed a veteran NBA-translatable game as the most important glue guy in the NCAA championship run. On any team. The high volume gunnery would be left to prior champions Newton & Karaban and the offensive hitman brought in for off-ball movement/offense in Cam Spencer.

But if you look at his High School games you see Castle as a first option scorer who had some blistering head-to-head games with Isaiah Collier. His reliable shot at that level was a pull-up middy, aside from anything attacking the basket. But his shot does not need to be totally rebuilt. He's shooting above 75% from the line, which indicates he can add a jumper with decent extended range. He has a winning mindset, and will follow the role that he is asked to do. I expect that includes raising his offensive game.

I don't see Johnny Davis. The only similarity is that Davis played high effort defense in college. But on offense he was a gunner in college, he took every shot for that team. Mostly bad shots since he was doubled. Some went in, but they were bad shots. Inefficient. In the NBA he realized his game did not translate at all. Too short, not quick enough, his high volume low-percentage, no passing, average handle, none of that was helpful to a team. But he had nothing else. Screening? Passing? Athleticism to raise his game? Those were not strengths. The only thing that got him to the NBA was his willingness to work hard. Not enough.

By contrast Castle starts his NBA career with all of the habits required at the next level with the exception of that me-first attack mode. Though that was his game in high school. On top of that he's got good length, good athleticism, a useful handle, an aptitude for passing, in highschool he was a set-up man. AND he is noted for having that work ethic. To me with this front office that is key. We are expecting our draftees to build skills that will maximize their NBA effect. Castle to me has the strongest base of useful skills combined with upside of any of the players mocked at the top of the draft.

Sarr: big man who doesn't play big. Upside, but no instant role. Has all the talent to play big, but not the aggression needed to intimidate on the interior or snatch rebounds. Can't teach competitiveness. His best hope comes from adding strength so he learns not to be timid on the inside.

Sheppard: already maxed out on "fundamentally skilled"; athletic upside limited. Only area of probable development is PG team leadership. He won't get quicker feet. Already plays as well as you can expect in every category of basic basketball aptitude.

Topic: prodigy ballhandler who does nothing off ball, on either side of the ball. Jumpshot needs complete overhaul.

Risacher: good size for a wing scorer. developing nicely. good effort/instincts on team defense. Needs muscle. Is his inconsistency a product of youth/growing pains/injury or lack of fire?

Dillingham: genius scorer, who will always be too small. You trade one side of the ball for the other.

Castle: former 1st option scorer, converted to role-player on a veteran team in order to win a chip. Did. Can he regain his attack mode instincts? Signs point to yes.

Honestly for me Castle has become my #1 overall as the player who is most likely to fulfill his talents. We don't need him as our centerpiece star. We are hoping to land that guy in the next draft. But to me he has the profile of a guy who will win MIP at some point in his career, and fight his way into all-star conversations. We draft our Pippen first, then find our Jordan next draft.

Do I want him at #1? I want to slip a notch or two out of the top spot where he will be on the board, so it is no question that he's the best guy. Better still I'd love to earn a top pick then for multiple teams to fall in love with Topic or Sarr and offer us assets to move up. We slide, pick up something extra, then still take Castle. Once he is on the Winger/Dawkins improvement plan regimen, I expect he will check off every damn box they put in front of him.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1676 » by Dat2U » Sat May 4, 2024 7:14 pm

I struggle to understand Stefon Castle's upside simply because he has a solid foundation of skills yet Reed Sheppard is a guy that's clearly maxed out his ability.

Castle does not strike me as a great athlete nor does he have a quick first step. He doesn't have a quick processor like Sheppard or Anthony Black where he can be a step a head when it comes to seeing the floor and reading defenses. Also nearly EVERY NBA prospect was a major scoring option in HS. I doubt any guard/wing would be considered a significant prospect without some first option on-ball experience in their background.

Against NCAA competition, there was a real recognition of Castle's shooting flaws to point where teams where collapsing the paint and daring him to shoot. Pointing to a 75% ft isn't the answer, it shows that there might be a possible solution but it's not something I'd just assume will be fixed ... just like I can't assume Ron Holland becomes a plus shooter.

Shooting will be major point of contention when Castle barely makes 25% of his college 3pt attempts on 2 ***wide open attempts*** per game. Assuming a guy like that will become even an average NBA 3pt shooter feels like a major stretch. Without him becoming a passable 3 pt shooter I don't see an avenue to where he isn't a significant offensive negative on the floor.

I would NOT draft Castle in the top 10. I think he's a late lottery/ mid-1st. I cannot assume he'll turn his biggest weakness into a strength and I don't think he has the skill or athleticism to offset that.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1677 » by DCZards » Sat May 4, 2024 8:09 pm

Sometimes a player’s poise and maturity are what jumps out at you. Those are strengths that Castle displayed as a 19 yr old freshman on a team with high expectations…and playing on the biggest stages.

Yes, ‘Bama left Castle wide open from 3 on UConn’s first two possessions of a NCAA Final Four game…and, guess what, he nailed both shots.

Dat, I remember you and I having a similar debate about Brunson. I liked Brunson as a PG who relied on his craftiness and smarts, and thought he could be a good NBA player despite his lack of size, quickness, and athleticism.

You weren’t a fan of Brunson’s skillset and thought he wasn’t worth drafting, IIRC.

I have a similar vibe about Castle as I did about Brunson…smart, poised, a leader, a national champion.

Again, the concerns about Castle’s shooting are legit. But I’d take a chance on him improving in that area.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1678 » by J-Ves » Sat May 4, 2024 8:20 pm

How does this sub feel about potentially using our late first on Nikola Djurisic? Perhaps even going Serb-Serb in the first and if you include last year's draft that would be a 3 Serb streak :D
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1679 » by doclinkin » Sat May 4, 2024 8:24 pm

Dat2U wrote:I struggle to understand Stefon Castle's upside simply because he has a solid foundation of skills yet Reed Sheppard is a guy that's clearly maxed out his ability.

Castle does not strike me as a great athlete nor does he have a quick first step. He doesn't have a quick processor like Sheppard or Anthony Black where he can be a step a head when it comes to seeing the floor and reading defenses. Also nearly EVERY NBA prospect was a major scoring option in HS. I doubt any guard/wing would be considered a significant prospect without some first option on-ball experience in their background


Difference of opinion.

I'm looking towards the anthro portion of the Combine. Sheppard looks to me like he will come in small. I think he will be quicker than expected in the agility drills, but didn't see that translate in games. He does get blown past by quicker athletes.

He's smart enough to make up the difference in the NCAA level. His processor is top notch no question. I like him as prospect and think he will develop nicely as a floor general. Which is a good thing since he's not going to get quicker or longer at the next level. His insane efficiency will take a hit and his defense will have to scramble to catch up. It would be remarkable if any player could put up those numbers in the NBA. I don't think he will ever duplicate them, since those are HOF numbers, but I do think he will be good after an adjustment period. I've said I see him as Tyus Jones with better team defense. That's a damned good player. I'd be happy to have him on the team, though I agree with you that he will be a complementary player, not a lead attacker. Vulnerable to quicker faster longer stronger athletes early.

I say he has less room for improvement because he put out maxed out historic numbers that we have never seen before. But on a team where he could pick and choose his moments since others took greater focus of defense. He was smart enough to use his opportunities. That part will translate. Once he adjusts to the speed and length and devours scouting reports on his own. To my read his best advantage in the NCAA was his brain talent. Bodes well as a PG. The place I think he has the most room for improvement is in that lead guard role. He got a few reps in the role, but was 4th option on the team and was not the focus of scouting reports. When he gets comfortable I think he can orchestrate some wins out of vision and foresight.

By contrast. Castle had no problem picking up full court and keeping in front of the fastest ballhandlers in the game. You don't see a great athlete. Whereas I saw him keeping up with the best athletes he faced, while moving backwards. Cornerback. You think he wasn't showing advanced processing, I watched his reads off-ball and saw him adjusting in the most complex scheme in the game. You say you'd draft Dan Hurley #1. I agree, in part because he can scheme the helloutta a game. The freshman Castle was a key part of that scheme. He was playing the role developed for upperclassman Andre Jackson in the last UConn run. Spencer and Karaban got open shots off of the dirty work that Castle put in.

Against NCAA competition, there was a real recognition of Castle's shooting flaws to point where teams where collapsing the paint and daring him to shoot. Pointing to a 75% ft isn't the answer, it shows that there might be a possible solution but it's not something I'd just assume will be fixed ... just like I can't assume Ron Holland becomes a plus shooter.

Shooting will be major point of contention when Castle barely makes 25% of his college 3pt attempts on 2 ***wide open attempts*** per game. Assuming a guy like that will become even an average NBA 3pt shooter feels like a major stretch. Without him becoming a passable 3 pt shooter I don't see an avenue to where he isn't a significant offensive negative on the floor.


It's an assessment more than wild assumption. Based on watching his jumper. He has a hitch at the top of his shot because he tries to re-balance mid-air. This means he hits with accuracy at mid-range, but loses power when he extends his range since he is shooting at zero-point or almost on the way down. The power of his legs does not carry to the ball. That is fixed primarily with repetition and timing. Confidence. But his form is pretty solid. A shooting coach can fix that with a film session and a summer of work. Or improve it at least. I think it shows upside more than other defensive oriented combo guards we have seen:

https://tankathon.com/players/compare?players=stephon-castle--dyson-daniels--anthony-black

I think it is more of a stretch to say Anthony Black has a hands-down better processor than Castle, when Castle showed the better Ast/TO ratio at nearly 2:1. Both put up 4 assists/36 but Black coughed it up more than 3 times/36. I'd say if you watch videos breaking down Hurley's offense, you'd have a solid appreciation of the things Castle was asked to do at a veteran level.

I will say I do think he will struggle early on offense until he gets a reliable jumper. If he's my guy its because I think he will live up to his max potential over time with steady improvement year after year. A team will get excellent value out of his 2nd contract. Even if critics may complain looking at his rookie production compared to his whole career. Why I want him later on in the draft, with less pressure.
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Re: The (way too early) 2024 Draft thread. Woo! Tanking! 

Post#1680 » by payitforward » Sat May 4, 2024 8:30 pm

doclinkin wrote:...Castle: former 1st option scorer, converted to role-player on a veteran team in order to win a chip. Did. Can he regain his attack mode instincts? Signs point to yes.

Honestly for me Castle has become my #1 overall as the player who is most likely to fulfill his talents.... I'd love to earn a top pick then for multiple teams to fall in love with Topic or Sarr and offer us assets to move up. We slide, pick up something extra, then still take Castle. Once he is on the Winger/Dawkins improvement plan regimen, I expect he will check off every damn box they put in front of him.

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