GT 40 City with Too Many Knicks Fans @ City with More Knicks Fans

[queridiculo]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

Bagley, looked impressive, it's kind of crazy how he went from being the next big thing from highschool all the way to college, to the next big bust

[tontoz]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

Bagley, looked impressive, it's kind of crazy how he went from being the next big thing from highschool all the way to college, to the next big bust

He really wasn't a bust though, just a disappointment. Being drafted before Luka makes him look like a bust by comparison. He averaged 20/10 per 36 his first 3 seasons.

I think part of his efficiency problem has been from shooting jumpers, including 3s. He isn't shooting outside 10 feet this season which has improved his efficiency. Assuming that continues i don't see any reason why he can't be an efficient scorer.

[nate33]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

I'm a big time supporter of Deni and even I get annoyed with the Deni-centric perspective on all of these game threads. He is a 3rd/4th option on offense. He is not a shot creator. He is a guy who should be attacking when it's opportunistic because the defense is rotating. On some nights, he'll look great because of the way defenses are ignoring him. On other nights, he should defer because defenses are playing him straight up (which means they aren't loading up on better offensive players).

You don't build an offense designed to get Deni X number of shots a game. His usage is going to be highly dependent on the way defenses are playing him. And that's fine.

[nate33]

I'm not going to get too excited yet about Bagley because of his track record. Two bad teams have given him away for nothing, and there has to be a reason. I'm just hoping that that reason was immaturity and inconsistency, and Bagley has grown out of it.

One thing that interests me is that he has a game very similar to Gafford. They're both a little undersized and they're both rim-runners with a limited perimeter game. Bagley seems to have a little more polish around the rim, but Gafford doesn't really need polish because he just goes through people.

Bagley's presence could make Gafford more available for trade. If Bagley plays like this for two weeks, is it possible that Gafford is traded by the Deadline for a FRP? There are a bunch of teams that would really covet Gafford, and unlike with the Tyus situation, the teams that need him also have FRP's to trade.

OKC would love to have him, I bet. He'd look great in Dallas, New Orleans, LA Lakers and Miami too.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Deni is out with 6 fouls. now tell me... why he is the one that did the foul when you have Kuz and Jones with 2 fouls.. Bugley with 3... and Poole? 1 foul!!

He had no choice there. I think it was OG with the ball and he had a lot of space in front of him that he could have taken some valuable seconds off the clock there.

[badinage]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

I'm a big time supporter of Deni and even I get annoyed with the Deni-centric perspective on all of these game threads. He is a 3rd/4th option on offense. He is not a shot creator. He is a guy who should be attacking when it's opportunistic because the defense is rotating. On some nights, he'll look great because of the way defenses are ignoring him. On other nights, he should defer because defenses are playing him straight up (which means they aren't loading up on better offensive players).

You don't build an offense designed to get Deni X number of shots a game. His usage is going to be highly dependent on the way defenses are playing him. And that's fine.

Here’s the thing, though.

And I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say, but:

A smart coach would make absolutely certain that he’s highly involved in the offense on every possession, that he’s moving the ball, and that others are moving around him. That he’s making the hockey assist and the assist. That he’s got the green light to drive and kick or drive and shoot. When he’s going, this looks like an actual NBA team. He needs to be getting touches. That’s not to say he has to have the ball in his hands all the time. But he goes many, many possessions without seeing the ball. And when that happens, unless one of his teammates is hot, the team suffers. He might not be the best player on the team (whatever that even means, on a team that isn’t any good), but in my book he’s the most valuable. A coach like Rick Carlisle or Steve Kerr would know exactly what to do with Deni.

[dckingsfan]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

I'm a big time supporter of Deni and even I get annoyed with the Deni-centric perspective on all of these game threads. He is a 3rd/4th option on offense. He is not a shot creator. He is a guy who should be attacking when it's opportunistic because the defense is rotating. On some nights, he'll look great because of the way defenses are ignoring him. On other nights, he should defer because defenses are playing him straight up (which means they aren't loading up on better offensive players).

You don't build an offense designed to get Deni X number of shots a game. His usage is going to be highly dependent on the way defenses are playing him. And that's fine.

Here’s the thing, though. And I don’t disagree with a lot of what you say, but:

A smart coach would make absolutely certain that he’s highly involved in the offense on every possession, that he’s moving the ball, and that others are moving around him. That he’s making the hockey assist and the assist. That he’s got the green light to drive and kick or drive and shoot. When he’s going, this looks like an actual NBA team. He needs to be getting touches. That’s not to say he has to have the ball in his hands all the time. But he goes many, many possessions without seeing the ball. And when that happens, unless one of his teammates is hot, the team suffers. He might not be the best player on the team (whatever that even means, on a team that isn’t any good), but in my book he’s the most valuable. A coach like Rick Carlisle or Steve Kerr would know exactly what to do with Deni.

I think there can be too much about Deni but also making this solid argument about WUJ. He doesn't seem to know how to optimize for the team. On offense he just does the too much Poole/Kuz.

At the same time, sometimes I see Deni also not being aggressive and stepping back - this is probably a two-way street. And this wasn't a night where Deni's A/TO > 2 or that he was hitting his 3. It was a night where he was providing D & rebounding.

[dckingsfan]

I'm not going to get too excited yet about Bagley because of his track record. Two bad teams have given him away for nothing, and there has to be a reason. I'm just hoping that that reason was immaturity and inconsistency, and Bagley has grown out of it.

One thing that interests me is that he has a game very similar to Gafford. They're both a little undersized and they're both rim-runners with a limited perimeter game. Bagley seems to have a little more polish around the rim, but Gafford doesn't really need polish because he just goes through people.

Bagley's presence could make Gafford more available for trade. If Bagley plays like this for two weeks, is it possible that Gafford is traded by the Deadline for a FRP? There are a bunch of teams that would really covet Gafford, and unlike with the Tyus situation, the teams that need him also have FRP's to trade.

OKC would love to have him, I bet. He'd look great in Dallas, New Orleans, LA Lakers and Miami too.

This. I also watched Bagley a lot through his career (given the start in Sac). He rebounds like a PF which is okay when you have Kuz & Deni rebounding well. He doesn't block or alter shots like Gafford does though. And yes, he is more polished but (as you allude to not more efficient (IMO, he would have needed to develop a consistent 3 to be a force on offense).

So, Gafford will have a lot of trade value and Bagley not so much until he is an expiring next year.

And if we trade Kuz instead, that is okay as Bagley is actually more efficient at PF than C (not long-term but during the tank).

I still like the trade.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

I'm a big time supporter of Deni and even I get annoyed with the Deni-centric perspective on all of these game threads. He is a 3rd/4th option on offense. He is not a shot creator. He is a guy who should be attacking when it's opportunistic because the defense is rotating. On some nights, he'll look great because of the way defenses are ignoring him. On other nights, he should defer because defenses are playing him straight up (which means they aren't loading up on better offensive players).

You don't build an offense designed to get Deni X number of shots a game. His usage is going to be highly dependent on the way defenses are playing him. And that's fine.

I'll stand up for the Deni "stans" and posit some points:

1. Who ever has said Deni should be treated like a #2 option, let alone a #1 option on this board? Maybe there are some that believe that, I certainly don't, at least at this given time. I think more of the general consensus is that 1) they shouldn't park him in the corner to jack up threes, 2) let him be a secondary (sometimes primary) ball handler, 3) don't have long stretches where he is frozen out on offense barely touching the ball when he's on the court, and 4) don't have a short leash with him in games where he has a tough night from the field

Maybe Kuzma wouldn't have the repertoire he does today if he wasn't allowed to throw up shots on crappy Laker teams for his first couple of season, to test things out, to learn some things out there and playing through mistakes. That's at least what I would like to see with the Denis and Bilals of the world. We suck, we aren't going anywhere, let the young guys that have a future learn out there.

2. Deni's minutes shouldn't be predicated on just offense, he does a lot of little things out there. Obviously this game isn't the best example, Deni had by far the worst +/- on the team for the night (though it felt fluky to me based on how he was defending it panned out that way), but it happens a lot where WUJ has a short leash with the guy.

Brunson was going nuts in the fourth and you would think you go back to the dude who was doing better than anybody on him. But Shamet makes a couple of threes, so he can do no wrong.

To me it's plainly unacceptable that every Wizard starter played at least 8 more minutes than Deni, including Poole who was 7-19 out there, 2-9 from three, and a grand total of 4 rebounds and 2 assists. Deni also actually had a better TS% in last night's game compared to Mr. High Usage Kuzma while playing 13 less minutes and scoring the same amount of points, and still grabbing 2 more rebounds.

So yeah, to some, that looks pretty odd and unfair when you see those disparities from a coach like WUJ who we all know doesn't know how to manage vets. That's why it's a constant theme in the game threads because it happens all the time.

3. It's a great time to try to figure out the unknown, to see if Deni can handle more usage over an extended stretch of games while we are a garbage team. Nobody really knows how much usage Deni can handle because he's always had to take a backseat to veterans even though we are always still a crappy team. Now is that to say Deni won't struggle if he takes on more of an offensive role? Of course not, that's part of growing, but to act as if it is somehow codified into stone that Deni just can't handle more usage is simply untrue because he's never really been given that opportunity.

4. There are two players on this team that have a legitimate future on this team in Bilal and Deni. So yeah, Deni is going to get a lot of attention and he's not in his rookie season like Bilal is.

[pcbothwel]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

Bagley, looked impressive, it's kind of crazy how he went from being the next big thing from highschool all the way to college, to the next big bust

He really wasn't a bust though, just a disappointment. Being drafted before Luka makes him look like a bust by comparison. He averaged 20/10 per 36 his first 3 seasons.

I think part of his efficiency problem has been from shooting jumpers, including 3s. He isn't shooting outside 10 feet this season which has improved his efficiency. Assuming that continues i don't see any reason why he can't be an efficient scorer.

Bagley problem is simple. Modern NBA requires that you can:
1) Shoot
2) Play Defense/Versatility
3) Pass/Play with vision/anticipation

If you can do 2/3 at a high level, you'll play a decade. Bagley cant spread the floor, cant defend on the perimeter/rotate, and doesn't pass/see the floor well.
He is fine as a buy low to eat minutes at the 5... but thats it unless he takes a HUGE leap.

[tontoz]

The Deni stans are too much is one of two takeaways from this game.

Bagley, looked impressive, it's kind of crazy how he went from being the next big thing from highschool all the way to college, to the next big bust

He really wasn't a bust though, just a disappointment. Being drafted before Luka makes him look like a bust by comparison. He averaged 20/10 per 36 his first 3 seasons.

I think part of his efficiency problem has been from shooting jumpers, including 3s. He isn't shooting outside 10 feet this season which has improved his efficiency. Assuming that continues i don't see any reason why he can't be an efficient scorer.

Bagley problem is simple. Modern NBA requires that you can:
1) Shoot
2) Play Defense/Versatility
3) Pass/Play with vision/anticipation

If you can do 2/3 at a high level, you'll play a decade. Bagley cant spread the floor, cant defend on the perimeter/rotate, and doesn't pass/see the floor well.
He is fine as a buy low to eat minutes at the 5... but thats it unless he takes a HUGE leap.

No, he doesn't have to shoot. Gafford doesn't shoot outside 10 feet and he's been fine.

The defense is a valid issue and remains to be seen. I am not conviced that he is incapable of doing it. He also needs to be active on the boards.

But shooting/passing isn't a requirement for a big, assuming there are other guys who can handle that.

[nate33]

He really wasn't a bust though, just a disappointment. Being drafted before Luka makes him look like a bust by comparison. He averaged 20/10 per 36 his first 3 seasons.

I think part of his efficiency problem has been from shooting jumpers, including 3s. He isn't shooting outside 10 feet this season which has improved his efficiency. Assuming that continues i don't see any reason why he can't be an efficient scorer.

Bagley problem is simple. Modern NBA requires that you can:
1) Shoot
2) Play Defense/Versatility
3) Pass/Play with vision/anticipation

If you can do 2/3 at a high level, you'll play a decade. Bagley cant spread the floor, cant defend on the perimeter/rotate, and doesn't pass/see the floor well.
He is fine as a buy low to eat minutes at the 5... but thats it unless he takes a HUGE leap.

No, he doesn't have to shoot. Gafford doesn't shoot outside 10 feet and he's been fine.

The defense is a valid issue and remains to be seen. I am not conviced that he is incapable of doing it. He also needs to be active on the boards.

But shooting/passing isn't a requirement for a big, assuming there are other guys who can handle that.

Yeah, I disagree with these criteria.

To be a quality starting center in the NBA, you need to do two of these things on defense:

1. Dominant rebounder
2. Protect the rim
3. Switchable on the perimeter

plus one of these two things on offense:

4. Elite roll threat
5. Accurate pick-and-pop shooter

However, if you can be an offensive hub from the high post, you can get away with only doing 1 of the 3 defensive criteria.

Guys like Robinson, Zubac and Gobert can do 1, 2 and 4
Guys like Porzingis and Turner can do 1, 2 and 5
Guys like Bam and JJJ can do 2, 3 and 5
Jokic, Sabonis and Sengun can be a high post hub plus they do #1.

Gafford and Bagley aren't quite starting-caliber centers because they only do 2 and 4.

[pcbothwel]

Bagley problem is simple. Modern NBA requires that you can:
1) Shoot
2) Play Defense/Versatility
3) Pass/Play with vision/anticipation

If you can do 2/3 at a high level, you'll play a decade. Bagley cant spread the floor, cant defend on the perimeter/rotate, and doesn't pass/see the floor well.
He is fine as a buy low to eat minutes at the 5... but thats it unless he takes a HUGE leap.

No, he doesn't have to shoot. Gafford doesn't shoot outside 10 feet and he's been fine.

The defense is a valid issue and remains to be seen. I am not conviced that he is incapable of doing it. He also needs to be active on the boards.

But shooting/passing isn't a requirement for a big, assuming there are other guys who can handle that.

Yeah, I disagree with these criteria.

To be a quality starting center in the NBA, you need to do two of these things on defense:

1. Dominant rebounder
2. Protect the rim
3. Switchable on the perimeter

plus one of these two things on offense:

4. Elite roll threat
5. Accurate pick-and-pop shooter

However, if you can be an offensive hub from the high post, you can get away with only doing 1 of the 3 defensive criteria.

Guys like Robinson, Zubac and Gobert can do 1, 2 and 4
Guys like Porzingis and Turner can do 1, 2 and 5
Guys like Bam and JJJ can do 2, 3 and 5
Jokic, Sabonis and Sengun can be a high post hub plus they do #1.

Gafford and Bagley aren't quite starting-caliber centers because they only do 2 and 4.

You’re overthinking it. I wasn’t talking about bigs. I’m talking about playing winning basketball at the professional level.
You’re simply listing a more detailed/nuanced set of skills.