Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable

[Wizardspride]

Here we go with the racism defense again. What a bunch of hooey.

Sorry buddy but its not a bunch of "hooey" . Racism will be a factor in this election.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

[nate33]

Here we go with the racism defense again. What a bunch of hooey.

Sorry buddy but its not a bunch of "hooey" . Racism will be a factor in this election.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Yes, racism will be a factor. But it's a small factor that's been known throughout the campaign. closg00 made it sound like Obama is taking a hit now because the Republicans "went racist" on him at the convention.

It is a given that there is a percentage of the population (most older, rural voters) who will not vote for a black candidate. But there is also a percentage of voters who are voting for Obama because he is black (or at least their enthusiasm is greater specifically because he is black). Democrats knew this when they nominated him. They made the calculation that the anti-Obama racism bias wasn't sigificant in the important swing stats, or that the pro-Obama racism bias would counterweight the anti bias. Like I said earlier, Democrats were smug in their belief that Obama was unbeatable.

Now that things are going bad for Obama, I don't want to hear any whining about racism, particularly when the McCain campaign (and even most of the responsible conservative bloggers and talk show hosts) have stayed away from the race subject altogether.

[closg00]

Obama had his post-convention bounce, and now McCain has had his. The debates will be crucial.

Obama made a HUGE mistake in not selecting Hillary as his running-mate.

If Obama were white, the election would not even be close. One of the pundits said "The Democrats selected the only candidate that could lose" and Republicans selected the only canditate that could win" McCain is really running as as Independent.

Here we go with the racism defense again. What a bunch of hooey.

Two weeks ago, Democrats were smug in the knowlege that Obama was an unbeatable force of nature. There was no sactimonious crap about the Democrats selecting "the only candidate that could lose". Give me a break.

Nate, you are incredibly naive. What % of the American population do you think, would never vote for a black President %3,%5, %10? It's the elephant in the room that the MSM is not talking about. Even Rush Limbaugh factors this into his opinon that McCain has always been closer than the polls have indicated. This an election that could come down to small percentages in battle-ground states.
It is fact that there is % of voters who will never vote for a black canditate, fact!

The Obama campaign has always said that this would be a closely fought election, I don't know to whom you are referring to about this "unbeatable force"

[miller31time]

^^^ That is true (and I don't believe we Obama supporters were ever "smug" or thought he was unbeatable - not most, at least. If they did, it was probably more because they believed the Republicans couldn't field a proper candidate and because of the Nation's hatred towards Bush. Not so much Obama's super-stardom), however, the majority of people who won't be voting for Obama due to his race are primarily the people who are in more rural states. These people might have voted for the Democratic candidate if he were white, but their state would have gone to the Republican candidate anyway, so it's a moot point (IMO).

Though I guess a case can be made for states like Florida who can go either way but are heavily populated by older voters.

[badinage]

Here we go with the racism defense again. What a bunch of hooey.

Sorry buddy but its not a bunch of "hooey" . Racism will be a factor in this election.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Yes, racism will be a factor. But it's a small factor that's been known throughout the campaign. closg00 made it sound like Obama is taking a hit now because the Republicans "went racist" on him at the convention.

It is a given that there is a percentage of the population (most older, rural voters) who will not vote for a black candidate. But there is also a percentage of voters who are voting for Obama because he is black (or at least their enthusiasm is greater specifically because he is black). Democrats knew this when they nominated him. They made the calculation that the anti-Obama racism bias wasn't sigificant in the important swing stats, or that the pro-Obama racism bias would counterweight the anti bias. Like I said earlier, Democrats were smug in their belief that Obama was unbeatable.

Now that things are going bad for Obama, I don't want to hear any whining about racism, particularly when the McCain campaign (and even most of the responsible conservative bloggers and talk show hosts) have stayed away from the race subject altogether.

It's not an issue -- but it's the text and subtext of the campaign. No need to talk about it for it to be the subject.

You said that McCain does not talk about it. Correction: he does not talk about it openly. He hints, he codes. The us vs. them message comes across.

And that's just at the top of the campaign -- what's seen. The Republican machinery is doing its usual dirty work at the grass roots, across the country, Roving it up and pitting Obama as a suave WIllie Horton. Believe it.

[MF23]

Nobody has ever said Obama wasn't beatable. He barley won his parties election. Voter polls really don't mean anything unless they are done in swing states.

I thought Rudy's speech was polarizing. A bunch of entitled rich people laughing at someone. Great TV! Palin gave a good rah rah speech. Shouldn't have attacked Obama but she's being told what to say so I can't blame her too much. She will be good for McCain but it will be obvious she's not in Hillary's league.

[daSwami]

Where are crackhead and greendale? now those guys know how to debate politics. actually, forget greendale, he voted for bush last time, which, as far as i'm concerned, negates his credibility. in fact, I don't think anyone who voted for bush should be allowed to vote in this election due to the fact that they're stupid.

[dobrojim]

Hey Doc

while I'm definitely on your side and was actually a supporter of Clark in 2004,
I have become considerably less approving of him since reading Bacevich's
The New American Militarism which I heartily recommend to all. Great read
for lib/cons/dems/pubs all. That said, I heartily concur with the quotes
you posted.

not interested in reading the book? His interview on Moyers was riveting
[edit to add, can be streamed]
although he didn't have anything (IIRC) to say about Gen Clark specifically.

[penbeast0]

And, there are some voters that will always vote for the black candidate . . . question is how many of each (and how many of the black racial voters would never vote for a Republican anyway).

And . . . as a history teacher, not sure it's a compliment to be compared to Kennedy as a President (as a speaker, sure) . . . his track record was mixed to be polite.

[Dat2U]

Where are crackhead and greendale? now those guys know how to debate politics. actually, forget greendale, he voted for bush last time, which, as far as i'm concerned, negates his credibility. in fact, I don't think anyone who voted for bush should be allowed to vote in this election due to the fact that they're stupid.

After watching the last two elections closely, I've come to the conclusion that pretty much half of voting public is stupid. Seriously, they should require that an IQ test be taken prior to voting. Anyone with less than an IQ of 100 couldn't vote. That would pretty much wipe out the "middle america" that conservatives love to pander to so much but do so little to help. It would also wipe out entire states like West Virginia & Kentucky.

America deserves whatever it gets if they vote for another Repub again. The evil in me says let McCain get elected. I don't see him lasting four years anyway. And when Palin takes control after McCain kicks the bucket, we can all watch her run the country further into the ground.

[Cramer]

I just want to make sure I've got the last couple of pages straight.

1. If you're a republican you're stupid.
2. If you're a republican you're a racist.
3. If Obama were white it'd be no contest, even though he almost certainly wouldn't have gotten the nomination. Ok, that last point was mine.
4. If Obama doesn't win it's because of all the stupid racist middle American's voting against him because he's black. Well, anybody that doesn't vote for him is stupid and racist, plain and simple.
5. If that rampant racism doesn't get it done the republicans will simply steal the election. Again.

Does that pretty much sum it up? What an enlightened group.

[daSwami]

Where are crackhead and greendale? now those guys know how to debate politics. actually, forget greendale, he voted for bush last time, which, as far as i'm concerned, negates his credibility. in fact, I don't think anyone who voted for bush should be allowed to vote in this election due to the fact that they're stupid.

After watching the last two elections closely, I've come to the conclusion that pretty much half of voting public is stupid. Seriously, they should require that an IQ test be taken prior to voting. Anyone with less than an IQ of 100 couldn't vote. That would pretty much wipe out the "middle america" that conservatives love to pander to so much but do so little to help. It would also wipe out entire states like West Virginia & Kentucky.

Careful Dat, you might get labeled an elitist.

Funny how Pubs get their panties in a wad whenever Dems bring up the old "we're smarter than you" argument, claiming we're "elitist" snobs. However they don't stop for a minute to consider how condescending their whole notion of the "liberal media" is. It's basically their way of saying that Democratsonly vote the way they do because they're heads are full of propoganda and they're too dumb to realize it. Same argument, just framed differently.

[Bickerstaff]

After watching the last two elections closely, I've come to the conclusion that pretty much half of voting public is stupid. Seriously, they should require that an IQ test be taken prior to voting. Anyone with less than an IQ of 100 couldn't vote. That would pretty much wipe out the "middle america" that conservatives love to pander to so much but do so little to help. It would also wipe out entire states like West Virginia & Kentucky.

It's attitudes like this that have us where we are. Too many people on both sides look down on the other side in such a hateful, dehumanizing way. Just because people have different values than you doesn't mean they're stupid or evil. I know it's an ugly (as usual) election race and we all get a little worked up, but keep it in perspective. I'd love to see the voters in those places wake up and stop voting for the party of the rich, but they don't have a monopoly on low IQs. I live in Brooklyn, and it's full of idiots.

[daSwami]

I just want to make sure I've got the last couple of pages straight.

1. If you're a republican you're stupid.
2. If you're a republican you're a racist.

Actually i think you've got it flipped. It would probably be more accurate to say something like:

If you're stupid or a racist, then you are more than likely to vote republican.

[Cramer]

I just want to make sure I've got the last couple of pages straight.

1. If you're a republican you're stupid.
2. If you're a republican you're a racist.

Actually i think you've got it flipped. It would probably be more accurate to say something like:

If you're stupid or a racist, then you are more than likely to vote republican.

No, I think I hit your view right on the head the first time around. But what do I know? You guys are smarter than me. More enlightened and certainly don't have that rebel flag hanging in the garage next to the white sheet like me.

The irony in some of these posts are so sweet I want to dip my balls in it.

[daSwami]

I just want to make sure I've got the last couple of pages straight.

1. If you're a republican you're stupid.
2. If you're a republican you're a racist.

Actually i think you've got it flipped. It would probably be more accurate to say something like:

If you're stupid or a racist, then you are more than likely to vote republican.

No, I think I hit your view right on the head the first time around.

Thanks for telling me my own point of view. In fact, keep the strawmen coming, sometimes we dems need to be reminded what we really think, what with our being brainwashed and all.

[Cramer]

Thanks for telling me my own point of view. In fact, keep the strawmen coming, sometimes we dems need to be reminded what we really think, what with our being brainwashed and all.

I missed the part where I called you brainwashed but I did catch this.

Where are crackhead and greendale? now those guys know how to debate politics. actually, forget greendale, he voted for bush last time, which, as far as i'm concerned, negates his credibility. in fact, I don't think anyone who voted for bush should be allowed to vote in this election due to the fact that they're stupid.

And we republicans need to be reminded that we can't or won't think.

And I read your supposed equating of the "we're smarter than you" argument and the liberal media viewpoint. Do you really think you'd have the same reaction if I made these two comments:

1. Swami, I think I'm way smarter than you.
2. I think the media is biased as hell.

If I think the media is liberally biased that means I think you're too stupid to make your own decision and have been brainwashed? I mean talk about you're strawman arguments.

[yungal07]

I just want to make sure I've got the last couple of pages straight.

1. If you're a republican you're stupid.
2. If you're a republican you're a racist.

Actually i think you've got it flipped. It would probably be more accurate to say something like:

If you're stupid or a racist, then you are more than likely to vote republican.

LOL nicely done...

[Dat2U]

I'll give the repbs this...they sure know how to frame an argument. As soon as people started its vetting and questioning of Sarah Palin, the Repubs and their voice box FoxNews go into an all out attack against the "liberal media". Accusing the media of everything under the sun from sexism, to bashing mothers to attacking the heart of small town american values. What a load a bunk. Somehow what Joe Blow posts in some non-descript blog online about Palin and her kids gets framed as some left wing attack sponsored by the democratic loving MSM.

The problem is the Right Wing Media is far more organized and disciplined in their talking points. They blow away the democrats in terms of being able to stay on message. I must give them credit where its due.

[daSwami]

Thanks for telling me my own point of view. In fact, keep the strawmen coming, sometimes we dems need to be reminded what we really think, what with our being brainwashed and all.

I missed the part where I called you brainwashed but I did catch this.

Where are crackhead and greendale? now those guys know how to debate politics. actually, forget greendale, he voted for bush last time, which, as far as i'm concerned, negates his credibility. in fact, I don't think anyone who voted for bush should be allowed to vote in this election due to the fact that they're stupid.

Do you really think you'd have the same reaction if I made these two comments:

1. Swami, I think I'm way smarter than you.
2. I think the media is biased as hell.

If I think the media is liberally biased that means I think you're too stupid to make your own decision and have been brainwashed? I mean talk about you're strawman arguments.

re: #1, I'd probably agree that you're smarter than me. (funnier, too, usually).
re:#2, sort of agree (I think the bias cuts both ways, and we tend to choose the messenger that brings us the news we want to hear).

And yup, I made a strawman, you called a spade a spade. Good call, my bad.

And if you'd allow me to pull a CCJ for a sec, let me apologize for the error of my ways. I regret engaging at this childish level. However, here's where my heads at in all this: I am completely disappointed with the direction the country has gone under the Bush Administration. Today it appears as if the same people who (wrongly) supported Bush the last 2 election cycles are going to put the wrong man in the White House again. We are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and we are all sitting here watching it happen. The problem, as Bickerstaff eluded to earlier, is that the two-party system, by nature, creates an hostile us vs. them dynamic that forces people to choose sides and defend that side. Being called stupid only makes someone cling to their side that much more adamently, and I'm sorry that I stooped to that level.

there, i'm done sullying this thread with my vitriol. I will leave the debating to the pros.