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Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable

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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#41 » by yungal07 » Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:26 pm

nate33 wrote:
yungal07 wrote:
nate33 wrote:Attacking Obama's experience is perfectly legitimate. Democrats should feel free to try to attack Palin on the same issue. That's what you do in politics. I'm truly confounded by your anger here.



And they have, only to be accused of sexism by the McCain camp :lol: .

No, they're being accused of sexism for attacking her ability to be a VP with 5 children.

The McCain camp response to attacks on Palin's experience is to attack Obama's experience.

I pointed this out on the Current Events board the day Palin was selected for VP. It was a stroke of genius because it would goad the Democrats to attack her experience, which would ultimately force people to consider Obama's experience. Neither one of them have extensive experience, but one of them is running for President while the other is merely running for Vice President. At least the Vice Presidency has some leeway for on the job training.


Really Nate?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... paign.html

“I am appalled by the Obama campaign’s attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin’s experience," said RNC Victory 2008 Chair and senior McCain adviser Carly Fiorina today in a statement. "The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a Mayor and Governor than Barack Obama has made in his life. Because of Hillary Clinton’s historic run for the Presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin.”


Is attacking Palin for inexperience sexist?
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#42 » by miller31time » Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:32 pm

nate33 wrote:No, they're being accused of sexism for attacking her ability to be a VP with 5 children.


Who are you referring to when you say "they"? Obama certainly hasn't said anything about it. None of the Democratic leaders have said anything about it (to my knowledge).

The only people talking about that are the media and even THEY say it's just not that big of a deal.

You can't possibly deny that Republicans are over-using the sexism card.

Here's a good example (one of many).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oxZYoVdV7A

Skip to about the 5:30 mark when James Carville talks about Palin's credentials. Whether you agree with his stance on them or not, they are not sexist.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#43 » by nate33 » Thu Sep 4, 2008 8:51 pm

yungal07 wrote:Really Nate?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... paign.html

“I am appalled by the Obama campaign’s attempts to belittle Governor Sarah Palin’s experience," said RNC Victory 2008 Chair and senior McCain adviser Carly Fiorina today in a statement. "The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a Mayor and Governor than Barack Obama has made in his life. Because of Hillary Clinton’s historic run for the Presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Governor Palin.”


Is attacking Palin for inexperience sexist?

I stand corrected. That's the first I heard from the McCain campaing denouncing attacks on Palin's experience to be sexist. I disagree with the McCain campaign on that issue. Questions regarding Palin's experience are clearly legitimate.

One might argue that inexperience accusations would not have been made if Palin was a man. If I were running McCain's campaign, I wouldn't make that argument though. Palin's a big girl. She can take it. Let the voter decide if those kinds of accusations are sexist. Fiorna sounds like a whiner. Voters (particularly conservative voters) don't like whiners.

FWIW, my general impression of the Convention speeches last night was that the RNC was attacking the media for their sexists remarks about Palin's children. They attacked Obama on experience. They were not attacking Obama for being sexist.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#44 » by Dat2U » Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:36 pm

Man, the Republicans sure know how to frame a debate. Because of the Repubs war in the recent days on the "liberal, elitist media", they've made any attack against Palin, issues based or not, into a "sexist" attack on all women and a form of talking down to "middle america"

Also the idea that Palin has more foreign policy experience than Obama because Alaska is the closest state to Russia or because as governer she signs the paperwork associated with the Alaska National Guard is ridiculous.

The funniest thing is no one is even picking up on the outrageous statements made by the minister of Palin's Church, the Assembly of God in Wasilla, Alaska. If Rev. Wright was an issue for Obama, then something has to be said about a guy that says critics of G.W. Bush will all go to hell. Palin also apparently attended a sermon targeting and attacking Jews.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#45 » by doclinkin » Thu Sep 4, 2008 9:54 pm

What's absurd to me is that anyone would suggest that Palin's selection had anything to do with her status as the most qualified for the job.

Governor of a small state, mayor of a tiny town, middling track record in her brief time (leaving her town swimming in debt, despite Federal largess amounting to $4,000 per person). She's under investigation for abusing her position of power to benefit her family, and has used state funds to employ her family lawyer. She's been a member of an Alaskan separatist organization, stated she had no interest in being VP unless it benefited Alaska. has shown no particular interest in national politics, much less international experience beyond stating that God wanted America in Iraq.

And as far as judgment is concerned, while it's tough to credit the idea that she faked her pregnancy to cover for her underage daughter (with the cover story that her daughter's current pregnancy is a fiction) -- that's all real X-Files wingnut stuff, tough to swallow. But nevertheless allowing that she was pregnant (Sara, not Bristol) she chose to fly to a conference while more than 8 and a half months pregnant-- which is against airline regulations considering danger to both infant and mother, especially with a high-risk pregnancy (a mother in her mid-40's).

Say all you want about the 'brilliant' selection, but if she were at the top of the ticket as President there's no way she'd be elected. Essentially this is a naked political move, typically politically cynical. She reassures the base, allows counter-arguments on the experience issue etc. lets the 'pubs wallow in delicious irony and hypocrisy squealing about 'sexism'. All well and good. But nothing to do with putting the country first and picking the best person for the job. Nothing to do with picking he best possible replacement president under the worst possible circumstances (ie the death of the commander in chief).

Looking at actuarial tables, a 72 year old man has a 12 year life expectancy, irrespective of the multiple cases of skin cancer he's already suffered. A slip in the shower, a vigorous session with his mistress, one peanut going the wrong way down the pipes...

Now look. Can she serve as president? I hope never to know-- as do we all, I'm sure. She's brighter than the last guy, it'd be about as easy to give her the same rack of advisors and tell her where to stand and what to say (apparently the speech they wrote for the Veep candidate was 'too masculine', and had to be re-drafted. For whatever it's worth at least Obama can write his own thoughts). That's what a cabinet is for.

I'm just tired of the game that treats us all like idiots, and expects us to believe the various carefully crafted fictions. I get spin-sick. She's a crappy candidate, plain and simple-- man, woman, hairless house ape, whatever. And please, let's not hear about the executive experience involved in sucking on the federal teat for big money grants to a small town you left in debt, or acting as governor to a state that has fewer people than Obama's congressional district. Nobody expects her 'executive' experience to mean diddly to McCain if he were elected, it's not like he'll be running to her for advice on how a real life executive does it.

Nobody's stupid enough to believe the 'pubs even believe that.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#46 » by fugop » Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:02 pm

From today, "uppity."

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/wes ... 09-04.html

Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term "uppity" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#47 » by nate33 » Thu Sep 4, 2008 11:20 pm

doclinkin wrote:What's absurd to me is that anyone would suggest that Palin's selection had anything to do with her status as the most qualified for the job.

Governor of a small state, mayor of a tiny town, middling track record in her brief time (leaving her town swimming in debt, despite Federal largess amounting to $4,000 per person). She's under investigation for abusing her position of power to benefit her family, and has used state funds to employ her family lawyer. She's been a member of an Alaskan separatist organization, stated she had no interest in being VP unless it benefited Alaska. has shown no particular interest in national politics, much less international experience beyond stating that God wanted America in Iraq.

And as far as judgment is concerned, while it's tough to credit the idea that she faked her pregnancy to cover for her underage daughter (with the cover story that her daughter's current pregnancy is a fiction) -- that's all real X-Files wingnut stuff, tough to swallow. But nevertheless allowing that she was pregnant (Sara, not Bristol) she chose to fly to a conference while more than 8 and a half months pregnant-- which is against airline regulations considering danger to both infant and mother, especially with a high-risk pregnancy (a mother in her mid-40's).

Say all you want about the 'brilliant' selection, but if she were at the top of the ticket as President there's no way she'd be elected. Essentially this is a naked political move, typically politically cynical. She reassures the base, allows counter-arguments on the experience issue etc. lets the 'pubs wallow in delicious irony and hypocrisy squealing about 'sexism'. All well and good. But nothing to do with putting the country first and picking the best person for the job. Nothing to do with picking he best possible replacement president under the worst possible circumstances (ie the death of the commander in chief).

Looking at actuarial tables, a 72 year old man has a 12 year life expectancy, irrespective of the multiple cases of skin cancer he's already suffered. A slip in the shower, a vigorous session with his mistress, one peanut going the wrong way down the pipes...

Now look. Can she serve as president? I hope never to know-- as do we all, I'm sure. She's brighter than the last guy, it'd be about as easy to give her the same rack of advisors and tell her where to stand and what to say (apparently the speech they wrote for the Veep candidate was 'too masculine', and had to be re-drafted. For whatever it's worth at least Obama can write his own thoughts). That's what a cabinet is for.

I'm just tired of the game that treats us all like idiots, and expects us to believe the various carefully crafted fictions. I get spin-sick. She's a crappy candidate, plain and simple-- man, woman, hairless house ape, whatever. And please, let's not hear about the executive experience involved in sucking on the federal teat for big money grants to a small town you left in debt, or acting as governor to a state that has fewer people than Obama's congressional district. Nobody expects her 'executive' experience to mean diddly to McCain if he were elected, it's not like he'll be running to her for advice on how a real life executive does it.

Nobody's stupid enough to believe the 'pubs even believe that.

:roll:
Yada yada yada.

And what makes Barack Obama such a strong candidate?
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#48 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:26 am

nate33 wrote:Yada yada yada.

And what makes Barack Obama such a strong candidate?


Right, the old 'I know you are but what am I' deflection. We've already established that as a primary reason she was selected. But I doubt you've convinced yourself yet.

At some point staying 'on message' fails the sniff test on truth. Don't answer me, but ask yourself the quiet question: If John McCain kicked it today, pre-November 4, then Sara Palin would be the best qualified leader in the race? Sara Palin is whom you want as your diplomat preventing a reignited Cold War in Russia?

Look some part of what makes a good leader is the ability to inspire folks to want to follow your lead. Tough to deny Obama has the ability to inspire. Even his detractors allude to it. Oh sure he's a great orator, and yeah he's really popular, and right he's real smart and all, and fine he _seems_ to strike a conciliatory note, and fine fine he sounds reasonable and all, but uh... uh...

But aside from intelligence, diplomatic ability, the talent to mobilize masses and convert doubters to supporters, what makes him qualified to lead?

Over the past 8 years we've squandered the 'peace dividend', gutted science programs, gutted education, gutted regulatory agencies ensuring clear air, water, power plants, food, medicine, we drove the economy into the toilet, lost ground to China and Europe, lost friends and allies overseas and in the war against terror, gotten entrenched into a strategically questionable and unimaginably costly ground war (in a supposed Nation-building exercise that we continue to finance despite the host nation having a multi-billion dollar surplus of their own), a war that has sapped our resources, strengthened our enemies, and contributed to the loss of an entire American city to a preventable disaster, a war that has only served to enrich the corporation that our VP worked for and the Oil industry that earned the president his livelihood. Oh and he presided over the widening of the largest gap between the rich and poor, hell the middle class and rich. We've made the middle class into the newly poor with deregulated home loan industry.

I would say that a track-record of support for these policies should lead you to question a man's judgment. Even the Repubs at the convention (and Lieberman) suggest that Washington has done a pisspoor job, needs to be kicked into shape -- and a guy who's been there for the past three decades is just the man to do it. Because he's a 'maverick', which means every now and again he'll uncork an attitude and act nasty, even while voting to support the president, (or failing to show up to vote at all). But he's a 'maverick'. Or grouchy old guy, whatever you want to call it.

Fact is we've lost ground in the Intel community in part because we've pissed off our allies, with 'go-it alone' snap judgements and bullheadedness. We've made it tougher to recruit based on the loss of our international reputation as the white hat good guys. The America of our Statue of Liberty, the America of principles, where all men are created equal, and so on. (And nevermind recruitment overseas-- selling out our own agents, and cooking data has torpedoed morale and confidence within the organizations.)

But instead say two words: 'Abu Ghraib'. Suddenly you've just recruited dozens of potential terrorists. Seems to me we could have done a lot better to defeat terrorism if we hadn't squandered the (terrible) opportunity that the World Trade towers' fall gave us. That for once in our history the US was the underdog. Countries (and international police organizations) were rushing to help, cooperating like never before. Hell, sending money, as they did post-New Orleans.

As for economics: we all try to ignore the concept that our money is essentially based on a fiction. It has no inherent value except what we all consensually agree or believe it has. Your gasoline receipts are an extension of that mutual illusion, since gas speculation drives up the futures cost on gas and so on. That's exciting if you're buying gas futures in a period of pessimism, but if your grocery bill and car cost count for a significant portion of your income, or if you struggle to pay your heating bill, it's not so fun. I have friends who got free heating oil from Hugo Chavez' giveaway last winter, who's doing the better job of recruiting?

But the ability to inspire confidence, to excite optimism, to get my son's friends fired up to actually participate in the political process, to put 85,000 people on the edge of their seats, to excite more people to tune-in than watched anything other than the superbowl and a limited few other events. To excite people to donate in small dollars, more than the massive lobbying firms and corporate donors available to the other side of the aisle. To get young people and old eager to volunteer their time. Seems to me that's the exact sort of energy that can help turn around consumer confidence, inspire extra effort. To risk optimism.

Way I see it, there's a reason why Democrats always seem to preside over a strong economy, and seems to me, some part of it, not insignificant, is that they sell a more hopeful vision of the future and human nature. More ideals, less fear. The scared man hoards, the hopeful man tries new ventures.

And overseas the ability to invigorate our allies can go a long way in asking other countries to help foot the bills and clean up some messes that none of us started, none of us wanted, but it's just the right thing to do. The ability to tell a convincing narrative and make people feel good about joining your side is what is called Diplomacy.

Seems to me you'd have a tough case to make trying to convince anybody that Jon McCain inspires confidence. Especially not when his primary selling point is that he's irascible and stubborn.

What an Obama election could mean socially and inspirationally to a whole generation of kids who have checked out and look only to athletes, musicians and 'gangstas' as role models-- who feel like school, politics, etc is for other people-- is a whole 'nother story. My son, who was an indifferent and checked-out student in highschool now has the idea that a brownskinned kid like him can actually get good grades at a community college, transfer to a better school, graduate from Georgetown law and start working in politics. Helping people. Last year he was trying to be hanging out with Latin Kings. (Okay, thinking he could change gangs into positive forces for change, but still).

Just saying, there's no more 'The Man is keeping me down' garbage if your president played by the rules and got elected. There's no more feeling foreign in your own country just because your parents weren't born here, if your own president had a dad with a funny name. It took JFK to start the peace corps, to suggest we all find a way to volunteer and pitch in: "Ask not..." And here we have a guy who's a literal child of that urge for altruistic idealism, a child of the peace corps. But leavened with a few real world truths, it's a hard life out there, brownskinned, single mother, the America I know. It's hard.

Conspiracy guy would say: The biggest danger lies in if they do him like they did JFK, like they did Bobby, like they did Martin, hoping to have a reason to jumpstart martial law and seize what might slip away. Grab the last few scraps before there's nothing left to grab.

I'm tired of fear. The shxt doesn't work. Tell you what, 8 years of the other way, I sure don't feel any safer. Seems to me terror and all is a virus, no way to kill it all, but you can inoculate the body politic by living right, live up to the true meaning of our creed. Like the carpenter said, if you ain't against me, you're on my side. NOT the other way around.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#49 » by Kanyewest » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:40 am

This clip from the daily show is about what conservatives are saying right now about Palin vs. what they said before she was picked to be vice president.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8uGenNjOAI
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#50 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:04 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:Yada yada yada.

And what makes Barack Obama such a strong candidate?


Right, the old 'I know you are but what am I' deflection. We've already established that as a primary reason she was selected. But I doubt you've convinced yourself yet.

At some point staying 'on message' fails the sniff test on truth. Don't answer me, but ask yourself the quiet question: If John McCain kicked it today, pre-November 4, then Sara Palin would be the best qualified leader in the race? Sara Palin is whom you want as your diplomat preventing a reignited Cold War in Russia?

Look some part of what makes a good leader is the ability to inspire folks to want to follow your lead. Tough to deny Obama has the ability to inspire. Even his detractors allude to it. Oh sure he's a great orator, and yeah he's really popular, and right he's real smart and all, and fine he _seems_ to strike a conciliatory note, and fine fine he sounds reasonable and all, but uh... uh...

But aside from intelligence, diplomatic ability, the talent to mobilize masses and convert doubters to supporters, what makes him qualified to lead?

Over the past 8 years we've squandered the 'peace dividend', gutted science programs, gutted education, gutted regulatory agencies ensuring clear air, water, power plants, food, medicine, we drove the economy into the toilet, lost ground to China and Europe, lost friends and allies overseas and in the war against terror, gotten entrenched into a strategically questionable and unimaginably costly ground war (in a supposed Nation-building exercise that we continue to finance despite the host nation having a multi-billion dollar surplus of their own), a war that has sapped our resources, strengthened our enemies, and contributed to the loss of an entire American city to a preventable disaster, a war that has only served to enrich the corporation that our VP worked for and the Oil industry that earned the president his livelihood. Oh and he presided over the widening of the largest gap between the rich and poor, hell the middle class and rich. We've made the middle class into the newly poor with deregulated home loan industry.

I would say that a track-record of support for these policies should lead you to question a man's judgment. Even the Repubs at the convention (and Lieberman) suggest that Washington has done a pisspoor job, needs to be kicked into shape -- and a guy who's been there for the past three decades is just the man to do it. Because he's a 'maverick', which means every now and again he'll uncork an attitude and act nasty, even while voting to support the president, (or failing to show up to vote at all). But he's a 'maverick'. Or grouchy old guy, whatever you want to call it.

Fact is we've lost ground in the Intel community in part because we've pissed off our allies, with 'go-it alone' snap judgements and bullheadedness. We've made it tougher to recruit based on the loss of our international reputation as the white hat good guys. The America of our Statue of Liberty, the America of principles, where all men are created equal, and so on. (And nevermind recruitment overseas-- selling out our own agents, and cooking data has torpedoed morale and confidence within the organizations.)

But instead say two words: 'Abu Ghraib'. Suddenly you've just recruited dozens of potential terrorists. Seems to me we could have done a lot better to defeat terrorism if we hadn't squandered the (terrible) opportunity that the World Trade towers' fall gave us. That for once in our history the US was the underdog. Countries (and international police organizations) were rushing to help, cooperating like never before. Hell, sending money, as they did post-New Orleans.

As for economics: we all try to ignore the concept that our money is essentially based on a fiction. It has no inherent value except what we all consensually agree or believe it has. Your gasoline receipts are an extension of that mutual illusion, since gas speculation drives up the futures cost on gas and so on. That's exciting if you're buying gas futures in a period of pessimism, but if your grocery bill and car cost count for a significant portion of your income, or if you struggle to pay your heating bill, it's not so fun. I have friends who got free heating oil from Hugo Chavez' giveaway last winter, who's doing the better job of recruiting?

But the ability to inspire confidence, to excite optimism, to get my son's friends fired up to actually participate in the political process, to put 85,000 people on the edge of their seats, to excite more people to tune-in than watched anything other than the superbowl and a limited few other events. To excite people to donate in small dollars, more than the massive lobbying firms and corporate donors available to the other side of the aisle. To get young people and old eager to volunteer their time. Seems to me that's the exact sort of energy that can help turn around consumer confidence, inspire extra effort. To risk optimism.

Way I see it, there's a reason why Democrats always seem to preside over a strong economy, and seems to me, some part of it, not insignificant, is that they sell a more hopeful vision of the future and human nature. More ideals, less fear. The scared man hoards, the hopeful man tries new ventures.

And overseas the ability to invigorate our allies can go a long way in asking other countries to help foot the bills and clean up some messes that none of us started, none of us wanted, but it's just the right thing to do. The ability to tell a convincing narrative and make people feel good about joining your side is what is called Diplomacy.

Seems to me you'd have a tough case to make trying to convince anybody that Jon McCain inspires confidence. Especially not when his primary selling point is that he's irascible and stubborn.

What an Obama election could mean socially and inspirationally to a whole generation of kids who have checked out and look only to athletes, musicians and 'gangstas' as role models-- who feel like school, politics, etc is for other people-- is a whole 'nother story. My son, who was an indifferent and checked-out student in highschool now has the idea that a brownskinned kid like him can actually get good grades at a community college, transfer to a better school, graduate from Georgetown law and start working in politics. Helping people. Last year he was trying to be hanging out with Latin Kings. (Okay, thinking he could change gangs into positive forces for change, but still).

Just saying, there's no more 'The Man is keeping me down' garbage if your president played by the rules and got elected. There's no more feeling foreign in your own country just because your parents weren't born here, if your own president had a dad with a funny name. It took JFK to start the peace corps, to suggest we all find a way to volunteer and pitch in: "Ask not..." And here we have a guy who's a literal child of that urge for altruistic idealism, a child of the peace corps. But leavened with a few real world truths, it's a hard life out there, brownskinned, single mother, the America I know. It's hard.

Conspiracy guy would say: The biggest danger lies in if they do him like they did JFK, like they did Bobby, like they did Martin, hoping to have a reason to jumpstart martial law and seize what might slip away. Grab the last few scraps before there's nothing left to grab.

I'm tired of fear. The shxt doesn't work. Tell you what, 8 years of the other way, I sure don't feel any safer. Seems to me terror and all is a virus, no way to kill it all, but you can inoculate the body politic by living right, live up to the true meaning of our creed. Like the carpenter said, if you ain't against me, you're on my side. NOT the other way around.

Oh I see. Obama is qualified because he's a liberal. McCain is not qualified because he is (somewhat) conservative. Why didn't you just say so in the first place?

That's cool if that's what you believe. But spare me the diatribe about Palin's woeful lack of experience when her qualifications are every bit as good as Obama's. Obama has just as much shady dirt in his background (William Ayers, Rezko, etc.).
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#51 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 12:21 pm

At-least we are all hoops fans here, regardless of politics. :usa:
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#52 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:17 pm

Let's see if I can view this w/o political goggles:
1. Was Sarah Palin the most qualified Republican in the country for VP? No.
2. Was Sarah Palin picked for political reasons? Yes
3. Was Obamah the most qualified Democrat in the country for President? No.
4. Do we generally get the most qualified person in the country for either job? No.


Are most people on the thread still just reading sources that already agree with them and then parrotting the info back out or viewing everything through tinted glasses? Yes.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#53 » by Cramer » Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:31 pm

yungal07 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Chocolate City Jordanaire wrote:Fear of celebrity, nate, in likening Barack to Paris Hilton, for one. They're selling the idea that Barack's inexperienced and that the only reason he's a candidate is he's a celebrity.

The idea that it's okay to bring in Palin as a person who would have a 20% chance of becoming Prez, but that Barack is some unknown commodity is character assassination and fearmongering.

Guys like Lieberman (do you watch the Daily Show--he praised Barack big time in 2006 when Joe needed reelection himself) who denigrate Obama's inexperience just get on my nerves, nate.

No arguments, man. Vote your conscience. I don't think race is on your mind but i DO think it's THE CENTRAL ISSUE. Just my opinion, man.

That Paris Hilton campaign ad wasn't hateful or fearmongering. It was a humerous attempt to imply that Obama was all style and no substance. That's a perfectly normal accusation in American politics. I find nothing offensive about it whatsoever. If you're that upset about the ad, you haven't been following politics much.

Attacking Obama's experience is perfectly legitimate. Democrats should feel free to try to attack Palin on the same issue. That's what you do in politics. I'm truly confounded by your anger here.



And they have, only to be accused of sexism by the McCain camp :lol: .


Nope, the sexism charges related to how could she be VP when she had 5 kids to raise. A question that would never be asked of a man. When Biden lost his wife and infant child about 20 years ago no one suggested he should stay home and raise his other child.

The experience issue with Palin was defended by shooting back at Obama's and comparing the two, and he's the one running for President. She stacks up very favorably, to put it mildly. But when she did that she was being a "bitch." You can decide for yourself if that might be considered sexist.

And to those that think the only reason Obama might lose is because of race, with his lack of experience and the many many very questionable associations in his past, IMO, he wouldn't have come close to getting the nomination if he were white. He might be on the ticket but Hillary would be at the top of it.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#54 » by Cramer » Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:35 pm

Dat2U wrote:

The funniest thing is no one is even picking up on the outrageous statements made by the minister of Palin's Church, the Assembly of God in Wasilla, Alaska. If Rev. Wright was an issue for Obama, then something has to be said about a guy that says critics of G.W. Bush will all go to hell. Palin also apparently attended a sermon targeting and attacking Jews.


Did she sit through that one time or did she sit through that sort of thing for about 20 years and proclaim the guy her spiritual advisor?
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#55 » by nate33 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 2:49 pm

Dat2U wrote:The funniest thing is no one is even picking up on the outrageous statements made by the minister of Palin's Church, the Assembly of God in Wasilla, Alaska. If Rev. Wright was an issue for Obama, then something has to be said about a guy that says critics of G.W. Bush will all go to hell. Palin also apparently attended a sermon targeting and attacking Jews.

It was a guest speaker doing a one-time sermon. It was not Palin's regular pastor. That's a far cry from Obama's 20-year relationship with Wright. Wright presided over Obama's marriage and baptized their children.

A spokesman for the McCain campaign, Michael Goldfarb, said Palin did not know Brickner would be speaking that day and did not share his views.

Church pastor Larry Kroon confirmed that Palin, the governor of Alaska who was chosen last week by U.S. Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) to join his GOP presidential ticket, would have had no way of knowing that Brickner was slated to speak.

“Governor Palin does not share the views he expressed, and she and her family would not have been sitting in the pews of this church for the last seven years if his remarks were even remotely typical,” Goldfarb wrote in an e-mail.

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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#56 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:31 pm

It is entirely possible that Palin won't be on the ticket for much longer.

*The report on her abuse of power investigation is expected to be damaging to Palin, and it will be released right before the election.
* The National Enquirer will be publishing an article detailing her adulterous affair with her husbands business partner(?) (Great family values huh?). Right-wing radio LOVED the John Edwards expose' in the Enquirer, but are oddly mute on the impending Palin bombshell in the Enquirer.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#57 » by MF23 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 3:39 pm

nate33 wrote::roll:
Yada yada yada.

And what makes Barack Obama such a strong candidate?



Here is what I've observed.

Obama has a better stance on energy and Iraq independency.

McCain of course has a track record so he's more reliable in all facets. McCain seems more aggressive in his approach to using the Military. It wouldn't surprise me if he tried to get a mandatory service law passed. I kind of like that Idea if it's rational and short in time.

On ability to inspire and convince people I definitely give the nod to Obama. That is a very big thing for me. The majority has to not revolt against the President. Bush may have a low approval but it's not like the majority of us are in the streets demanding impeachment. No matter how you feel the majority of us were in favor of going to war in Iraq. Bush had a lot to do with convincing us with that M.O. What I've seen out of McCain is if you don't like his POV than he gets frustrated and starts ignoring facts and goes by his logic. I've seen that behavior from him with my own eyes. Obama's temperament is a lot better for analyzing an antagonistic POV and at least figuring out a way to better illustrate his POV using the others imput. One could ask what does that do in the White House? A lot. You have to be able to convince your cabinet, The House and us of what you're attempting to get done.
Et tu Bilas.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#58 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:07 pm

I like the post MF23, it seems original. This is a much more valid criticism of McCain then any Bush-clone, right wing extremist rhetoric.

closg00--I don't think the brother-in-law state trooper scandal has legs; the affair would probably be very damaging at this point.

To keep it balanced, apparently Biden has problems paying his bills:
*The author notes this has now been settled--not paid in full but settled after he circulated this:

I feel an obligation to honesty and truth to share with you some facts. My
Father and Mother instilled in me thevalues and morals of treating people
fairly and always being honest. If you purchase something, you pay for it.
If you borrow something, you give it back.

I have been "stiffed" three times in my 30 year professional career by
someone who I rendered services to, gave a finished product to, but who
refused to pay for those services even though they acknowledged the services
and products were correct, were what they asked for, and were never
challenged for not being correct. I am lucky in having only three, but
those three hurt badly.

Joe Biden was one of those people. I worked on his 1988 Presidential
campaign financial disclosure engagement. I busted it for him and got
everything right. He stiffed me for over $15,000 worth of work. He refused
to pay once he dropped out of the race. I did similar Capitol Hill campaign
financial disclosure work for Bob Dole, Pat Buchanan, and a Democratic
candidate for Ambassador to New Zealand. All of those folks paid even
though they lost the election or did not get the appointment. That type of
work is very demanding and very tedious because your efforts are scrutinized
by Congress. Biden did not care.

I am on the Board of Directors of a company that owns a majority position in
a private jet management company in Northern Virginia. They manage jets for
businesses and rich folks. They also charter planes to the public. This
past winter Fred Thompson chartered over $250,000 worth of air time. He
paid every penny.

Joe Biden, in his latest unsuccessful run for President, chartered over
$150,000 worth of air time. He PAID ZERO. He continues to refuse to pay
stating his race is over and he is out of money. He never once complained
about his flights. Joe Biden is a rich man. He could pay.
Joe Biden is a liar and a cheat. I know it first hand. Character is what
life is all about. Joe Biden is a man of bad character and sets a bad
example for America.

I feel compelled to share this dark side of a man who asks for your vote and
trust.
Best Regards,

Bruce D. Riddle, CPA, CFP
BDR Associates, LLC
2401 Research Boulevard, Suite 101
Rockville, MD 20850
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#59 » by fugop » Fri Sep 5, 2008 4:49 pm

not that this is an excuse, but:

Sen.Joe Biden(D-Del.)

Net worth: $100,000-$150,000

Details: Biden has spent virtually his whole life in public service and does not have much else aside from investments in a small array of mutual funds and cash accounts. He received a $112,000 advance from Random House for a book in 2005.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 05_pf.html

Joe Biden is not a rich man. Many of the people on this board are probably richer than him. He is by far the least wealthy Senator.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/CIDsumm ... &year=2006

That said, I have been stiffed by failed candidates before. It is completely intolerable, though surprisingly common.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#60 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:01 pm

W. Unseld wrote:
closg00--I don't think the brother-in-law state trooper scandal has legs; the affair would probably be very damaging at this point.


Update!
The story has legs and will be breaking wide-open in three weeks according to ABC news.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5734511&page=1

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