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Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable

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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#61 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 5, 2008 5:02 pm

nate33 wrote:Oh I see. Obama is qualified because he's a liberal. McCain is not qualified because he is (somewhat) conservative.


No Obama's qualified because he _inspires_ liberals, among (many) others. And inspires others to risk a change from policies that are failing. Sorry if that makes you nervous. I get it, I can understand the desire for caution, electing Obama would represent a significant paradigm shift, and big changes are always scary. I just don't see what's so reassuring about 4 years of McCain. It's tough to argue that the 'conservative' policies of the past 8 years have left the country a better place. Even McCain is trying to run on the 'change' ticket, regardless of his track record. I'm interested, what's the primary fear in an Obama election?
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#62 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 6:35 pm

closg00--I couldn't get the link to open, if this is the Trooper scandal I don't think it has legs b/c I don't think it will be all that compelling as a scandal. I still think an affair would be a major blow for her.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#63 » by yungal07 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:02 pm

W. Unseld wrote:closg00--I couldn't get the link to open, if this is the Trooper scandal I don't think it has legs b/c I don't think it will be all that compelling as a scandal. I still think an affair would be a major blow for her.


It opened for me, and IF the Democrats use this correctly, I think it would be a major blow. Bush has already had his issues with abuse of power, and if the Dems play it correctly they could create a pattern of abuse by Repubs in office.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#64 » by dobrojim » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:02 pm

nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:I wish both candidates would stop with the references to "clean coal",
like such a thing actually exists.

BTW - re the economy, according to an op ed piece in Friday's WashPost
by an economics scholar, in the past 40 years, net monthly job creation during
dem admins was ~2.5 million, during 'pub admins ~1.5 million. Stock market does
better during Dem admins too. I wonder if the public at large realizes this.

I'd be curious if that study accounts for the lag time between inauguration and policy implementation. Reagan and both Bush's took office during recessions that they could not possibly have stopped. There's also the "peace dividend" factor. Clinton benefited from a world of relative peace and prosperity thanks to the end of the Cold War and Bush 41's handling of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

Ultimately, there are too many mitigating factors for such analysis to be all that useful.


forty years of data not good enough for you

somehow I wonder how you'd feel if the data were reversed
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#65 » by yungal07 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:03 pm

Cramer wrote:
yungal07 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
And they have, only to be accused of sexism by the McCain camp :lol: .


Nope, the sexism charges related to how could she be VP when she had 5 kids to raise. A question that would never be asked of a man. When Biden lost his wife and infant child about 20 years ago no one suggested he should stay home and raise his other child.


I already posted the link proving my point, slim. Go back to page dos.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#66 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:23 pm

yungal07 wrote:
W. Unseld wrote:It opened for me, and IF the Democrats use this correctly, I think it would be a major blow. Bush has already had his issues with abuse of power, and if the Dems play it correctly they could create a pattern of abuse by Repubs in office.


I think the affair one stings b/c of the contrast w/the family picture they portrayed at the RNC. The trooper rumor just doesn't do it for me in terms of scandal value. Granted, that's if the rumors of him being an abusive alcoholic and tasering his own 10 year old son are true, if the only trouble was irreconcilible differences or an affair then it could have some legs. When I use the legs phrase, I'm not referring to validity so much as people caring about it, but I know the phrase has been used both ways.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#67 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:26 pm

W. Unseld wrote:closg00--I couldn't get the link to open, if this is the Trooper scandal I don't think it has legs b/c I don't think it will be all that compelling as a scandal. I still think an affair would be a major blow for her.

Nah, I doubt it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain
In April 1979,[57] McCain met Cindy Lou Hensley, a teacher from Phoenix, Arizona, whose father had founded a large beer distributorship.[62] They began dating, and he urged his wife Carol to grant him a divorce, which she did in February 1980, the uncontested divorce taking effect in April 1980.[21][57] The settlement included two houses, and financial support for her ongoing medical treatments due to her 1969 car accident; they would remain on good terms.[62] McCain and Hensley were married on May 17, 1980, with Senators William Cohen and Gary Hart attending as groomsmen.[62][20],


My point in posting this is the fact of the matter is McCain dumped the first wife after his affair and that's long forgotten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_McCain

John McCain would later say, "My marriage's collapse was attributable to my own selfishness and immaturity more than it was to Vietnam, and I cannot escape blame by pointing a finger at the war. The blame was entirely mine."]

.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#68 » by Chocolate City Jordanaire » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:32 pm

I've committed adultery (and I think I've paid big time on both occassions--God don't like ugly!) in the past but I ain't running for office. I make no claims of being fit to lead a country.

I don't want to judge McCain or Palin but I do wonder about his integrity.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#69 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:32 pm

W. Unseld wrote:closg00--I couldn't get the link to open, if this is the Trooper scandal I don't think it has legs b/c I don't think it will be all that compelling as a scandal. I still think an affair would be a major blow for her.


Just go to abcnews.com, it's there.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#70 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 7:52 pm

Got it and posted:
I think the affair one stings b/c of the contrast w/the family picture they portrayed at the RNC. The trooper rumor just doesn't do it for me in terms of scandal value. Granted, that's if the rumors of him being an abusive alcoholic and tasering his own 10 year old son are true, if the only trouble was irreconcilible differences or an affair then it could have some legs. When I use the legs phrase, I'm not referring to validity so much as people caring about it, but I know the phrase has been used both ways.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#71 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:15 pm

W. Unseld wrote:Got it and posted:
I think the affair one stings b/c of the contrast w/the family picture they portrayed at the RNC. The trooper rumor just doesn't do it for me in terms of scandal value. Granted, that's if the rumors of him being an abusive alcoholic and tasering his own 10 year old son are true, if the only trouble was irreconcilible differences or an affair then it could have some legs. When I use the legs phrase, I'm not referring to validity so much as people caring about it, but I know the phrase has been used both ways.


There is ALOT more dirt on Palin coming out, clearly she was not properly vetted. Now the campaign is trying to run out the clock using Republican stall and smear tactics....their specialty.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#72 » by pancakes3 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:26 pm

Can all parties involved in this discussion take a step back and look at the direction this thread went? I'll redirect you to my first comment on the thread asking if a true political discussion can exist while discussing the issues and not the candidates? Can a candidate come out and run on a platform of meaning or has the political process progressed that "Change" is an acceptable slogan instead of presenting policies that mean something? The Square Deal, New Deal, The New Frontier, The Great Society, etc all meant something with substance, unlike the nebulous "change" which both candidates have now adopted.

The bygone political platforms crystallized the aims of the administration and presented solutions to domestic sorespots in a way that was comprehensible to the common man. Of course it didn't detail the exact procedures the administration would undertake, but at least they made political promises with a road map other than "change" or "heal the economy". Surely we all are not so naive to think that Obama can waltz into office and the recession will ebb away like a tide. What's his plan? Can we vote less shallowly and look past the charisma, and dig deeper than the tabloid dirt and look at the issues? I know it's a trite expression, but I would rather a womanizing alcoholic be in office who has a clear, well thought out plan of action, than a chaste, devout boy scout (or girl scout) who is ambiguous and wishy-washy on his stances.

I meant to accredit W. Unseld earlier in this post, but my ranting got the better of me. I understand how political parties exist so we all know generally where we stand, but in today's politics where the candidates are groomed to not take a solid stance, the issues are more important than ever and we cannot be "cheerleaders" or even worse, gossip columnists. I'll reference "The View" where less than a week ago Shephard said that Palin was qualified to run the country because she's got 5 kids, and ran the PTA (no citation to actual PTA administration) and that any woman in America who can run 5 kids and the PTA is more than qualified to run the nation. As absurd and unfunny a statement as that was, it embodies the merit that the mudslinging of candidates have. none. no merit. F*ck the muck, we should be discussing the issues.

per example:
Obama proposes tax rebates for the middle class and a 50 billion dollar federal giveaway to save 1 million jobs from being cut in road repair, education, and other state gov. sectors. He also wants to eliminate income tax for senior citizens making less than 50k. That sounds like an awfully lot of money being spent with the federal income being slashed. That equates to deficit spending. Deficit spending is not necessarily a bad thing, but IMO needlessly going into debt like eliminating income tax for seniors is not a smart move.

Mccain offers an even bigger tax rebate for the middle class, 2700 vs 1000 per family, and like obama favors federal grants to green energy research. However, one thing that McCain addresses that Obama doesn't is to actively eliminate pork barreling in the senate by vetoing as many single-line riders that comes his way. I don't know how effective that will be, blocking necessary legislature because of cleverly jargon-hidden addendums, but it is good to see that pork is being addressed. I suppose this is the maverickness that we've been hearing so much about. However, pork exists because of the old-boy network in the intimate senate, and when a rider is attached to an urgent piece of legislation like it has with the legislature concerning terrorism, iraq, and other heavily time-sensitive congressional actions, the pork passes.

bottom line?
Obama: Heavy deficit spending that mean well and will likely preserve jobs (though possibly vestigial) and increase consumer confidence and spending
McCain: Deficit spending also, but not as radical as Obama's, to preserve jobs, and also willing to burn political bridges by fighting pork, at least theoretically.

Of course this can continue to discuss other aspects of the economic plans of both that I haven't gone into, and then foreign policy, etc.

Addendum W.Unseld @sskiss: Very interesting anecdote regarding Biden. Nobody went to collectors over this? I know that the repo market is in the toilet over the mortgage crises, but it hasn't collapsed. I got nailed by blockbuster for not returning L4YER C4KE and Biden gets off? What a world.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#73 » by W. Unseld » Fri Sep 5, 2008 8:28 pm

There is ALOT more dirt on Palin coming out, clearly she was not properly vetted. Now the campaign is trying to run out the clock using Republican stall and smear tactics....their specialty.


When was the last time anyone used the phrase "properly vetted" when referring to a VP before the past two weeks? Beware to guard your thoughts and make sure they are your own.

As for Palin specifically, I believe it, but she's already had one major false rumor reported about her which clearly wasn't properly vetted.

I see the same irrational hate-fest for Palin that I saw for Hillary. I don't think it's sexist per se (Hillary is the epitome of self-serving; Palin has a grating verse and abounding sarcasm) but the hate for each of these woman reached irrational levels before they were in the public eye for any lenth of time. People hated on Hillary early and hoped she would fail early and Palin seems to be getting the same treatment.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#74 » by closg00 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:00 pm

W. Unseld wrote:
There is ALOT more dirt on Palin coming out, clearly she was not properly vetted. Now the campaign is trying to run out the clock using Republican stall and smear tactics....their specialty.


When was the last time anyone used the phrase "properly vetted" when referring to a VP before the past two weeks? Beware to guard your thoughts and make sure they are your own.



Well, that's because the turnaround time was so brief between interview and job offer. Press reports indicate that McCain wanted either Tom Ridge, or Joe Lieberman, but that was nixed by the sheep that listen to right-wing talk radio. Had McCain any balls, he would have selected who HE wanted.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#75 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:08 pm

Hey if McCain gave Lieberman the nod I would have hated the helloutta him from a long way back. I'd have taken a long running start to punt that inflated sack of leather.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#76 » by BanndNDC » Fri Sep 5, 2008 10:24 pm

W. Unseld wrote:As for Palin specifically, I believe it, but she's already had one major false rumor reported about her...


for what it's worth alaskan republicans ive talked to still (as of last night) think the rumor is true.

personally im more concerned with the her complete and utter lack of interest in national and international affairs, the book burning (how dare she present herself as a naughty librarian and then try and ban books) and the poor judgment reflected in her child naming decisions.

I see the same irrational hate-fest for Palin that I saw for Hillary. ...

i disagree. i dont see hate for Palin i see shock and disbelief at the lack of seriousness McCain showed for the office by nominating someone patently unqualified for high national office during such a serious time. this shock and disbelief is manifested in some corners as derision. but that derision is a result of the office she was nominated for. had she merely been considered for a cabinet position (as long as it wasnt secstate or something like that) or was running for Congress there wouldnt be the same level of derision. part of this also has to do with the double standard used for dem candidates.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#77 » by penbeast0 » Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:01 pm

Oddly enough, I like both candidates this year based on what I perceive about their character. I say oddly because in the years since I started voting for president, this is close to the first time I can say the guys that came out of the primaries were the guys who I considered potentially presidential - - I was wrong about Reagan who I thought was a Yahoo but who made an effective principled President, but Carter, Dukakis, Clinton, George W. AND Gore, Kerrey . . . these guys were bozos and the ones that won made terrible presidents, particularly W who is the worst of the 20th century.

This time I went in and researched the candidates and came out thinking that McClain and Obama were the two guys I wanted running (and Ron Paul was the most intriguing but too extreme to win) whereas Hilary and Guiliani were dangerous Nixon wannabe paranoics and Romney was a blowdried weathervane. Obama seemed a genuine thinking man, though extremely inexperienced (Romney with good speeches but that is enough to move him up over the other major dems) while McCain seemed a guy with real principles (for a pol) whose main weakness was he is a contrarian and seemed to like talking trash just to get a rise out of people (fun in a friend, not something I think works for a President). Still, both seemed pretty good choices for their respective parties. Not as impressed with either VP candidate, Biden was a reliable attack dog in Congress (not a complement) and Palin not ready for prime time, but I could vote for either Presidential candidate without feeling bad about it in terms of the kind of character and leadership issues that swing voters like me tend to use.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#78 » by BanndNDC » Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:10 pm

pancakes3 wrote:...

i fully agree that all that stuff is hurting our country. unfortunately, this is what our politics have become and we take our cues from the politicians and media. the sad fact is that those that have specialized most in this type of discourse have been the most successful politically for the past decade. i will point out that only one of the two candidates has not gone down this route (and let's just say it's the man who doesn't have a problem saying McCain was tortured at the Hanoi hilton).

per example:
Obama proposes tax rebates for the middle class and a 50 billion dollar federal giveaway [also known as long term investment in our physical and intellectual infrastructure to save 1 million jobs from being cut in road repair, education, and other state gov. sectors. He also wants to eliminate income tax for senior citizens making less than 50k. That sounds like an awfully lot of money being spent with the federal income being slashed. That equates to deficit spending. Deficit spending is not necessarily a bad thing, but IMO needlessly going into debt like eliminating income tax for seniors is not a smart move.

he also proposes to pay for this spending through curtailing govt waste (rhetorical bs on par with mccains cutting pork since clinton cut most of the politically feasible lean off - only big source of savings now are sacred cow stuff like ag subsidies and DHS funding), tax loopholes (mccain says the same thing), ending the iraq imbroglio (iraq + afghanistan cost $200 billion per year) and windfall profits tax on oil companies (which palin used to suppoty). anticipated savings from these things (basically just iraq) could easily cover $50b.

his health care plan also has long term benefits (though not long term net cost savings since he doesnt tackle the systemic flaws)


Mccain offers an even bigger tax rebate for the middle class, 2700 vs 1000 per family i hadnt heard that. and it doesnt quite jibe with what you said above about obama's senior plan. but i guess it comes down to how the definitions are used and various cuts/increases calculated, and like obama favors federal grants to green energy research. However, one thing that McCain addresses that Obama doesn't is to actively eliminate pork barreling rhetorical bs on par with obama's cutting wastein the senate by vetoing as many single-line riders that comes his way. I don't know how effective that will be, blocking necessary legislature because of cleverly jargon-hidden addendums, but it is good to see that pork is being addressed. I suppose this is the maverickness that we've been hearing so much about. However, pork exists because of the old-boy network in the intimate senate, and when a rider is attached to an urgent piece of legislation like it has with the legislature concerning terrorism, iraq, and other heavily time-sensitive congressional actions, the pork passes.he also seems to be ok with pork when specific programs are discussed (and we know his VP nominee loves it). at best this will save a couple of million on stuff like

also proposes a health care plan worse then hillary's that will add long term costs by raising taxes significantly by making all employer based health plans taxable. this is perhaps the single worst issue for me with mccain. his plan will result in more taxes and more people getting a la carte health care at exorbitant prices. without addressing the cost issue associated with the market distortions of insurance/managed care this is disastrous.

he also proposes opening ANWR to mineral exploitation which will provide some increase in revenue.

but in short, he increases spending and reduces taxes. i am not aware of any non rhetorical (ie: cutting pork, cutting tax loopholes) reductions in spending being proposed and there are indications that he might spend even more on iraq then is currently spent. theoretically he could be able (poltically since he wouldnt be hit with the same accusations as dems would in his place) to reduce DHS spending (the source of most of our current govt waste) but i havent heard any indication of this (am i wrong?)


bottom line?
Obama: Heavy deficit spending that mean well and will likely preserve jobs (though possibly vestigial) and increase consumer confidence extremely important and spending
McCain: Deficit spending also, but not as radical as Obama's if one assumes that the cut in iraq spending does not occur, to preserve jobs, and also willing to burn political bridges by fighting pork, at least theoretically.


for disclosure purposes: im an independent that will be supporting Obama. i am traditionally republican leaning but the current incarnation of the republican party does not represent my values of fiscal conservatism, limited govt power, social libertarianism, restrained and internationalist foreign policy, competent management and government seriousness.

bottom line: i think we need institutional change and a return to core american values. obama represents that hope to me. he is not perfect, i was very angry about his stance on warrantless wiretapping but he is at least aspiring (through his policies) for a better future. mccain (as he has shown during his campaign for the job) has changed and now seems to represent piety to a political mindset that hasnt worked and has caused massive divisions in our body politic. the changes in McCain made me skeptical. but what really turned me off was that i couldnt believe that a man who was tortured and stood up against it now seems to no longer think he was tortured. the compromising on that issue of principle really was quite a big flaw for me. palin put it over the top.


Addendum W.Unseld @sskiss: Very interesting anecdote regarding Biden.

it is interesting and i wonder why the dude hid Carol Mosely-Braun's (corrupt, incompetent dictator coddler that she is) name. [cant think of too ulterior a motive just found it strange]
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#79 » by fugop » Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:31 pm

dobrojim wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:I wish both candidates would stop with the references to "clean coal",
like such a thing actually exists.

BTW - re the economy, according to an op ed piece in Friday's WashPost
by an economics scholar, in the past 40 years, net monthly job creation during
dem admins was ~2.5 million, during 'pub admins ~1.5 million. Stock market does
better during Dem admins too. I wonder if the public at large realizes this.

I'd be curious if that study accounts for the lag time between inauguration and policy implementation. Reagan and both Bush's took office during recessions that they could not possibly have stopped. There's also the "peace dividend" factor. Clinton benefited from a world of relative peace and prosperity thanks to the end of the Cold War and Bush 41's handling of Saddam's invasion of Kuwait.

Ultimately, there are too many mitigating factors for such analysis to be all that useful.


forty years of data not good enough for you

somehow I wonder how you'd feel if the data were reversed


This is Larry Bartels and his book, Unequal Democracy. He does account for the lag time between inauguration and policy implementation. Much of the macroeconomic slack from the peace dividend arose in the first Bush administration.
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Re: Black Hole....errr The Political Roundtable 

Post#80 » by doclinkin » Fri Sep 5, 2008 11:54 pm

I was a registered Independent since you get polled more often, but I switched over to have a say in what candidates were on the Democratic ticket. I saw Ralph Nader coming and knew that a vote for Mr seatblet was a pisspoor idea in the real world.

As for the rest: I don't care about the labels, Personally I like a politician that panders to me and my concerns. I don't own a corporation, have an IRA but not much else in the stock market. I'd like to be able to buy a house, I'd like for my wife to be able to start her little business. I have a hard time believing a rich guy understands my concerns. But my mom was a single mom, my schools were inner city schools, I got a crappy edumacation, I got free lunch, I benefited greatly from federal handouts and loans for college, I ate powdered milk and ate food paid for with government stamps when I was a kid. I trust the two politicians who have the least money of their own, the one guy in public service when he could have earned more I'm sure doing something else, the other who's young but so far has followed a similar path, raised on ideals similar to those I grew up with. Seems like they'd be better able to understand where I'm coming from.

I think it's crap that we're the only First World country that has no guaranteed health care until you're critical. Scares the helloutta me that one of my sons has no insurance because he's not living at home anymore and decided to work in a warehouse packing trucks instead of going to college. I've got health insurance and even they are threatening to charge me thousands of dollars for telling me my wife was covered for a procedure but not the prescribed medications that allowed the procedure to be possible.

I've seen Unions make things difficult to operate, I've also seen them save the jobs of honest hard working guys and ensure a basic cost of living increase guarantee for dozens of people in public service. I've seen hundreds of people who have no ability to advocate for themselves trying to tread water and dig their way out of situations where predatory companies and organizations with skilled lawyers took advantage of them. And they had nowhere to turn. I've seen government intercession make a positive difference, especially when pressured by Unions that helped elect them.

I've seen deregulation increase electricity costs up 70% for families struggling to make rent. I've had to pay that bill. I have friends who say their agency is no longer allowed to pursue any new cases against companies that are polluting their neighbors. I have friends who can't fish in those waters anymore.

As for W.Unseld's admonishment that suggests original thoughts are the only ones that matter, I call bullshxt on that. I'm pretty good at diggin' and finding data and asking interesting questions. But I happily cede the field to a few more highly trained, patient, or with more time on their hands to do the digging. And if they find a fact that rings true and I track it back to sources, and happen to agree, I have no problem repeating it as though it were my own. If you asked for footnotes, fine I understand, credit the sources.

But I don't live in Alaska. I wasn't at the church when she said God wanted that war in Iraq. I wasn't interviewing McCain when he forgot how many houses he owns. Still gave me a sick feeling inside wondering how my family could afford a house, just one pretty little one, given the proportion of our family budget that just goes to gas for the car and heating oil now, and expenses have started to nip into the savings after the wife lost her job.

I'm saying, most people agree we need government to safeguard our needs when you hear glass shatter at night and you reach for the phone. Most people think libraries and schools and student grants and loans are a good thing. Most people think clean air is probably a good idea. Paved roads. A safety net for old people who've worked their whole lives. Seems to me there are a few more things that the average guy can't do for himself, that it would be helpful to have a smart compassionate guy ensuring that some of the big picture things are taken care of while he's struggling to carry his own load. And it seems to me that the people-- no, the companies-- that have profited most by the american people can best afford to help pull the load.

Seems to me that Iron Rule of Oligarchy applies tenfold to corporations. Only one thing matters: profit. Capitalism works fine compared to say communism because it takes into account fundamental facts of human nature: greed, self-interest. Do I begrudge them their success? I don't. I love it. I benefit greatly from products and services delivered to me. But it seems to me these are the people who can best afford to help insure that the people who buy their products, who work to make and deliver them are, well, alive to buy them for instance. CEO's earn ungodly millions, the gap between what a CEO is paid and the workers for these companies has widened so far in the past few decades it's unconscionable. Maybe if that profit margin were slightly more sane we'd see that gap narrow a little. Fewer jobs get sent to asia perhaps with the proper tax controls-- though I dunno, the customer service peopl0e I've spoken to in India and the Phillipines seem friendly and nice and all, more polite than the 'Mericans.

Capitalism is the horse that pulls the plow, government is just the harness. Something like that. All I know is that life has gotten harder for the folks I know, working folk, while the largest companies report record profits, and a very few at the top of the ladder get exponentially richer and richer and lose touch entirely. Seems entirely fair that the government borrow the strength of the mighty to help those under their feet. The horse pulls the plow, to raise the grain the horse lives on.

--Tax relief for the middle class, first time home buyers.
--Better schools, better wages for better teachers.
--Incentives for the small business entrepreneur, since that's where the greatest job creation occurs and how people attain productive middle class status out of being working poor. Microloan programs and other small business incentives.
--Some program to allow preventive care, early care, so we're less vulnerable to any next-order epidemic. Some program to ensure that the most vulnerable are safe.
--Intelligent use and deployment of forces. And real diplomacy as a tool thereof. To bring pressure both public and private.

Just seems to me there a number of sane policies we could think carefully about and weight the costs and benefits of implementing. Seems to me we should have been able to use the Billions of dollars a month protecting Louisana and protecting that City from drowning. Or working for a better future, not satisfying the aims of empire as laid out by the would-be masterminds of American hegemony at the Project for a New American Century. I could have scripted a stronger defense for america's future than any of the Holy Roman Empire wetdreams of that legion of doom.

I'm as American as anybody else. The neo-cons have drowned the country I love and stripmined it for profit and I literally hate them for it. Seems to me we can't bear it much longer and shouldn't have to.

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