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Long Term Plan? (merged threads)

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WizarDynasty
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#201 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Dec 9, 2008 6:38 pm

BruceO wrote:You guys can criticize his idea but please please analyze what is being said. Theres a reason we are losing. The record speaks for itself. What is the difference in makeup between ourselves and championship teams? what is the difference in makeup between ourselves and upcoming teams? what is the difference in makeup between ourselves and playoff teams we might face? What are the differences in makeup between us the posters and the players?
Now the height, lateral speed, hops, strength, wing span are all advantages. It takes skill to utilize these advantages. Point Blank when I play against a player whose shorter or won't be able to block my shot I shoot over him. If he's too slow I go around him. If he has no cardio I run him around the court till tired. If he's weaker than I am I post him up. Or push him around and repeat it over and over again. Theres no reason he can stop me If i have the skill and the will. If you can't jump high enough or reach high enough to block me there is no stopping what I am trying to do if superior in a way.
We suck at D. Why is this? Whats being exploited? Is it our scheme thats bad? This question has to be asked. So lets look at personnel without any Homer vision and see how they've done on matchups.

Dwight Howard vs our centers.
Our young guys are not strong enough, they were abused over and over with Dwight using his strength over them. They are picking up fouls left and right that are ticky tacky and don't know how to challenge shots without fouling. This is part of the reason I wanted Eddie gone. Not because of the strength reason but because these young guys are not being taught anything inhouse. They have to go to special camps to learn big man skills. Why aren't they being taught. Why no big man coach like the ones invested in by Orlando and LA for their young big man. Those young guys are flourishing

PF:
How would we respond if faced with one of these PF's:
Garnett, Rasheed, Tim Duncan, Gasol, Bosh, Amare.
True those are the elite PF's but thats who we will face in the NBA finals. One of those guys will be there.
Garnett vs Jamison
Garnett has a height, reach, speed, size advantage. Jamison will lack the tools to stop him. You can't expect him to stop Garnett the same way you can't expect Songaila to stop a true center as shown in small ball.
The rest of those elite power forwards have more of the same advantages. It will be difficult for Jamison to make these guys contribute offensively less than they normally would. It's the reason they are elite. They have the tools and they are able to use them against Jamison.
These PF's also contribute to their team defenses giving much needed size down the middle. All these guys can defend C's and PF's incase of switches and have indeed played the C spot.

So when faced with these mismatches Haywood has to guard them. Who guards the paint if they space Haywood away from it? Whats Jamison doing on the C's of these respective teams?

If Jamison defends the PF then he will require help when posted up. Hence the double teams then the quick kick outs to open men and the three point barrages. So who will jamison defend if no the PF who creates a mismatch against him? IF our C defends him then who defends the C?

This is why I feel we are kidding ourselves with him at that position. Although jamison has been a good enough player to contribute in rebounds and scoring. But those mismatches can't be helped. Why develop a complicated scheme to make up for it when we can get personnel that help.
This is why I wanted Gasol when there were rumors of his impending move. I thought give them Jamison please. He is expiring. Maybe he can come back after expiring. But this didn't matter.

SF:
Hedo vs Caron with Pietrus at SG
Lebron vs Caron with Pavlovic and Delonte West at SG
Pierce Vs caron with Ray Allen at Sg
Tayshawn vs Caron with Hamilton at SG
Marion vs Caron with Wade at SG

The common thing that these guys have is they are all longer than Caron. Go back to Wizardynasty and ask yourself if the observations about who wins defensively and offensively is consistent with the history of their matchups.
Caron might be able to defend Hedo. But theres times he cannot due to Hedos height. Remeber the game last year Hedo abused us and no one was a good matchup for him. Deshawn is too short, caron as well. Jamison is his size but too slow. Only one who stopped him was Dmac. Who incidentally is the only one who could stop Stephen jackson as well. Good three point shooting SF's have a field day against Caron. Look what Q rich did.
I've said Caron cant defend Lebron. we had to get Ruffin to defend him that one playoff and dude walked right to the basket and beat us. We now get Deshawn to defend him. Put yourself in Lebrons place. You are facing Wizards and they put a defender whos 3 inches shorter, 40 pounds lighter and not as strong as you are. How can he stop you from scoring, rebounding or passing? Also you can rest defensively cause this guys a jump shooter whos drives to rim are ugly. Don't even know why they foul someone who will miss at the rim. Then all the teams are doing is getting another player to defend Caron. Orlando is getting Pietrus, Cleveland got Pavlovic.
Keep going and looking at the other matchups as well. Whats happening is IF the SF is unable to defend Caron on these teams they have a SG who's able to. The SF then coasts defending Deshawn who's not a threat to score. So the only way to stop this from continually happening is either get a SG who will make the SF unable to defend him. Or get a larger SF so the SG is unable to defend him and the SF has to.

So this is the reason why I've been advocating getting a larger SF. Perhaps in tandem with Caron. It's also the reason I want Nick to develop. For carons sake.

The SG position I've touched on from the SF's persepctive. I think the SG has to be able to contribute towards the Sf's success. Deshawn cant create his own offense, can't penetrate effectively and is generally off the mark. Also the defensive switch situation happens. The better defensive guard would traditionally guard gil and put pressure on him. Rondo, Eric snow, Delonte, Larry Hughes etc. Meanwhile the weaker guard defender would defend Deshawn. Again no liability here because its not like he will go off. This cause gil to struggle. Get a SG who will put pressure on offenses if the PG guards him.

PG:
I like what gil brings to the table. He is able to do alot, penetrate, create own offense, shoot with range, pass. Block shots and excite franchise. His weaknesses are his ability to prevent being beat off the dribble. Also to find a way to help team when he's streaky. He's the only PG on roster thats able to do that. The rest are too small, too old or not skilled enough. Also all bad defenders

So these are fundamental changes that need to change to our personnel. It's something that coaching won't take away. It's why we are 2-11. Moves have to be made. Continuity won't help us solve this unless the young guys come in to plug these holes. It's why the young guys are doing better than vets.

So on roster unneeded pieces are AD, Juan, Dee, Deshawn, Etan, and perhaps to a lesser scale Songaila, Dominic and Pech.
Better replacements I'd target would be off the top of my head who are also young and are moveable pieces are:
1)Jarret jack once his trade restriction is over. Is good defensively. Stopped Gil the night he said he'd drop 50 to 4 points. Is cheaper and better than AD.
2)Travis Outlaw. getting him will enable us to play Caron at the 2 at times. He's clutch and very good sixth man.I've liked him, Marvin Williams, Granger, Thad Young and Al Thornton.
He might be available immediately. Wiretap mentions his being dangled for Mike conley. But what will memphis do with him considering they have Rudy Gay? And what will we do with Dominic?
I was fidgeting with the trade machine and offered

portland: incoming players Mike Conley, Dominic Mcguire (young point guard, Good defensive SF)
outgoing : Travis outlaw

Washington: Incoming players travis outlaw, marko jaric, Darko Milicic
outgoing: Etan Thomas, DeShawn Stevenson, Dominic McGuire, Antonio Daniels

Memphis: incoming players, Etan Thomas, Antonio Daniels, Deshawn Stevenson.
Outgoing Players: Mike Conley, Marko Jaric, Darko Milicic.

1.Portland gets the point guard they want, and get a replacement for Outlaws role
2.Washington gets outlaw, a big PG/SG/SF in jaric who isn't part of Memphis plans or rotation and Darko who has tools not to be victimized in the post plus youth. And is good replacement for Etan. Good backup for either the PF or C spot.
3. Memphis gets three vets of questionable ability who have been starters for a second year player in a pg rotation thats deep, a n underused player in Jaric who is at the end of the bench and Darko isn't at his full potential.

IF (a) this trade gets done and (b) we lose enough to get lucky and get Blake Griffin our lineup would be this next year
Haywood, McGee, Milicic, Pecherov
Jamison,Blake Griffin, Blatche, Songaila
Caron, Travis outlaw
Nick Young (perhaps caron)
Gilbert, Marko Jaric (preferably Jarret jack)

McGee and blatche get more time to develop and chances to play to their strengths.
The thing that bothers me still Is i can't speak for Markos potential performance. If he does well he could spell at the 1 through the three. Defensively I also question his ability. I'd rather find a way to acquire jarret jack. Also other potential under performers can be Milicic, Pecherov, Blatche, Travis outlaw and songaila. They've all shown enough to be considered good. There will be depth but will there be impact.
travis outlaw would have to take pressure off caron both as a backup and in tandem. Options will have to be explored here to allow Caron and Gilbert to breath. Ths will fall in the responsibilities of their backups. A worthy defender for Small forwards would have to be acquired or developed. My prototype is Battier.
The good news is we have young developing players in McGee, Milicic, Pecherov, Blake Griffin, Blatche, Outlaw, Nick young, Jarret jack. And solid players Jamison, Haywood, Caron and Gilbert. We would be competitive now and in the future. We'd be more fundamentally built and all the players would be young and on a cheap contract. I prefer young players, they are cheaper, improve faster and easily moveable. They also develop more on job experience if acquired early

It's just my two cents. Please look at our players position by position as they are currently made up
and imagine you got one of the championship caliber teams and were coaching against us. Or were a player with measurable tools thats better than our current players. Can you beat us?
Currently the odds say 11 times out of 13 even an ordinary team would beat us.

This is a hall of fame post!
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#202 » by pancakes3 » Tue Dec 9, 2008 6:59 pm

nice site, but it's pure stat manipulation, which has its pros and cons. pros- stats are non biased... con- it ranks jamison as a "good defender" based on steals/to.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#203 » by pancakes3 » Tue Dec 9, 2008 7:44 pm

So to summarize...
C - we're undersized
PF - we're undersized
SF - we're undersized
SG - we're untalented
PG - we're not deep enough.

And to retort...
C - You don't mention haywood and focusing on our "young bigs" who while skinny, are legit 7 footers.

PF - Jamison won't be able to bang down low with a lot of guys so he doesn't. He runs pick and pops, not pick and rolls. Like you said about your own pick-up games, he's playing to his strengths. If there's no true C, he slashes and tosses up one of his patented flip shots, and if there is a shotblocking presence he pops out to nail the 18 footer. He can't shut any of those elite PF's down, but he can certainly do some damage himself. I'm not saying that Jamison is a fantastic PF, but given the shortcomings in his game, he's still pretty good.

SF - Butler is also a good basketball talent who's putting up max money numbers at mid-level prices. Butler and Lewis have comparable stats except CB is getting paid 6 million less a year to do it. Also, the rest of the elite SF you named - Hedo, Lebron, Marion, Pierce, Prince - not only can Caron keep up offensively with all of them (except lebron), he's making less than all of them. So again, superstar production at journeyman prices. Also, out of those 5, only Lebron and Pierce have the capability of taking a game over. Hedo, Marion, and even Prince can catch fire, but they're unable to sustain 35ppg+ for an entire series. Butler can.

SG - We have a legitimate hole at SG and i don't think anyone disputes it. Nick Young is a good prospect but with the surplus of slashers on this team, his mediocre shooting will be magnified.

PG - Again, back up PG is a weakness of ours and it's no secret because our backup PG is playing starting PG right now in Arenas's absences.

This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#204 » by nate33 » Tue Dec 9, 2008 8:04 pm

pancakes3 wrote:
This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?

pancakes3, clearly you don't get it.

If we trade Butler and his $10M/year contract for Jeffries and his $6M/year contract, we will improve our perimeter shot blocking by a total of 0.39 blocks per 48 minutes. As you can plainly see, that will make us championship contenders while also saving us $4M/year.

Nothing else matters. Blocks/48 minutes is DaVinci code for victory!
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#205 » by WizarDynasty » Tue Dec 9, 2008 9:24 pm

This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?

I don't care how much money we are paying caron butler. All that matters is what he produces on the court in order to help us win at the s/f spot. If caron can't outperform another playoff s/f on offense, he has to outperform then on defense. If caron can't do neither, then he needs to go because he is not helping us "win the game". That's all that matters. Bring in a player at the s/f position that helps you win the game. If your man is scoring more points that you are..and he plays better defense than you do, its time for you to go or come off the bench. this is what is happening int he matchup with paul pierce against caron...and kevin garnett against jamison and stevenson versus ray allen. If we can't find offensive players to out perform kevin, paul, and lebron...we need all star defensive players who can match Paul pierce's allstar offensive production with allstar defensive production. WE need someone who can negate paul pierce great offense with great defense. Again Caron can't outscore paul pierce...caron cant' outscore lebron...can caron play better defense than paul pierce or lebron. that's caron's only way of making up for his lack of "production in a seven game series.". If caron cant' make up for being outscored by lebron, then he has to win the matchup on hte defensive side. CAron has failed and he isn't getting better. Hopefully this clears things up.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#206 » by crackhed » Tue Dec 9, 2008 9:37 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?

I don't care how much money we are paying caron butler. All that matters is what he produces on the court in order to help us win at the s/f spot. If caron can't outperform another playoff s/f on offense, he has to outperform then on defense. If caron can't do neither, then he needs to go because he is not helping us "win the game". That's all that matters. Bring in a player at the s/f position that helps you win the game. If your man is scoring more points that you are..and he plays better defense than you do, its time for you to go or come off the bench. this is what is happening int he matchup with paul pierce against caron...and kevin garnett against jamison and stevenson versus ray allen. If we can't find offensive players to out perform kevin, paul, and lebron...we need all star defensive players who can match Paul pierce's allstar offensive production with allstar defensive production. WE need someone who can negate paul pierce great offense with great defense. Again Caron can't outscore paul pierce...caron cant' outscore lebron...can caron play better defense than paul pierce or lebron. that's caron's only way of making up for his lack of "production in a seven game series.". If caron cant' make up for being outscored by lebron, then he has to win the matchup on hte defensive side. CAron has failed and he isn't getting better. Hopefully this clears things up.

here is another list that you should take a look at.
caron butler isnt the problem with the wizards dog.
edit: also btw, my recollection's a little sketchy but i believe that caron has outplayed paul pierce of late when both teams have met.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#207 » by Wizards2Lottery » Tue Dec 9, 2008 11:48 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?

I don't care how much money we are paying caron butler. All that matters is what he produces on the court in order to help us win at the s/f spot. If caron can't outperform another playoff s/f on offense, he has to outperform then on defense. If caron can't do neither, then he needs to go because he is not helping us "win the game". That's all that matters. Bring in a player at the s/f position that helps you win the game. If your man is scoring more points that you are..and he plays better defense than you do, its time for you to go or come off the bench. this is what is happening int he matchup with paul pierce against caron...and kevin garnett against jamison and stevenson versus ray allen. If we can't find offensive players to out perform kevin, paul, and lebron...we need all star defensive players who can match Paul pierce's allstar offensive production with allstar defensive production. WE need someone who can negate paul pierce great offense with great defense. Again Caron can't outscore paul pierce...caron cant' outscore lebron...can caron play better defense than paul pierce or lebron. that's caron's only way of making up for his lack of "production in a seven game series.". If caron cant' make up for being outscored by lebron, then he has to win the matchup on hte defensive side. CAron has failed and he isn't getting better. Hopefully this clears things up.


Ok genius why don't you tell me who we can trade Butler for that will be able to outperform Paul Pierce and LeBron.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#208 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:19 am

are you asking me what defensive players we could have gotten that would have outperformed paul and lebron on the defensive end? are you asking me what player we could have gotten than is twice as good as lebron or paul on the defensive end that we could have gotten through teh draft or trading a draft pick in the past hmm...let me see?
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#209 » by WizarDynasty » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:25 am

crackhed wrote:
WizarDynasty wrote:
This brings me to sum it all up in one question - What's your point Bruce O, and WD? I don't understand why you're nitpicking our players' shortcomings.There are flaws in a lot of players' games and for the most part, it's pretty obvious. However, why continuously harp on the negatives? Jamison's size, Caron's speed, why? Is it to prove that they're not superstars? Of course they're not superstars. No one claimed they're superstars. Is it so that we have a "fundamental change" in our roster? If you trade our 6 million/year SF you're going to get a 6 million/year Sf in return and i would love for you to find a $6 Million Sf that can do what Caron does. If you package Caron with Etan, you'll get a $12million Sf that will give you the same production that Caron offers. If you want to trade Jamison for $16 million worth of talent, i don't think there's anyone on this board that would be against that. So really, why the negativity?

I don't care how much money we are paying caron butler. All that matters is what he produces on the court in order to help us win at the s/f spot. If caron can't outperform another playoff s/f on offense, he has to outperform then on defense. If caron can't do neither, then he needs to go because he is not helping us "win the game". That's all that matters. Bring in a player at the s/f position that helps you win the game. If your man is scoring more points that you are..and he plays better defense than you do, its time for you to go or come off the bench. this is what is happening int he matchup with paul pierce against caron...and kevin garnett against jamison and stevenson versus ray allen. If we can't find offensive players to out perform kevin, paul, and lebron...we need all star defensive players who can match Paul pierce's allstar offensive production with allstar defensive production. WE need someone who can negate paul pierce great offense with great defense. Again Caron can't outscore paul pierce...caron cant' outscore lebron...can caron play better defense than paul pierce or lebron. that's caron's only way of making up for his lack of "production in a seven game series.". If caron cant' make up for being outscored by lebron, then he has to win the matchup on hte defensive side. CAron has failed and he isn't getting better. Hopefully this clears things up.

here is another list that you should take a look at.
caron butler isnt the problem with the wizards dog.
edit: also btw, my recollection's a little sketchy but i believe that caron has outplayed paul pierce of late when both teams have met.

and your source describes caron as a "teriffic defender"...apparently he doesn't watch caron get blown by his man every play and can't block shots like most of the otehr small forward defenders. I wouldn't put to much trust in your source that thinks caron is better than danny granger..better than tayshaun prince defensively. Whatever floats your boat. Caron isn't stopping anyone on the defensive end..plain and simple. He plays like a powerforward out on the perimeter when defending one on one. horrible.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#210 » by yungal07 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 1:42 am

nate33 wrote:
If we trade Butler and his $10M/year contract for Jeffries and his $6M/year contract, we will improve our perimeter shot blocking by a total of 0.39 blocks per 48 minutes. As you can plainly see, that will make us championship contenders while also saving us $4M/year.

Nothing else matters. Blocks/48 minutes is DaVinci code for victory!

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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#211 » by pancakes3 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:22 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:are you asking me what defensive players we could have gotten that would have outperformed paul and lebron on the defensive end? are you asking me what player we could have gotten than is twice as good as lebron or paul on the defensive end that we could have gotten through teh draft or trading a draft pick in the past hmm...let me see?


Well, since it seems that you're suggesting that we sacrifice offense for defense, we're asking that you provide such a player in the form of a trade. Without providing such a player, it just looks like you're "shxtting" on caron for no apparent reason. If you can provide a player that can we get currently for caron butler and jamison whose defense will slow LBJ down enough that it would make up for his offensive deficiency, then i'm sure people will be less antagonistic. But, if you can't provide such a player, then i'm telling you that you're drawing such ire because as longwinded and as many numbers you toss into your posts (like the absurd blocks/48 analogy) just makes it sound like childish bitching.

A crude example of defense NOT outperforming offense, since BR doesn't post PER numbers:
JJ in 13 career games as a Wizard has topped double digit scoring once, and has never topped double digit rebounds. JJ generated 11 total steals+blocks - 0.846/game
Butler in 9 career games has been in double digit scoring all 9 times, and has double digit rebounds in 2 of them. Caron generated 20 total steals+blocks - 2.22/game

So JJ doesn't score as much as Butler, and doesn't go for blocks/steals but doesn't box out and rebound well despite having a superior reach. That would make JJ less desirable as a replacement. If you look at JJ's PER which is as good as a blend of offensive/defensive skill as we have so far, and then match it up to LBJ's, the net difference is that LBJ will have more of an impact on winning than if you match up CB's PER.

http://www.82games.com/0809/BYPOSIT.HTM
for your perusing - we have one of the best sf/pf combos in the game right now in terms of net PER, which means that though our defense is offensive, our offense makes up for it enough that we're doing pretty well. You can argue that the stats are inflated because of weaker PFs that we're not meeting in the playoffs but again, show me how we can replace our existing REALLY good players with better ones. please.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#212 » by LyricalRico » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:53 pm

I posted this in the trade thread but maybe it fits better here:

One thing that I think we can learn from the trade that just went down is this: There are deals out there to be made, but fans may not like what their GMs have to do to get the deals done. I don't think we can count on some of the sweetheart trades we've been proposing (Etan and a second for Malik Rose, for example). If this team is going to acquire more pieces, we're going to have to do one of the following:

- take back salary
- take back unwanted players
- both

I don't think that there's much to be had out there in the realm of expiring contracts (unless you're shopping somebody like Gasol). If Grunfeld is going to improve this team, it's probably not going to be with moves that are super cap-friendly or that don't involve us taking back somebody else's dead weight. I think the model for us will be what the Cavs have been doing for the last few years - cycle through enough spare parts until you find the right combination. I really think that's what we're going to have to do.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#213 » by Rafael122 » Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:09 pm

It also looks like he's trying to find players to fill our bench spots that come on the cheap. Young, McGuire, McGee, OPEC, and Critter are in their rookie contracts.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#214 » by doclinkin » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:56 pm

The deal is we're in a rebuilding year. Anytime you fire your coach you're in a re-building year, most likely. Here we dropped a veteran player to get younger, bigger, more athletic. We lost experience and savvy, traded him to a contender where his experience sees more value in limited minutes and we took a flyer on a young guy with a ton of promise. A healthier guy, one hopes, knock wood.

We have young players developing in every position on the court now. That's not a recipe for immediate wins, but the team can grow together, moulded into the shape desired by whatever the incoming coach envisions. Plus we get a high draft pick.

I expect the loss of EJ stung AD pretty well. We may see more pep in his step in NO since he's not in mourning for the loss. He'll have more energy for the long haul anyway since he'll see fewer minutes than he played last year by a long shot. He's a good fit for them.

Here? I said in other threads, Critter adds a big 2nd ball handler who can attack the lane. Young and uptempo. He made Thaddeus Young look pretty in GTech. I suspect JvC will look alright finding JVMcG for the oop as well. And as for his outside shot, Dr Hoops can work with him.

But yeah, if you didn't know it before, we're rebuilding, adding talent, hoping to hit a good chemistry mesh. This is no final piece towards a championship, just pooling talent on the cheap when it's available. A good guard, 1st rounder from a year when the talent was deep as it's ever been. A talented guy who hasn't caught playtime since he's had more accomplished guys ahead of him. Needs time, but hey, that's what rebuilding is all about.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#215 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 15, 2008 2:54 pm

I originally was going to post this in the Open Letter thread but I thought it was more appropriate here:


It's been so long since Arenas has played, I think many have forgotten how good he can be. Anyone who wants him gone is a fool (unless, of course, Arenas can't regain his old form).

I also think it's a bad idea to move him to SG. Arenas just isn't as effective as an off-the-ball scorer. He's not the kind of guy who comes around picks a la Rip Hamilton. He needs the ball in isolation so he can kill you with a three or take it to the rack. He puts so much pressure on the defense with his ridiculous range and his willingness to shoot from anywhere.

That said, there is something to the argument that when Arenas plays, the rest of the team has a tendency to stand around a bit too much on offense. Arenas' first instinct isn't to set others up for easy buckets. That makes Arenas a difficult guy to build around - difficult, but not impossible. The more I think about it, the more I think that this team MUST invest major resources into finding that ideal backcourt mate for Arenas. We need a Manu Ginobili to San Antonio's Tony Parker. We need an Eric Snow to Philly's Allen Iverson. We need a Joe Dumars to Detroit's Isiah Thomas.

It's possible to find a big guard who can pass. They're rare but they're out there. Larry Hughes was actually a good fit except for the constant injuries. I think we can all agree that Deshawn Stevenson isn't that guy. Kirk HInrich is a possibility but he's a little small. Manu is too old (and unavailable, anyhow). Brandan Roy is too good (and thus, unavailable).

So who is left? I can think of 1 guy who would be a perfect fit, but he may be too expensive. That's Joe Johnson. The problem with getting him is that our best trade assets: Butler and Jamison, play positions where Atlanta is already stocked.

Iguodala is a possibility but he's really more of a SF than a guard.

Hinrich is available and may be the best fit for the price.

Can Rudy Fernandez fill the role? How are his handles? Is he really a Manu clone or is he more like a Reggie Miller? How is his defense?

Jamal Crawford can handle and pass, but he's a gunner who shoots inefficiently. Can he be reigned in? Can he handle defensive duties as a full time SG?

Mike Miller is currently averaging 5.4 assists per 40 minutes in Minnesota. They're obviously building toward the future so he shouldn't cost too much.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#216 » by LyricalRico » Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:07 pm

^ Great post, nate. I really like Joe Johnson but I think he's too much of a scorer to be paired with Gil. You're right about Iggy being a forward and about Hinrich being too small (although he'd be a fine consolation prize if that was the best we could do). Crawford strikes me as more of a third guard type and I don't think Fernandez will make his bones as a setup man. Also, Fernandez' tiny salary makes a trade tricky.

Now that I think about it, Mike Miller might have the best combination of fit, availability, and cost to acquire. I just hope we dump Stevenson as part of the deal because I couldn't bear Nick Young being third string.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#217 » by Silvie Lysandra » Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:08 pm

I'd actually prefer Iggy, just because even though he IS more of a 3, he'd be our best perimeter defender immediately, can run with us, and he'd be an enormous matchup problem at the 2. It also gives us rotational flexibility in that we could run Iggy/Young/Arenas when Butler sits or run big with something like DMac/Butler/Iggy.

He's not a perfect fit offensively (I think Miller or Hinrich would be closer to that) but I'll take that for a better defensive fit.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#218 » by Pradamaster » Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:29 pm

nate33 wrote:I originally was going to post this in the Open Letter thread but I thought it was more appropriate here:


It's been so long since Arenas has played, I think many have forgotten how good he can be. Anyone who wants him gone is a fool (unless, of course, Arenas can't regain his old form).

I also think it's a bad idea to move him to SG. Arenas just isn't as effective as an off-the-ball scorer. He's not the kind of guy who comes around picks a la Rip Hamilton. He needs the ball in isolation so he can kill you with a three or take it to the rack. He puts so much pressure on the defense with his ridiculous range and his willingness to shoot from anywhere.

That said, there is something to the argument that when Arenas plays, the rest of the team has a tendency to stand around a bit too much on offense. Arenas' first instinct isn't to set others up for easy buckets. That makes Arenas a difficult guy to build around - difficult, but not impossible. The more I think about it, the more I think that this team MUST invest major resources into finding that ideal backcourt mate for Arenas. We need a Manu Ginobili to San Antonio's Tony Parker. We need an Eric Snow to Philly's Allen Iverson. We need a Joe Dumars to Detroit's Isiah Thomas.

It's possible to find a big guard who can pass. They're rare but they're out there. Larry Hughes was actually a good fit except for the constant injuries. I think we can all agree that Deshawn Stevenson isn't that guy. Kirk HInrich is a possibility but he's a little small. Manu is too old (and unavailable, anyhow). Brandan Roy is too good (and thus, unavailable).

So who is left? I can think of 1 guy who would be a perfect fit, but he may be too expensive. That's Joe Johnson. The problem with getting him is that our best trade assets: Butler and Jamison, play positions where Atlanta is already stocked.

Iguodala is a possibility but he's really more of a SF than a guard.

Hinrich is available and may be the best fit for the price.

Can Rudy Fernandez fill the role? How are his handles? Is he really a Manu clone or is he more like a Reggie Miller? How is his defense?

Jamal Crawford can handle and pass, but he's a gunner who shoots inefficiently. Can he be reigned in? Can he handle defensive duties as a full time SG?

Mike Miller is currently averaging 5.4 assists per 40 minutes in Minnesota. They're obviously building toward the future so he shouldn't cost too much.


Nate, it's posts like these that keep me lurking here even though I have plenty of lively discussion with smart posters on my own site. Bravo, and I couldn't agree more.

The funny thing is that DeShawn strikes me as the poor man's version of all of these types of players. He's improved his handles and his passing this year, even as his shot has virtually disappeared. If he were to transition into a bench role, he might actually fit, provided he finds his shot again.

As far as guys out there, it's too bad Atlanta's actually proven to be a good team even without Childress. I figured they'd take a fall and want to trade JJ and rebuilt around Smith and Horford. Alas, it looks like that ship has sailed.

I like all your options. In retrospect, I wish we'd have done more to get someone like Delonte West in years past, but he's stuck in Cleveland now. If he wasn't hurt, Mike Dunleavy may also work, though he sucks on defense. Sacramento may be willing to part with John Salmons for very little since they're going to a youth movement.

Otherwise, I got nothing. We may need to dig deeper and look for a young guy with potential like Crittenton. There's also someone like Thabo Sefolosha, though he's really been buried in Chicago.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#219 » by Kanyewest » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:42 pm

Offense was never the problem with Gilbert Arenas. With a healthy Gilbert Arenas, several kinds of guards can capitalize on Arenas's strengths. A guard who can drive and penetrate can kick out to the open man would help Arenas get open looks at the basket. Arenas can also set up guys on the outside with his own slashing ability.

I disagree that Arenas cannot play shooting guard because he's not a catch and shoot player. A large portion of shooting guards are not of that skill set but are very successful by creating a majority of their shots through isolation plays; (Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Joe Johnson). Still, I would prefer Arenas to manage the point guard spot.

An ideal candidate for a shooting guard would be a good defensive player, someone who can knock down shots at an high rate, and a player who can defer to Arenas. Some guys for this role would Iguodala or Anthony Parker. Others who are a bit too old are but would be perfect are Raja Bell and Bruce Bowen. I also think you could pair Arenas with guy like Hinrich and Foye and as Nate mentioned, lack of size would be a concern.

Of course, if someone becomes undervalued like Kevin Martin, Michael Redd, or Michael Redd you would have to consider making a deal. More than likely, the Wizards will wait and see what they have. Perhaps DeShawn Steenson can play like he did in 2006-07 when Arenas was healthy. Or maybe a guy like Nick Young gets the playing time and shows that he can be consistent.
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Re: Long Term Plan? 

Post#220 » by doclinkin » Mon Dec 15, 2008 6:46 pm

Mikeprada mentions Josh Childress, hey I'd take him here if he decides he'd rather come back to the NBA rather than live in Europe and be treated like a king. Here they throw fewer objects on court from the stands than in Greece anyway-- Philadelphia a notable exception. He'd play a fine role as a more offensive version of Jared Jeffries in that mega 2-guard spot. Still needs to Hopla-cize his jumper, but eh, still. Mebbe he's tired of souvlaki and wants to come on home. IIRC he's got an out-clause if any NBA squad antes up. But, right, we'd need to clear cap space. Just saying. I ain't forgotten about JChill.

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