Discussing Potential Coaches Thread

[Rafael122]

Just winning a game in the second round is already an improvement.

[Dat2U]

I'm with miller & ji in the belief that talent ultimately determines championships-- except in a down year where the top talents are injured or whatever. Where all else is equal, Coaching can help put you over the top, but if you lack the top tier talent you're just battling for 'pretty good' status no matter what.

In Flip I don't see any major upgrade over EJ...

Not enthused myself. But don't hate it. I do like the addition of Sam Cassell, ... Sam is just the right kind of a*hole this team needs and he balances Flip's personality nicely, teaching Gil how to run the team, teaching the youngsters the veteran dirty tricks. He's such a colorful character and personality that teams can't help but take on some of his flavor and grit. You saw it the instant he took the court as a young puppy on Houston. Hakeem may have been the superstar, but Sam was hitting the clutch shots late-game. An instant veteran.

...

So, if we're landing Flip that's alright, but I'd be excited to have Cassell on the bench. Leastways you'll never have a boring post-game breakdown, and you'll always have a go-to guy for soundbites and quotes.

I agree with evetrything above. Flip is an uninspiring choice to me. He's more of the same. A slight improvement on EJ, but still an offensive minded player's coach whose team's don't have great success on the defensive end. Cassell on the bench should be a nice asset however.

I guess it fits the type of team Ernie wants. An entertaining team with lots of offense, decent regular season record, a good locker room and a couple of playoff home games to keep the locals happy.

There's no championship aspirations anywhere to be found. It just looks like were shooting for 4th or 5th best in the East.

This is the type of hire that helps Ernie keep is job for the forseeable future but doesn't even get this franchise close to sniffing a championship.

I guess the gold standard for the Wizards in the future will be a 50 win season. That's our aspiration, that's what the organization is aiming for. We'll probably have confetti, lots of cake and free t-shirts for everybody if we can achieve that goal.

[fishercob]

Dat, I get what you and doc are saying. I don't quite buy your fatalistic approach to EG's true goals and aspirations, but we can just agree to disagree on that.

What I don't agree with is the notion that FLip's teams don't have great success on the defensive end. If his most recent five seasons, four of them had DRtg's in the top 7. You may or may not think he's responsible for that defensive success, but it's definitely success.

He's only been in the lower half of the league in DRtg once. It stands to reason that he's going to improve the D.

Where I agree most with you and Doc is that this hiring is consistent with Ernie's vision for how this team can win -- a better version of EJ if you will. If Flip's a better version of EJ, and we have a better roster going into next year, and reasonably full health, the Wiz are going to win a lot of games next year.

[MF23]

Yeah Dat that is pretty good post on Flip Saunders hire.

He had the best resume of the available coaches. Can't knock the hire but the Wizards have seem to become predictable.

[tkunit]

I wanted young and hungry. While I can't disagree that Flip has a proven record for winning games, it is just not what I wanted. Where is the chance on the next good young or first time coach.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

doc and Dat, I feel you both on the hire. Uninspiring perhaps. Job security for EG. No great shakes beyond 50 wins and a playoff series win or finals appearance, because Flip won't improve the defense that much.

The one thing I believe can propel Flip to new heights is the addition of a superstar.

Give Flip Blake Griffin and this same group and I think the Wizards become a 60-win team, because this team's got more talent than any team he had in Minnesota. Much more.

The reasons Detroit couldn't get past Miami or Cleveland, in addition to not stopping Wade or James, is the Pistons didn't have go-to scorers themselves beyond Billups. Rip's not a guy to take over down the stretch. Rasheed didn't consistently score in the paint. Prince couldn't stop James or score when it counted. Billups couldn't try and deal with Wade and be Mr Big Shot.

That's not the case at all with the Wizards, who've got guys who can score; particularly if Gil returns to near his old form. Add Griffin to the mix and you've got easy put back dunks in the paint. Recall Leon Powe for the Celtics against the Lakers in the Finals. Well, Griffin's all that and better.

So, while Flip might not be too inspiring, I'm thnking Griffin would make everything better.

Other guys who would add to the offense could help Flip: Tyreke Evans, Stephen Curry, Tywon Lawson, Jack McClinton (round 2). I'm sure many others.

I'll give Flip a chance.

Now that the coaching's decided, I'm hoping for Griffin big time.

[GilArenas88]

I think Saunders is going to end up being a solid move by the Wizards Organization. Yeah there may be a few other coaches that would have been slightly better fits possibly, but nothing clear cut over Saunders. The only other coaches I may have rathered, and I emphasize may, would have been: Thibs, while a great defensive assistant, as someone else had mentioned is totally unproven as a head coach, assistant coaching and head coaching are different ball games. Avery Johnson while a good coach has shown to be a control freak, which could have turned ugly in the locker room.

All in all again I think its a good move and at the right time. It gives us flexibility come draft time, and will help us make roster decisions. I feel with Saunders here that some of the young talent, our scrub vets like Etan and James, and our pick if we don't get Griffin may be traded or traded down. With Saunders at the helm I think our ECF and Championship window is now, and for about 4-5 more years with our current roster. I say our biggest needs are a big man PF who'll bang, rebound, and be gritty, which could be solved by getting Griffin. We could use a 2/3 who could defend and shoot the trey, if McGuire could develop a corner trey that be amazing. We also a sharp shooter for situational use to spread the floor. With health, Griffin, and a commintment to defense I could possible see us winning 55 games next year, which would probably be good for the 2nd or 3rd seed.

[nate33]

In general, I'm agreeing with Doc and Dat in that Flip is a safe, uninspired choice. EG would rather have reasonable confidence that we can win 48-52 games, rather than gamble for 60 wins and risk another trip to the lottery if things don't pan out.

The one thing that intrigues me is Flip's strategy of employing zone defenses. A quality zone defense might be a way to hide some of our lousy one-on-one defenders while getting our best defenders involved in more of the defensive action. It could also take advantage of the ball-hawking skills of Arenas and Butler in the weakside passing lanes. Ultimately, it may be the best way to maximize our current roster defensively.

That said, I fear that the reason Flip does better in the regular season than in the post season is becuse he employs an unconventional defensive scheme. Flip uses smoke and mirrors to fool opposing teams and he usually escapes with a victory before other teams figure his defensive strategies out. In the playoffs, teams have time to adjust. (The same argument applies to EJ. The Wizards have always fared better against the Western Conference because they're not used to EJ's schemes. The Eastern Conference has figured us out.)

[likwitdesi]

I think Saunders is going to end up being a solid move by the Wizards Organization. Yeah there may be a few other coaches that would have been slightly better fits possibly, but nothing clear cut over Saunders. The only other coaches I may have rathered, and I emphasize may, would have been: Thibs, while a great defensive assistant, as someone else had mentioned is totally unproven as a head coach, assistant coaching and head coaching are different ball games. Avery Johnson while a good coach has shown to be a control freak, which could have turned ugly in the locker room.

All in all again I think its a good move and at the right time. It gives us flexibility come draft time, and will help us make roster decisions. I feel with Saunders here that some of the young talent, our scrub vets like Etan and James, and our pick if we don't get Griffin may be traded or traded down. With Saunders at the helm I think our ECF and Championship window is now, and for about 4-5 more years with our current roster. I say our biggest needs are a big man PF who'll bang, rebound, and be gritty, which could be solved by getting Griffin. We could use a 2/3 who could defend and shoot the trey, if McGuire could develop a corner trey that be amazing. We also a sharp shooter for situational use to spread the floor. With health, Griffin, and a commintment to defense I could possible see us winning 55 games next year, which would probably be good for the 2nd or 3rd seed.

Yeah you just about nailed it.

Beast PF -> If we don't get the #1 pick, if I am the Wiz, I would be willing to package our pick + McGee for Griffin

Multitooled SG -> I don't know why the coaching staff had McGuire work on his midrange game instead of a corner 3 last year. Hopefully, McGuire can get working on that corner trey.

Sharpshooter -> Cap'n Jack McClinton in the 2nd round

[likwitdesi]

I am also hoping that EG gives McGuire his extension before he blows up next season. I have a feeling that McGuire is going to be getting the same type of hype next season that Ariza is getting now. I would also say that a 3-year extension that pays Haywood 8 mil annually is fair for both sides. Yes, we have our luxury tax issues, but we have 12 mil coming off the books next year and another 7 mil coming off the books the year after that.

nate, I know that you are worried about our luxury tax issues but think about this. If this team is a contender, wouldn't revenues be a lot higher offsetting the extra cost associated with the luxury tax?

[Rafael122]

Christ, I can't believe you guys are complaining about winning 52 games. "Oh we won 52 games, woe is me." Chances are we are not going to win a championship in the near future regardless of who the coach is. Phil Jackson ain't walking through that door.

[LyricalRico]

Christ, I can't believe you guys are complaining about winning 52 games. "Oh we won 52 games, woe is me." Chances are we are not going to win a championship in the near future regardless of who the coach is. Phil Jackson ain't walking through that door.

THANK YOU!!!

That's exactly what I've been saying. Getting 50 wins and advancing to the second round would be a HUGE step forward for this team. Let's do that for 2-3 years in a row, then we can complain that Flip isn't taking us to the next level.

[nate33]

I am also hoping that EG gives McGuire his extension before he blows up next season. I have a feeling that McGuire is going to be getting the same type of hype next season that Ariza is getting now. I would also say that a 3-year extension that pays Haywood 8 mil annually is fair for both sides. Yes, we have our luxury tax issues, but we have 12 mil coming off the books next year and another 7 mil coming off the books the year after that.

nate, I know that you are worried about our luxury tax issues but think about this. If this team is a contender, wouldn't revenues be a lot higher offsetting the extra cost associated with the luxury tax?

It depends on how we go about it.

Let's say we make fishercob's Rudy Fernandez deal where we trade the #2 plus Stevenson and Songaila for Rudy and the #23. That would leave us with our current team, plus Rudy and the #23, minus Songaila, and with no luxtax issues this year or next year. In my opinion, that team wins 45-48 games and has a 50/50 shot at making it to the 2nd round. So figure 3-7 home playoff games in each of the next two seasons.

Let's say the alternative is to trade the #2 plus Etan, James and Blatche for Bosh. That team wins 54-58 games, definitely makes it to the 2nd round, and has a 50/50 shot at making the ECF. So figure 6-10 home playoff games in each of the next two seasons. But the Bosh team costs Abe an additional $18M next year and around $28M the following year.

Are 8-10 more wins per year and 3-4 more playoff games a year worth $23M a year? I doubt the extra wins cover the cost of the additional salary. Maybe Abe would do it just to win a title, but my guess is that it would turn out to be a bad business decision.

[likwitdesi]

I am also hoping that EG gives McGuire his extension before he blows up next season. I have a feeling that McGuire is going to be getting the same type of hype next season that Ariza is getting now. I would also say that a 3-year extension that pays Haywood 8 mil annually is fair for both sides. Yes, we have our luxury tax issues, but we have 12 mil coming off the books next year and another 7 mil coming off the books the year after that.

nate, I know that you are worried about our luxury tax issues but think about this. If this team is a contender, wouldn't revenues be a lot higher offsetting the extra cost associated with the luxury tax?

It depends on how we go about it.

Let's say we make fishercob's Rudy Fernandez deal where we trade the #2 plus Stevenson and Songaila for Rudy and the #23. That would leave us with our current team, plus Rudy and the #23, minus Songaila, and with no luxtax issues this year or next year. In my opinion, that team wins 45-48 games and has a 50/50 shot at making it to the 2nd round. So figure 3-7 home playoff games in each of the next two seasons.

Let's say the alternative is to trade the #2 plus Etan, James and Blatche for Bosh. That team wins 54-58 games, definitely makes it to the 2nd round, and has a 50/50 shot at making the ECF. So figure 6-10 home playoff games in each of the next two seasons. But the Bosh team costs Abe an additional $18M next year and around $28M the following year.

Are 8-10 more wins per year and 3-4 more playoff games a year worth $23M a year? I doubt the extra wins cover the cost of the additional salary. Maybe Abe would do it just to win a title, but my guess is that it would turn out to be a bad business decision.

Well, in regard to Abe, he can't take money with him to the grave so I feel he would be a bit more flexible. The team with Rudy is the same old same old. Yes, that team probably becomes the 4th or 5th seed and possibly makes it to the second round. On the other hand, the team with Bosh has a realistic shot at the Finals.

[wizards-fan]

Not directing this at you wizards-fan but the question I keep asking is - under what circumstances would this team have been a "dominant, 60-win team that can compete for a championship for years"? Certainly not with EJ at the helm. And not with the current roster with Jamison at PF and a hole at SG (although the hole isn't quite as deep with DMac playing decent ball).

Folks, this is a team that consistently finishes somewhere between 5-8 and can't get past the first round. That makes the "championship or bust" attitude of some a little humorous. If Flip can take them consistently into the second round of the playoffs (which I fully believe he can), how is that not a HUGE step forward for this franchise? Let's get to that point first and then we can talk about who can take this team to the Finals.

Yeah that's what I want hinting at in my earlier post. Talent ultimately does win out in the NBA. Without Top 10, HOF talent you're just not going to be a serious contender for any significant stretch. Certain guys will bring a hard-ass attitude and whip a bunch of scrubs into something competitive, but after a playoff series or a season or two, the players get burned out and tune him out, the league figures out his schemes, and the lack of talent catches up after guys stop having career years. In the end, teams eventually just play to their talent level. A good NBA coach is going to manage the talent and get the players to play to their level, but not below. I think Flip has shown he can do that consistently. And I think if we want to be a 55-60 win team and win a championship, it's going to depend more on what happens with the #1 pick and Blake Griffin and not with Flip Saunders vs Tom Thibodeau.

[tkunit]

After thinking about it this afternoon, I realized my problem with the choice is that I am indifferent about it. Flip is an established coach who will win us games but doesn't get me excited in the least. Its really all been said already in this thread.

There can be little doubt that we will be back in the playoff's next season.




I just really wanted to be pulling for the new coach to do well as much as I cheer for the wiz to do well.

[Coxy]

Wiz + Saunders + Griffen + Arenas = Top 3 East.

You guys will be sick next season......

[magicfan4life05]

DONE DEAL !


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=y ... &type=lgns

[miller31time]

DONE DEAL !


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=y ... &type=lgns

Good catch.

Since this is official now, we'll lock this thread up and create a new one.