Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!)

[Ruzious]

I don't think Battier's necessarily slipped b/c of declining ability, I think he's just settled into not trying to do anything offensively other than spot up for that corner J. It's almost like he's patterned his game after Bruce Bowen. Bowen has been an awful offensive player for years if you look at just his PER numbers. It's because he does little else than spot up in the corner or make the extra pass.

Defensively Battier is as good as ever. Like Nate said, on a team with Arenas, Jamison, Butler, Foye and Young, you begin to see a declining return on all these offensive assets. You can only have so much offense. Battier IMO would contribute and impact us more on the defensive end than Miller can making 4 or 5 shots a night as part of an offensive juggernaut.

There's also the situation of Miller's impending FA. What are the chances we keep Miller AND Foye next season? As has been mentioned Battier gives us an extra year at an affordable price.

Battier's game is also not based on athleticism. He was never anything more than an average athlete at best. He's a successful defender based on smarts and guile and the dilligence in which he follows the scouting reports. Like Bowen, I suspect Battier to be a more than effective defender into his mid 30s.

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less......................

I never bought the argument about Jamison's game not likely to decline due to his not relying on athleticism, so that argument about Battier not needing athleticism sounds equally week. Obviously, any decline in athleticism would cause a decline in the quality of play - no matter how much guile ands marts a player has. If that wasn't the case, Bill Laimbeer and Joe Dumars would be all-stars this season. If Jamison keeps a high level of play late in his career, it's because he outworks everyone to stay in shape (which he does on the Zards) and stays healthy (which he has).

[Kanyewest]

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less......................

I never bought the argument about Jamison's game not likely to decline due to his not relying on athleticism, so that argument about Battier not needing athleticism sounds equally week. Obviously, any decline in athleticism would cause a decline in the quality of play - no matter how much guile ands marts a player has. If that wasn't the case, Bill Laimbeer and Joe Dumars would be all-stars this season. If Jamison keeps a high level of play late in his career, it's because he outworks everyone to stay in shape (which he does on the Zards) and stays healthy (which he has).

Yao only got injured at the end of the Rockets postseason run. Artest, Von Wafer, Brooks, and Lowry were able to take the shots that T-Mac was taking.

[Ruzious]

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less......................

I never bought the argument about Jamison's game not likely to decline due to his not relying on athleticism, so that argument about Battier not needing athleticism sounds equally week. Obviously, any decline in athleticism would cause a decline in the quality of play - no matter how much guile ands marts a player has. If that wasn't the case, Bill Laimbeer and Joe Dumars would be all-stars this season. If Jamison keeps a high level of play late in his career, it's because he outworks everyone to stay in shape (which he does on the Zards) and stays healthy (which he has).

Yao only got injured at the end of the Rockets postseason run. Artest, Von Wafer, Brooks, and Lowry were able to take the shots that T-Mac was taking.

You're right about Yao, but you gotta be kidding about the others. Artest and Brooks are 40% shooters, Lowry isn't much of a scorer, and... Von Wafer?

[nate33]

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less.......................

I don't understand your point. We are not Houston. Under the extraordinarily unlikely circumstance that we lose three or more of Arenas, Jamison, Butler, Foye and Young to injury, we're going to be out of contention anyhow.

Our issue is defense. We have lots of offense, and precious little D. I don't even see how it's debatable. There's no question that Battier would help us more than Miller. I'm not saying Battier is a better player than Miller, but he'd help us A LOT more.

[miller31time]

Miller could turn into the second coming of Jesus but unless he defends like Battier can, I'd take Shane for the Wizards.

[nate33]

Battier's on/off differential for the last 5 seasons
+11.6
+10.4
+4.3 (team won 53 games)
+4.2 (team won 55 games)
+3.9 (team won 52 games)

Miller's on/off differential
+6.3
-5.6
-2.0
+3.3
-1.1

[Ruzious]

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less.......................

I don't understand your point. We are not Houston. Under the extraordinarily unlikely circumstance that we lose three or more of Arenas, Jamison, Butler, Foye and Young to injury, we're going to be out of contention anyhow.

Our issue is defense. We have lots of offense, and precious little D. I don't even see how it's debatable. There's no question that Battier would help us more than Miller. I'm not saying Battier is a better player than Miller, but he'd help us A LOT more.

This is getting laughable. I said... I liked Rico's idea... to get Battier... twice. See Ben's post. So, who is it that you're arguing with? I just questioned whether he's declining - because there has been a decline in his production - and I don't see him as a savior. Unlike others, I'm not going to pretend that I know whether the decline in his production is or isn't a sign of his decline as a player.

[Ruzious]

Battier's on/off differential for the last 5 seasons
+11.6
+10.4
+4.3 (team won 53 games)
+4.2 (team won 55 games)
+3.9 (team won 52 games)

Miller's on/off differential
+6.3
-5.6
-2.0
+3.3
-1.1

And Battier played with Yao. This has officially become stupid.

[Benjammin]

There are at least two ways to look at a possible Battier deal (not that I think Houston would be that interested in these offers anyway). One is trading Battier for Miller means more defense, less offense, and the security of knowing that Battier has another year on his contract. The other way to look at it is to trade Young/Stevenson, get the upgrade in Battier, and then sort through Battier, Miller, and Foye next off season. I think because Battier was underrated for some time, he is now somewhat overrated. Yet his skill set still would be very helpful for the Wizards.

[nate33]

Houston lost its 2 best scorers last season - Yao and McGrady. It made no sense for the betterment of the team for Battier to intentionally try to score less.......................

I don't understand your point. We are not Houston. Under the extraordinarily unlikely circumstance that we lose three or more of Arenas, Jamison, Butler, Foye and Young to injury, we're going to be out of contention anyhow.

Our issue is defense. We have lots of offense, and precious little D. I don't even see how it's debatable. There's no question that Battier would help us more than Miller. I'm not saying Battier is a better player than Miller, but he'd help us A LOT more.

This is getting laughable. I said... I liked Rico's idea... to get Battier... twice. See Ben's post. So, who is it that you're arguing with? I just questioned whether he's declining - because there has been a decline in his production - and I don't see him as a savior. Unlike others, I'm not going to pretend that I know whether the decline in his production is or isn't a sign of his decline as a player.

Sorry Ruzious, it's a long offseason. I'm arguing just for the sake of arguing when it's not necessary.

All I'm really trying to say is that I'd prefer to trade Miller + 2nd for Battier + Barry, rather than Young + Stevenson for Battier. I'd do it because I think it's more fiscally responsible over the long term. I don't see us holding onto Miller, Foye and Battier when they all have sizeable contracts.

I was under the impression that you preferred the second trade, only now that I look back, you only stated that you wouldn't do that first trade if we also threw in Young. We then got off on a tangent of comparing Miller to Battier, but again, I see that you never explicitly stated that you think Miller is better than Battier. You just expressed concerns over Battier declining.

Bygones.

[nate33]

Battier's on/off differential for the last 5 seasons
+11.6
+10.4
+4.3 (team won 53 games)
+4.2 (team won 55 games)
+3.9 (team won 52 games)

Miller's on/off differential
+6.3
-5.6
-2.0
+3.3
-1.1

And Battier played with Yao. This has officially become stupid.

As an aside, the fact that Battier played with Yao is immaterial. The point is that Battier posted consistently positive on/off differentials. The reason I pointed out that he won 50+ games is because it's harder to post a significantly positive on/off differential on a team that's already very good.

I'm not trying to argue. I'm just explaining why I posted the record.

[Ruzious]

No problem. Sorry about sounding heated before. I think it does positively affect your +/- #s when you play with talented starters. Hypothetically, if Battier plays most of his minutes with Yao, and Battier's backup plays most of his minutes with Ha (Seung Jin), then Battier is more likely to get a good +/-. It's sorta like Jared Jeffries getting good numbers with the Wiz. He got it from playing with Gil, et al. If he was a backup on those teams, he likely would have had poor #s.

[FreeBalling]

by KFlight on Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:09 pm

FreeBalling wrote:
Hey Dude! Your a little late or slow in the head?

It's "you're" by the way...

Come again?

Understand the proper usage of the word your. The word your is the possessive form of you, referring to something that a person has, or something that belongs to the person in discussion [or, the person you are talking to].

[rockymac52]

^exactly. How does that other person HAVE a little late or slow in the head?

It is "you're" which means "you are", as in, "You are a little late or slow in the head?" which still isn't even a real sentence.

[daddyfivestar]

TI: (Lakers, if Odom goes to Miami)

Blatche/Stevenson for Morrison/Yue

Saves Wiz 11 mil on their contracts with Morrison's expiring and Yue's non-guarantee if he doesn't make the squad in October.

LA takes on the extra $ to try and shore up the Odom loss, Wiz save the $ and create more PT for McGee while dumping Stevenson.

[DaRealHibachi]

McGee will get his minutes regardless of the fact that Blatche is here or not... Dumping Dsteve's contract is also not worth losing Blatche over... Especially not now...

Easy no for me...

[verbal8]

TI: (Lakers, if Odom goes to Miami)

Blatche/Stevenson for Morrison/Yue

Saves Wiz 11 mil on their contracts with Morrison's expiring and Yue's non-guarantee if he doesn't make the squad in October.

LA takes on the extra $ to try and shore up the Odom loss, Wiz save the $ and create more PT for McGee while dumping Stevenson.

I think Stevenson is better than Morrison. I possibly could see Nick Young(if Foye is ahead in the depth chart) being packaged with Stevenson to improve cap space, but the return needs to be better. Possibly Morrison is tempting with a future number one pick.

[Dat2U]

I think Stevenson is better than Morrison.

Exactly. That's saying something. In fact, a strong case can be made the Adam Morrison is arguably the worst player in the NBA (him and Michael Ruffin are neck and neck). Even though he's labeled as an offensive player his offensive numbers are absolutely horrible and he's terribly inefficient. Any player in the league with a comparable PER are solely in the league for their defense. And Morrison's incapable of defending any NBA position.

Man, you gotta give it to MJ. Not only did he draft the softest and weakest minded #1 pick in NBA history (and proceeded to run him into ground), he drafted quite possibly the biggest bust as a top 3 pick of the last twenty years.

I get on EG for trading his top 5 draft picks and not taking a chance in the draft but MJ has a legit reason to trade every single draft pick he gets.

[nate33]

TI: (Lakers, if Odom goes to Miami)

Blatche/Stevenson for Morrison/Yue

Saves Wiz 11 mil on their contracts with Morrison's expiring and Yue's non-guarantee if he doesn't make the squad in October.

LA takes on the extra $ to try and shore up the Odom loss, Wiz save the $ and create more PT for McGee while dumping Stevenson.

No. Without hesitation. We're not giving away Blatche that easily.

If the goal is to dump Stevenson, we'll probably wait until the Trade Deadline to do it. He needs to prove to the league that he has recovered from his back injury. The Stevenson of last season was a terrible player that nobody would want. The Stevenson from two years ago was a pretty good defender and a capable 3-point shooter who is paid just $4M a year. If we get that Stevenson back, he should be movable with limited incentive.

If nothing else, we should be able to package him plus $3M cash and a 2nd round pick for an expiring contract. The other team would essentially be paying $1.1M for Deshawn Stevenson while getting a 2nd round pick in the process.

[Ruzious]

Here's a thought - not sure it's a good one... but here goes:
Detroit trades Prince and Bynum and a future unprotected #1 to Wash for the Miller/Foye combo.

Why for Det: They get 13.3 mil coming off the books next offseason if they want. They drafted a player somewhat similar to Prince - as well as Summers - so it's not clear that Prince is in their plans. It's really not clear to me what Joey D has been doing there over the last year or so, so who knows?

Why for Wash: They save nearly 2.2 mil this season - doubled for lux tax affects. The year after it looks like it hurts the cap a lot, but Prince will have a big expiring contract that can be valuable in a trade. It's a big risk, no doubt. EG will have to figure a way to keep Haywood - assuming McGee doesn't have an epiphany. Butler moves to the 2 this year. Bynum was shockingly effective last season and is probably a better backup PG than Foye. Prince gives us basically a longer version of Battier on defense - who can contribute more offense.

The pick is the wild card. Detroit could very well fall apart in a year or 2 - even though I assume they disagree - considering they signed 2 "significant" free agents. My thinking therefore is - they're going to undervalue their pick, because they think they're better than they really are.