Official Trade Thread IX (Visitors Post Trades HERE!)

[Benjammin]

If we feel like we need to deal Stevenson for an expiring, and are willing to use N1 to do it, here are single players who expire next season with salaries within 25% of the pair (minus those which obviously would not be dealt)

Why not do a Stevenson for Brian Cook swap with the Rockets. With the loss of Tmac for the year there is somewhat of a need for shooting guard and Stevenson will mesh well with Battier/Artest if they resign him. Also Brian Cook is an expiring.
If the Wiz sign an extra Big body like an Aaron Gray for cheap:

Arenas/Foye/Critt
Young/Foye/Miller
Butler/Miller/McGuire
Jamison/Blatche/Miller/McGuire
Haywood/McGee/Extra Big

Deep Bench: James, Cook (expiring contracts)
Cook and James expire in suits, Wiz win championship, have the means to resign Miller/Foye/Haywood
then Win it Again!!!

a guy can dream right???

The only problem with a Stevenson/Cook swap (other than they both are poor players) is that Stevenson's contract is a year longer. I don't think Houston would go for that. I do like Aaron Gray as a 3rd string center though if the Wizards could get him cheaply enough.

[mhd]

The only Stevenson deal that makes any sense is a straight swap of Stevenson for Kris Humphries. We save a bit of money as Humphries makes a tad less (900k), but its a good deal regardless. I'd even throw in a 2nd round pick to make it happen if need be.

[penbeast0]

How does this board feel about flipping Miller to LAC for Marcus Camby? (this is allowed if we move fast) Fills thin areas for both teams; I think Camby has more trade value as an emergency replacement if someone's center goes down with injury and we don't have PT for all the 2s and 3s on our roster as it is.

[Hoopalotta]

Nah, I think Miller is going to frame a lot of things for the wizards next year with his passing and shooting. He'll play a bigger role than Camby would for us and I think from a general on-court chemistry standpoint, Miller could really set the stage for what we want to do.

[Benjammin]

I also think Miller will play a bigger role this season than Camby would. Camby and Haywood would not play well together, so that would leave limited time for Camby or cut into Haywood's time in a contract year which would not be good. Miller will be able to play the 2 and 3, hit shots, pass the ball, and be a steadying veteran presence. He will open things up for Gil and Caron as well.

[KevinFCheng]

Miller for 1 year > Camby for 1 year.
Miller for 1 year + extension > Camby for 1 year.

I think Miller will be our glue guy off the bench, a stabilizer to ignite runs or to stop the opponents' runs.

[miller31time]

Miller for 1 year > Camby for 1 year.
Miller for 1 year + extension > Camby for 1 year.

I think Miller will be our glue guy off the bench, a stabilizer to ignite runs or to stop the opponents' runs.

I believe, at this point in both players' careers, Camby is the better player. Miller has regressed while Camby has remained around the same. He actually had a great season last year despite his health and the Clippers sucking.

He posted a PER of nearly 19 and he led the team in on/off differential.

If he can come into Washington, back up Haywood for 15 minutes and play power forward for about 10 minutes every night, he'd be a better fit than Mike Miller.

Mike Miller isn't all that much better than Nick Young. He's better because he's smarter and more multi-faceted on offense but Young is a more efficient scorer and much better defender. Assuming Young can obtain a basic understanding of Flip Saunders' offensive system, his efficiency and effectiveness will only increase. I'm fine with Foye starting and Young being our own version of the Microwave.

Camby will give us something Miller can't - defense. Now, I've been very critical of Camby's defense. I believe him to be a highly overrated defender and in no way should he have a DPOTY award under his belt, but he is a good defender and an excellent shot-blocker and rebounder. Those two aspects of his game, along with his efficient offense make him a more valueable asset to the Wizards than a guy like Mike Miller, who's three-point shooting can be matched by Foye and Young and who's passing ability doesn't match the strengths of Camby's.

Only my 2 cents, though.

[Benjammin]

Interesting take Miller. I don't think that Camby at this point in his career is good at all at the 4. Haywood is hopefully going to play a good 30-32 minutes a game. The Wiz have Blatche and McGee to back him up. I just think that Mike Miller does more things than you give him credit for compared to Young. He's a good rebounder, great shooter, good passer, and while his defense isn't special, at least he's long. Also, there's a much better chance that Miller would be re-signed than Camby. Trading the 5th pick for a one year rental of Miller and keeping Foye is not my idea of a good deal.

[yungal07]

Mike Miller isn't all that much better than Nick Young. .

You can't be serious dude. Miller is about 3 times the player Nick is. And I'm a big Nick Young fan.

[Ruzious]

I was pushing for a Miller trade right before there was any talk of it actually happened, and I stand by the comparison I made at the time - to Hedo. He's not quite as good, but he's right up there. At 6'9, he's 1 inch shorter, and he has the same outstanding shooting and passing skills - as well as the ability to handle the ball. Hedo hadn't been recognized as a top NBA player until the year before last - just because he was never asked to carry as much of a scoring load. And last season, Miller was asked to be more of a distributor than a scorer - because he was on a team of inexperienced players who were much more comfortable shooting than distributing - without a decent PG.

Even looking at their PERs over the years - very similar. Neither of them is going to get you the kind of PER you normally associate with outstanding players. Hedo getting a 14.6 last season indicates... while the PER stat is useful, it shouldn't be as heavily relied on as some of us do. Miller's per dipped from 16.1 to 13.8 because his scoring fell so much. But how many swingmen averaged per pace adjusted 40 - 8.1 rebounds and 5.5 assists last season while shooting 48% FGs and 38% 3's? And that's on a year where people say he fell way off.

[likwitdesi]

Even if the W's get Amare, we could probably still make a move with them, especially if they suck, because there is no way Amare is going to resign with them and S+T possibilities are lower, because so many teams have cap space. I could possibly see, at the trade deadline, a move like this:

James's expiring, Mike Miller's expiring, Young, and Blatche for Amare

[likwitdesi]

Would the Clippers be dumb enough to swap Camby and DeAndre Jordan for Blatche and Stevenson?

[miller31time]

Mike Miller isn't all that much better than Nick Young. .

You can't be serious dude. Miller is about 3 times the player Nick is. And I'm a big Nick Young fan.

Serious as a heart attack.

Young is a better, more efficient scorer. Miller is a better passer and rebounder. Young, however, is a much better defender while Miller is average at best.

Despite Young's lack of a well-rounded game, he and Miller had basically the same PER (Miller's was 13.7, Young's was 13).

Young posted the highest on/off differential on the Wizards (+7.3), while the Timberwolves were statistically worse when Miller was on the floor (-1.1).

Now, statistics aren't everything. They can often times paint a misleading picture, but to throw all of them out of the window is wrong, IMO.

Young constantly gets disrespected on this board for his lack of a well-rounded game but he really does add another dimension to our team and is a valuable contributor to it. Then there's the age factor - Nick is only 24. Miller is closing in on 30.

[pancakes3]

-1, miller.

MM is an enormous upgrade to Young. Young may be a capable scorer but even his scoring isn't well rounded. He's a terrible spot up shooter, takes a lot of "set-up" dribbles to get his shot off, and as good a slasher as he is, he doesn't get a lot of FTA even per 36. Bottom line, unless N1 was visited by 3 ghosts of basketball fundamentals this summer, he'll be forever a 6th man.

And for all the praise that N1 gets for his scoring efficiency but Mike is actually the more efficient player posting 48/40/73 shooting compared to Nick Young's 44/34/85.

as for Defense, young might have the tools to be a great defensive player but he has yet to show any interest in defense. he gives up a 15.8 per to opposing sg, whereas the slower, less athletic Miller gives up a comparable 16.2. Of course, objectively the easiest stat that MM supporters can point to is the rebounding. Miller's a fantastic rebounder which suggests both hustle and awareness - major components of sound defense.

Basically Miller is everything that we want out of DMac sans shotblocking. He's a big guard/forward who hustles for boards, moves the ball around well, and drills the open jumper. Considering how many starts DMac got over Young, it's a safe bet to assume that Miller's a better player than Young as well.

and wrt the Amare talk, If we do put together a package to Phoenix that would rival GSW's offer of Biedrins & co, AJ + scrub guards won't work. they'll be expecting AJ + McGee which would decimate our front line - leaving boukou minutes for Blatche and probably Ruffin. bottom line: Amare's not coming.

[miller31time]

-1, miller.

MM is an enormous upgrade to Young. Young may be a capable scorer but even his scoring isn't well rounded. He's a terrible spot up shooter, takes a lot of "set-up" dribbles to get his shot off, and as good a slasher as he is, he doesn't get a lot of FTA even per 36. Bottom line, unless N1 was visited by 3 ghosts of basketball fundamentals this summer, he'll be forever a 6th man.

And for all the praise that N1 gets for his scoring efficiency but Mike is actually the more efficient player posting 48/40/73 shooting compared to Nick Young's 44/34/85.

as for Defense, young might have the tools to be a great defensive player but he has yet to show any interest in defense. he gives up a 15.8 per to opposing sg, whereas the slower, less athletic Miller gives up a comparable 16.2. Of course, objectively the easiest stat that MM supporters can point to is the rebounding. Miller's a fantastic rebounder which suggests both hustle and awareness - major components of sound defense.

Basically Miller is everything that we want out of DMac sans shotblocking. He's a big guard/forward who hustles for boards, moves the ball around well, and drills the open jumper. Considering how many starts DMac got over Young, it's a safe bet to assume that Miller's a better player than Young as well.

and wrt the Amare talk, If we do put together a package to Phoenix that would rival GSW's offer of Biedrins & co, AJ + scrub guards won't work. they'll be expecting AJ + McGee which would decimate our front line - leaving boukou minutes for Blatche and probably Ruffin. bottom line: Amare's not coming.

Miller is a better spot-up shooter. Other than that, his offensive game is limited and it certainly does not have the potential to drastically improve like Young does.

Also, you say he is forever to be a 6th man...well, that's what I want him to be. I want Foye to start, Young to be our own version of the Microwave and for us to trade Miller for Camby (which is where this discussion started).

[queridiculo]

Miller is a better spot-up shooter. Other than that, his offensive game is limited and it certainly does not have the potential to drastically improve like Young does.

Also, you say he is forever to be a 6th man...well, that's what I want him to be. I want Foye to start, Young to be our own version of the Microwave and for us to trade Miller for Camby (which is where this discussion started).

Between Arenas, Butler and Jamison we have enough slashers, so that component isn't necessarily something that's a plus for a guard on this team.

Saunders offense heavily relies on picks and pops and guards in his offense need to be able to come of picks to stick jumpers, and make teams pay for cheating.

Unless Young has an epiphany this offseason I don't see him being a better fit than Miller. His inability to make plays without the ball in his hands is going to get him stuck on the bench behind both Miller and Foye.

[Ruzious]

Mike Miller isn't all that much better than Nick Young. .

You can't be serious dude. Miller is about 3 times the player Nick is. And I'm a big Nick Young fan.

Serious as a heart attack.

Young is a better, more efficient scorer. Miller is a better passer and rebounder. Young, however, is a much better defender while Miller is average at best.

Despite Young's lack of a well-rounded game, he and Miller had basically the same PER (Miller's was 13.7, Young's was 13).

Young posted the highest on/off differential on the Wizards (+7.3), while the Timberwolves were statistically worse when Miller was on the floor (-1.1).

Now, statistics aren't everything. They can often times paint a misleading picture, but to throw all of them out of the window is wrong, IMO.

Young constantly gets disrespected on this board for his lack of a well-rounded game but he really does add another dimension to our team and is a valuable contributor to it. Then there's the age factor - Nick is only 24. Miller is closing in on 30.

Yes, stats can be misleading when you intentionally use stats that favor your argument and ignore those that don't. Relying on PER can be very misleading. What does it tell you when Miller is - by far the better passer and rebounder and a much more efficient scorer (EFG of .560 vs. .481)? And it's bullspit to say that Young is a much better defender than Miller. Just using the +/- numbers is ridiculous. DeShawn Stephenson had lousy +/- numbers on defense for most of his career, and whether you liked him or not, he was a very solid defender. That's a very hit or miss stat. Right now, Miller is by far... a better player than Young. Even physically, I'm not sure Young has the advantage - as Miller is considerably bigger and stronger.

[GhostOfKwame]

One thing about the trade of the pick that can't be stressed enough is the options it gives you at the trade deadline; if Miller doesn't workout/fit in/gets hurt you can use his expiring deal to make a HUGE trade. With 2010 FA, the demand for expiring contracts at this deadline will be bigger than ever. Look at all the star players that have gotten dealt for expirings the last few seasons (Kwame for Pau for example). It wouldn't make any sense for a team Washington to let contracts expire when we're not close enough to being under the cap, to actually use any caproom. If it Miller is a great fit and we're winning you can resign him for less.

Another asset is the expiring deal of James, it needs to be used in a deal for a PF. I'd be fine with waiting till the season to make the deal (gives them a chance to see just how bad we'll need another, and how good he'll need to be) or doing it now if something nice is out there on the table.

I personally don't value Young in the least bit, but some of you do, and with his physical tools/skills combined with still being young there are always a few GMs who see an upside they think they can help materialize, so it's quite possible he has some value around the league. I can't stress enough though that if I were an NBA coach I wouldn't want him anywhere near my team... I have zero faith in him developing mentally as a player, and pray they get something for him while they still can.

I could see a deal for James's expiring and Young netting a good bigman. Throw in JC. It wouldn't bother me if they added Blatche to a deal if it meant were getting a good big. Next in line would be Foye if we're thinking blockbuster.

I'd say Jamison, but we don't value him near enough... when I see folks here talking about "unloading" him to save the franchise $$$ or for fodder, I wanna pull my hair out. At this point his value is probably much greatly as a part of the team than it would be if we traded him. Worst case is he can be an amazing 6th man if we trade for a really good PF.

With what I saw from JM last season, he does way too many things well and has way too much upside to deal. I don't see him having the mental issues of Young, who's upside I believe is fool's gold. JM really has a chance to be the real deal. Unless it's for a superstar type, he stays.

Either way this team has PLENTY have pieces to make deals. The top of my list is the Young and Mike James's expiring trade. If they wait till the deadline and add Miller's expiring along with Blatche/a pick, that'd be a blockbuster and net a superstar in return.

[miller31time]

Yes, stats can be misleading when you intentionally use stats that favor your argument and ignore those that don't. Relying on PER can be very misleading. What does it tell you when Miller is - by far the better passer and rebounder and a much more efficient scorer (EFG of .560 vs. .481)? And it's bullspit to say that Young is a much better defender than Miller. Just using the +/- numbers is ridiculous. DeShawn Stephenson had lousy +/- numbers on defense for most of his career, and whether you liked him or not, he was a very solid defender. That's a very hit or miss stat. Right now, Miller is by far... a better player than Young. Even physically, I'm not sure Young has the advantage - as Miller is considerably bigger and stronger.

Intentionally use stats that favor my argument? PER, when it comes to in-depth statistics, is rated pretty high on the importance list. As I said, everything must be taken with a grain of salt, but you seem to feel like it's basically worthless.

I question Miller's offensive awareness. He should realize that he shoots as well as he does and actually, you know, shoot more. That's why Young's PER is closer than one would think - because Nick puts up 17.5pts per 36-minutes of play and Milles, despite the high %'s, averages just 11.

For a Minnesota team that needed him to be a primary offensive option, you'd think he would understand that he needed to shoot more.

Listen, I'm in no way saying Young is this incredible player or that Miller is a sack of crap. I'm saying that we can afford to lose Miller and have a credible replacement off the bench in Young.

For as much as I like McGee and know he will be a good player down the road, we could use a good backup center with a defensive mind-set. Camby fits that bill.

With regards to your line about Stevenson, I'd easily argue that he's not the defender his reputation would suggest and the numbers back that up. He seems to give a good effort and attempt to stay in front of his man but ultimately, he's overrated in that aspect.

[yungal07]

How can you question Miller's offensive awareness? The guy is one of the most efficient wings in the league, and has been for a few years now. Punishing him for not shooting enough -- if that's the biggest flaw you can find in the guy's game, well you're not going to sway many opinions on him vs. Young.

Simply put, there's no way Nick Young replaces Mike Miller, unless Nick happens to totally change/improve his game in the next few months. Miller is a better player in pretty much every facet of the game. And if the respective PER numbers suggest that Miller and Nick are close to being equal, than sorry to say it, but PER is a **** stat -- especially when every other stat shows Miller to be a much more effective player.