Official Armchair Coaching thread (Pt 2.)

[doclinkin]

New Era, new version.

This thread is used for breaking down line-ups, plays, X and O's, virtual scouting reports, visions of how things can be run on either offense or defense, maximizing strengths minimizing weaknesses, consolidating background info and research on the coaching philosophy (etc) of the HomeTeam as well as Opponents.

Feel free to drop the nigh-interminable iterations of line-ups and the like until your fingers run out of feeling. I'd personally like to see breakdowns of plays run, diagrammed in MS paint or whatnot. Or descriptive passages imagining how certain lines might play with each other. Tactics and strategy.

To start. A quote from a Flip Saunders DVD teaching his preferred match-up zone:

Through years of development, Flip Saunders has designed one of the NBA's most feared defenses. Coach Saunders unpacks his successful match-up zone defense. He begins his presentation by detailing the benefits of this type of defense. His reasons include its ability to develop player's communication on the floor, stopping great scorers, great scoring teams, employing man defense principles, difficult to scout and can be used with big and small teams.

His general match up rules are:
Never leave the dribbler,
never let the offense penetrate by dribble or pass,
encourage ball to corners,
switching cutters and
contest all perimeter shots.

Triangles are the basis of player position in Saunders' 1-2-2 match-up zone. The basic rule is the farther your man is away from the ball, the flatter the triangle. Position is based on the ball and the position of your man at a given time. Strategy against the overload and pick and roll are demonstrated also.

The match-up is a successful zone that can be played aggressively without fouling a lot. Therefore, you can play good defense while keeping the opponent off of the foul line.

[doclinkin]

More Saunders Defense notes, quoted by Eric Musselman:

-- Playing match-up zone will improve your man-to-man defense because your kids will learn angles.

-- The most important aspect of any defense is communication.

-- Don't assume your kids know your basketball terminology -- even multi-year returners.

-- Three rules of his defense: 1. No layups; 2. Contest all shots; 3. No second shots.

-- Don't defend non-penetrating passes, i.e., passes that go away from the basket. Conversely, defend all penetrating passes.

-- When you double the post, the shot will come from the opposite corner.

-- In transition defense, force the offense to make one more pass.

[doclinkin]

Excellent diagrams and breakdowns of Flip's defense, here.

Is basically a switching man-to-man defence that has one defender on the ball and four defenders close to the paint, including two helpers with the ball (6 eyes on the ball).

Rules
- don't leave the dribbler except when attackers cross, ballscreen or dribble hand-off (switch)
- deny dribble and pass penetration into the paint (do not deny non-penetrating passes)
- play the 3-point line, encourage the ball to the corners or out top, nothing to the house
- contest every shot, no layups, no 2nd shots
- force cutters to go behind, switch all cutters
- never turn your back on the ball, stay in a help position
- front or 3/4 the low post.

There is good defensive rebounding because everyone has man responsibility. The Pistons try to keep bigs in and guards out.

I've seen this a few times with Flip's Detroit version of the zone:

"Scarecrow" - sometimes when the Pistons are playing man-to-man defence, their defenders will stand with locked knees and hands straight up, making it look like a zone defence

.

[doclinkin]

Interesting in that the corner three and the shot from the top of the key are the easiest 3-pt shots to make. The defense encourages opponents to take that shot (though of course it should be defended).

Best guess: the rebounding angles from these shots are fairly predictable. If snuffing 2nd chance points are a primary goal, your zone set-up here allows you to clog the rebound shadow off these angles. Dunno.

[doclinkin]

Quoted elsewhere, but it has a place in this thread:

Flip Saunders was asked about how he'll juggle minutes for his back court, which features seven guards, but he said it's not his problem.

"I don't manage minutes, they do. Whoever can play, plays. If you can't play, you don't play," Flip said. "And the bottom line as a player in the idea of a team is understanding that. But one thing is, we don't have a lot of the same type of player. We don't have duplicate players, they each have their own niche. So, at some point, who knows when, but at some point, everybody is going to have the opportunity to contribute to the team. Now, if we had a lot of players that duplicate themselves, then you would have a concern."

Link

That's an area of exploration. Who fits what niche? What lines give what balance?

Flip loves to play mad professor, I'd love to know how he envisions using the surgical tools in his frankenstein kit. Here's one hint:

McGee said Wizards Coach Flip Saunders told him that there is a possibility that he will share the floor with Haywood at times next season. "He said the bigs are interchangeable, so it's not like really a set four or five," McGee said.

Saunders said he wouldn't ask McGee to be more physical. "Maybe just more consistent energy-wise. You don't have to be more physical to have an impact on the floor," Saunders said. "You look at a guy like Chris Andersen from Denver. He might not be the most physical guy, but he plays at a high energy level and so it looks like he's almost more physical. He has to play at that high energy level consistently. That's the biggest adjustment that all young players have to make. It's more of a mental thing than anything else

I read elsewhere that he currently would like to try Critt as a guy who can press full-court as a defensive specialist, play uptempo both ways. It's a good way to encourage a kid to find a role if he hasn't yet unearthed a jumper or a reliable set-up game. Any team can find a use for an energy guy who can go all-out, in limited minutes.

[Hoopalotta]

Interesting in that the corner three and the shot from the top of the key are the easiest 3-pt shots to make. The defense encourages opponents to take that shot (though of course it should be defended).

Best guess: the rebounding angles from these shots are fairly predictable. If snuffing 2nd chance points are a primary goal, your zone set-up here allows you to clog the rebound shadow off these angles. Dunno.

Well the question is does the defense try and get the ball out to the corner for any length of time, or are we talking about having them kick out for a quick catch and shoot?

If we are talking about flushing the ball to the corner and keeping it there for a little while, it would seem the reason is that there are less angles of attack and these are more predictable. Like a Chess Bishop in the corner versus in the middle of the board.

So maybe the the strategy is to hang the ball up out there with guys looking for an entry pass to a big that is relatively well covered before deciding that there is nothing there and sliding it back up to the top of the key.

That's one idea.

[doclinkin]

Flip says he'll tend towards a 9-10 player rotation. If I'm guessing:

PG: Gil...Foye...Critt
SG: Miller...Nick...Foye
SF: Caron...Miller...Jamison
PF: Jamison...Dray...McGee
C: Haywood...Dray...McGee

That's ten.

Flip says the 4/5 positions are interchangeable in his sets, likes to go big, thus McGee at PF, not Dom. Dunno. I'd love to find minutes for Dom, the team has more shooters than 'glue'-players now. Dom is an ideal fit for Flip's zone though. Opponents aren't sure how to interpret him defensively.

I'm iffy about whether Nick really can earn a role in the offense, unless he picks up a few simple plays he can run again and again. Miller's passing would help mitigate Nick's lack, but that only works when he subs for Caron at SF, with Gil at Point I suppose. And if Nick is slow to recognize the opponent's attack, he may prove a zone liability. Brendan will have to be on court and in his ear. Suggests a bench Nick line of:

Gil
Nick
Miller/Dom
Blatche/McGee
Haywood

Not bad. Caron and Jamison rest. Paint is shaded by large bigs. Either of MM2 or DMcG rebound the middle-ground. If Blatche is actually hitting his jumpers or McGee isn't lost on defense then you have intriguing options on offense/defense. And rebounders who can snag the long bounces produced by outside gunners.

[Hoopalotta]

Flip says he'll tend towards a 9-10 player rotation. If I'm guessing:

PG: Gil...Foye...Critt
SG: Miller...Nick...Foye
SF: Caron...Miller...Jamison
PF: Jamison...Dray...McGee
C: Haywood...Dray...McGee

That's ten.

I'm definitely hoping that Flip backs off the 'eight guys play' mantra that has been thrown around and goes with nine.

Realistically, it makes a lot of sense to see more minutes for one of Blatche or McGee at the expense of the other – with the nod likley going to Dray based on experience – but I am still holding out hope that both guys play, even if it's just for 16 minutes a night. It seems tghat from a development standpoint, this could pay off, though I doubt that is Flip's priority.

Flip says the 4/5 positions are interchangeable in his sets, likes to go big, thus McGee at PF, not Dom. Dunno. I'd love to find minutes for Dom, the team has more shooters than 'glue'-players now. Dom is an ideal fit for Flip's zone though. Opponents aren't sure how to interpret him defensively.

I think pretty tough going to find Dom minutes on a healthy team, but his versatility could be useful plugging in for injuries. One of my big hopes is that as the year goes on and guys get injured, we plug fresh legs in place and don't just up the minutes on the core rotation guys. I would be very happy to see a situation where, even with two guys out, no one is playing more than 34 ticks a game.

I'm iffy about whether Nick really can earn a role in the offense, unless he picks up a few simple plays he can run again and again. Miller's passing would help mitigate Nick's lack, but that only works when he subs for Caron at SF, with Gil at Point I suppose. And if Nick is slow to recognize the opponent's attack, he may prove a zone liability. Brendan will have to be on court and in his ear. Suggests a bench Nick line of:

Gil
Nick
Miller/Dom
Blatche/McGee
Haywood

Not bad. Caron and Jamison rest. Paint is shaded by large bigs. Either of MM2 or DMcG rebound the middle-ground. If Blatche is actually hitting his jumpers or McGee isn't lost on defense then you have intriguing options on offense/defense. And rebounders who can snag the long bounces produced by outside gunners.

This is definitely a good point. Earlier I had mentioned that I hope Nick has a break through development cycle this summer and is able to start for spot minutes. basically I think the only way for him to play reasonably well is paired with Arenas as he and Foye in the backcourt is substandard ball skills.

But the practicality of that is questionable at best. We're looking at a situation where the entire rotation from the point to the small forward is framed around Nick Young's minutes.

For exampel, we can pencil minutes in there like this:

PG – Arenas 34 / Foye 14
SG – Miller 18 / Young 16 / Foye 14
SF – Butler 34 / Miller 14

But does that honestly make any sense in actual practice? I am in doubt. Because as you noted, Young should be out there with Arenas - so are we going to yank one of Butler or Miller at the five minute mark of the first quarter so that Young can get his spot minutes? A backup two should be blending with and complementing the other personnel better than that. Once we are talking about adjusting three or four other players around what you want to do with a one or two dimensional rotation player with limited BB'i'Q, we might just need to tidy up a nook on the shelf.

So I am leaning more towards...

I'm iffy about whether Nick really can earn a role in the offense

It almost seems like Nick Young scraps his way to being the spot starter at 20 minutes a game or he doesn't play at all. And realistically, what are the chances of him beating out Miller and Foye?

That hurts a bit because NY on track and developing could give us a lot more options for 2011 as far as the salary cap and the free agent situation.

I have thoughts on the other rotation possibilities, but we'll save that for another installment.

Sorry, I don't have any plays.

[verbal8]

I would not want to see a backcourt of Foye and Nick Young against other teams first unit. However it may work against the other teams back-ups. It also could help if Miller is at SF to take some of the ball handling pressure off the backcourt. You basically could have Young play SF on offense and SG on defense and Miller do the reverse.

[Hoopalotta]

I would not want to see a backcourt of Foye and Nick Young against other teams first unit. However it may work against the other teams back-ups. It also could help if Miller is at SF to take some of the ball handling pressure off the backcourt. You basically could have Young play SF on offense and SG on defense and Miller do the reverse.

While I concede that we could get by with a look like that, my question would be: "is that the best we can do?"

Do we really want to use Mike Miller's minutes to facilitate Nick Young's offense, or are we better served to have Arenas and Butler drawing lots of attention with Miller then able to exploit that vacuum with 40-something percent three point shooting?

I'm leaning towards the latter at this moment but massive development by Young could swing that around.

[fishercob]

Interesting in that the corner three and the shot from the top of the key are the easiest 3-pt shots to make. The defense encourages opponents to take that shot (though of course it should be defended).

Best guess: the rebounding angles from these shots are fairly predictable. If snuffing 2nd chance points are a primary goal, your zone set-up here allows you to clog the rebound shadow off these angles. Dunno.

doc, I think (could be wrong) that the corner three "movement" is a relatively new outgrowth of the hoops stat community. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if Flip was forced to de-emphasize it a little, especially against the likes of the Texas teams who all use that data.

As far as lineups go, the point is that there are a ton of iterations and it's going to take time for FLip to see what works against what matchup. I do think we're getting bigger though, especially with McGee playing some "4." Our smallest front court duo would be Blatche and Jamison, which aint huge, but creates some serious problems for the opposing D. Our biggest duo would be Brendan and Javale which could be a defensive terror once Javale learns how to play D. Even Haywood and Blatche is an extremely formidable defensive pairing up front.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I suspect that allowing the corner 3 is likely an outgrowth of the overall strategy. Flip's defense wants the ball pushed to the sidelines and the corners (same principles as Larry Brown's defensive system) for a few reasons. First, the offense has fewer options from there. The baseline and sideline act as extra defenders -- a player in the left corner can't go left, for example. Penetrating passes are more difficult. So, that player can a) shoot the ball; b) dribble drive along the baseline (tough going because of baseline and presence of help defenders); c) attempt a pass to the post (which may be crowded because of how the zone overloads); d) dribble or pass away from the basket. Each of those options put the odds in the defense's favor.

Second, when the ball's in the corner, it's a great place to trap. Visibility is tough for the guy with the ball. His passing options are limited. And he has to watch where he steps. Great place to make opposing offensive players uncomfortable and get a cheap turnover or two before the coach can get a timeout and get his guys to execute the counters they have in the gameplan.

Third, the point about the shot coming from the corner when you double the post is descriptive -- it's not expressing a desired outcome. Essentially, that's a communication to the weakside defender to be ready to challenge that shot from the corner. When the ball comes out of the post, it's likely to be reversed around to the corner. So, be ready for it and get a hand in that guy's face.

Finally, every defense has to give up something. The Spurs, for example, are perfectly happy to let the opposition shoot from the top of the key. Move back a few feet to the straightaway 3, and the Spurs will get out there and try to make you put the ball on the floor or pass. I suspect Flip is going for the same thing -- give up that mid-range jumper all day. Challenge layups and threes. Prevent the ball from getting to the middle. These are the same principles that Larry Brown's defense is built upon; same as Popovich's; same as Egan's/Mike Brown's (Cleveland); etc. Look at good defenses over the past decade or so, and most of 'em are built along these same guidelines. Specific schemes change with coaches and personnel, but the overall goals very similar.

[nate33]

Flip says he'll tend towards a 9-10 player rotation. If I'm guessing:

PG: Gil...Foye...Critt
SG: Miller...Nick...Foye
SF: Caron...Miller...Jamison
PF: Jamison...Dray...McGee
C: Haywood...Dray...McGee

That's ten.

I think your starting lineup is right. I figure Miller's catch-and-shoot high-bball-IQ game is the best fit alongside the Big Three. I think Caron will be tasked with guarding the opposition's best swing man and I think he'll do a pretty good job of it since his offensive burden will be smaller. Foye and Blatche will be the primary backups, each getting 20+ minutes a game - making this our primary rotation:

PG: Gil...Foye
SG: Miller...Foye
SF: Caron
PF: Jamison...Dray
C: Haywood...Dray

We need one more guard/swing man and one more guy doing spot duty at center. The center is clearly McGee. The 5th guard/swingman is probably going to be Young or Stevenson (with Miller slliding over to backup SF), though I wouldn't mind if it was DMac. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'd really like to see DMac as that 5th backcourt player. We have plenty of offense already.

I'm iffy about whether Nick really can earn a role in the offense, unless he picks up a few simple plays he can run again and again. Miller's passing would help mitigate Nick's lack, but that only works when he subs for Caron at SF, with Gil at Point I suppose. And if Nick is slow to recognize the opponent's attack, he may prove a zone liability. Brendan will have to be on court and in his ear.

I'm not THAT worried about Nick. It's not like he's some sort of small forward masquerading as a SG a la Jarvis Hayes. Nick has ball skills. He dribbles just fine. He may not have the greatest court vision in the world, but he's capable of handling the ball with few turnovers and his defense has become pretty solid. I reiterate that he led our team in on/off differential last year.

[doclinkin]

I'm not THAT worried about Nick. It's not like he's some sort of small forward masquerading as a SG a la Jarvis Hayes. Nick has ball skills. He dribbles just fine. He may not have the greatest court vision in the world, but he's capable of handling the ball with few turnovers and his defense has become pretty solid. I reiterate that he led our team in on/off differential last year.

That's damning with faint praise on a 19-win team. I'm less concerned with his ability to dribble and more concerned with his ability to play as a teammate. Flip Saunders is a huge proponent of the so-called 'hockey' assist: The pass that leads to the pass that leads to the shot. Nick has great one-on-one skills, nice handle even in traffic. Where he's a risk factor is whenever he's required to think the game, to recognize where he should be, and when.

Kev said after two years Nick didn't recognize many of the basic principles of the Princeton sets. Understood there's a ton of loose ends in the hybrid P-ton, the decision-making is left up to the player's creativity once they make the right cuts, the right reads.

But Flip's playbook essentially has much of the same, the difference is he scripts the read and react. Illustrates the cut, then diagrams the various options off any opponent look from that point. So you're asking Nick, ideally, to memorize what to do after the cut when he couldn't quite remember how and when to make the cut in the first place.

Flip prides himself as a teaching Coach. And Sammy is as hands-on as you get, he'll be in a player's ear all the time, won't let you forget.

I submit Nick and the team will do best when the decision-making is taken out of his hands. Recall the quote from Gil, he asked NIck what a player should do when he finds himself doubled or tripled and can't get to the basket, Nick's quick answer: "Shoot it?"

I expect Flip will find a way to use Nick's remarkable talent. He's clever at game-planning off the inbounds, and scheming set piece plays to get a guy open. He'll drill them 'til they're instinct. But there are only maybe ten plays a game you can script in a dead ball situation, and at some point the coach will tend to rely on the guy he knows can get done what he asks him to do. Nick has a bit of unlearning to do, then he needs to groove a few simple plays before he can be called reliable. Nick with the ball at the top of the key right now is a recipe for a static defense, teammates waiting for something to happen, then a dribble drive jacked shot in the teeth of the defense. Not the best option on a team with a ton of dangerous players and scorers at all positions. There's a better shot available than that.

[TheSecretWeapon]

One thing that must be considered when we're talking about Nick Young is that learning disability. It took a ton of work for him to be eligible to play at USC (kudos to him and his tutors/teachers for doing it). I don't view him not knowing the offense after 2 years as a character defect because I suspect the learning issues had a lot to do with it. The Wiz will need to come up with a way to manage the EFFECT of those learning issues on the team, though. Whether that means hiring a special ed consultant to teach the coaches how to teach Nick, then that should happen. It's something that has to be considered, though.

[fishercob]

One thing that must be considered when we're talking about Nick Young is that learning disability. It took a ton of work for him to be eligible to play at USC (kudos to him and his tutors/teachers for doing it). I don't view him not knowing the offense after 2 years as a character defect because I suspect the learning issues had a lot to do with it. The Wiz will need to come up with a way to manage the EFFECT of those learning issues on the team, though. Whether that means hiring a special ed consultant to teach the coaches how to teach Nick, then that should happen. It's something that has to be considered, though.

They should try, absolutely. BUt at some point -- for whatever the reason -- if a guy can't get it done, he can't get it done. It sucks and may be royally unfair that NIck's mental struggles may have most to do with factors outside his control, but at the end of the day he needs to be reliable to stay on the court. If he isn't, the reason doesn't matter.

[TheSecretWeapon]

I agree completely, fish. As someone once said, I admire the pros for their purity. They're about two things -- making money and winning. Whatever the reason, if Nick can't help the Wizards win, the Wizards need to move on.

[Hoopalotta]

Well I think I was the one who questioned ball handling as far as Nick Young.

But I would suggest that if a guy can technically handle the ball, but can't do it within the context of beneficial utility or faciliatory operations, it's a skill that's done been smote moot. Ball handlers who detract from your ability to execute the offense are like ear muffs stuffed with ice cubes.

In the end, you don't put the ball in their hands; which, in the second-unit scenario I was mentioning, puts undo pressure on Randy Foye to handle the ball all the time (and in a lot of ways actually).

I would also suggest that 'faciliatory' should be a real word.

[doclinkin]

Didn't want to lose Nate's useful coding hack (as modded by Rico here):

Stole this great format from nate.

Code: Select all

      |    1ST QUARTER         |      2ND QUARTER       |
TIME  |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |2 1 0 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
PG    |GA------------------RF--|--------GA--------------|
SG    |RF----------NY----------|------MM--------RF------|
SF    |CB--------------MM------|------CB----------------|
PF    |AJ--------------AB------|------AJ----------------|
C     |BH----------------JM----|------AB--BH------------|


Starters Minutes
Haywood = 32
Jamison = 34
Butler = 34
Foye = 24
Arenas = 36

Reserve Minutes (in order of appearance)
Young = 18
Miller = 24
Blatche = 18
McGee = 12 (could also be Oberto)

Ends up being a 9-man rotation that limites the minutes of the Big Three without losing a lot of production. Thoughts?

Like the ASCII-esque version of the popcornmachine visual game breakdown. Compaq style.

[doclinkin]

FYI - I got the tour of the phone booth yesterday as a planholder. It was pretty cool.
When we were in the locker room, there was a guy there that talked to us about
the program the players are on during the offseason. He said some of the stuff (juice)
that's on this program is pretty nasty. So they do have nutritious foods as part of
their program. I asked the first 2 questions of the guy (Holland?). Who has the
inside track on the starting 2 (he said, Foye/Young)

Tough to get a read on Nick's defense in summertime play, but interesting to hear they might think he's ready to go. If he were up to snuff and good enough to beat out Foye/Miller we'd really have something to see. I liked his Vegas play, when running off the ball, and could see exactly how he'd fit nicely next to Gil -- the fact that Flip prefers his PG to do most of the ballhandling counts towards making Nick a more useful player. Less dribbling in place then driving into the teeth of the defense for a pull up, all he has to do is run his patterns and be ready to shoot as soon as the ball touches his hands, let someone else worry about deciding if he's open or not.

Nick's got the length to make the Flip HPTZ defense work, and boiled down to basics it's not a tough concept for most perimeter players to get: play man, but don't leave your area, switch the pick. Could actually make him a more effective defender pretty quick. Might be surprising.

But I'm not wholly sure we have all the personnel in place to really make the Hyperbolic Paraboloid Transitional Floating Zone thing work. Flip loves to run line-ups that feature length at all positions. But playing your most effective players you'd have to displace Jamison to SF (in the Wally Sczerbiak spot, same role that Mike Miller will likely take) and possibly play the long-armed Caron at off-guard (adding to that backcourt log-jam).

The system doesn't worry too much if the perimeter player gets beat (thus okay for Jams and Caron outside) so long as you have a ton of size inside to make them pull up and shoot from midrange. That means Blatche or McGee (or maybe McGuire) next to Haywood. Would be great if either one of them had the savvy to take the Kevin Garnett free safety role on defense to cover mistakes and challenge the drive. But Caron at SF may not be the best option since he can't slide to mimic a PF the way KG could (when he was played at SF next to Joe Smith and Rasho).

It's still a work in progress I suspect. Zone-style here are the better matches for the role if not quite the rotation:

Gil/Foye -- Gil has shown the ability to apply pressure D at times. Now slim and trim he way ahve even better footspeed to contain the quick.
CB/Nick -- Caron has the smarts and long arms and pesky savvy to captain the Zone, in the Spree/Hassell/Tayshaun role
AJ/Mike -- Jamison is less of a liability as a wing player, he just needs to be tall and challenge the three.
Dray/Obie -- Dray next to Haywood looks daunting. Though Dray better work on the core strength not to be shoved out of position by his match.
Haywood/McGee -- McGee next to Oberto might be a good pairing. Oboy can play fundamental positionally sound defense while McGee hunts heads like a freelance merc.

There are some good mix and match possibilities, but I don't see a two-way perfect line-up.

I still have the sense that players like Dom and DeShawn will look good enough in the system in practice that Flip will be tempted to find a role for them. Though even if he's doing a good job I can't see Javaris looking all that great since after all he'll be matched on Gil.