Is it time to flip flop on Flip?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm not going the Official Countdown to Firing or Amazingly Sucky route just yet, but I'm pushing away the koolaid and taking off the rose colored glasses on Coach Saunders. A lot of things are bothering me.

1. Oberto's minutes. How does a guy who generates nearly as many fouls as points or rebounds get starter's minutes? Bothersome is that McGee is out of the rotation and getting criticized by fans of Oberto. Bringing Fab was supposed to stabilize things. Guy does a lot of nice things, but the Wizards are in the penalty and at a deficit a lot of time because of Oberto. That's Flip's guy.

2. Foye's defense. What defense? This is Flip's guy to the extent Young sucks and is out of the rotation.

3. Veterans getting benefit of a doubt. Flip was critical of Young not knowing where to be and what to do, and he has McGee nailed to the bench or confused. But he still plays Stevenson and James and gives them respect. I think it's a continuation of what we saw with EJ, only worse. Eddie let McGee play through mistakes and he never had Young this uptight.

4. The Hawk. It's a dove so far. I don't know the Xs and Os. I'll also say Jamison looked great on offense prior to injury and Miller was quite the facilitator. Blatche looked good prior to tonight. That said, this offense is much less effective. I think guys are thinking on offense. That's apparently worse than the chucking with impunity the big three used to do.

5. The short rotation. I wouldn't be questioning it if the Wizards were 4-2 or 3-3 instead of 2-4. To me, the man should have figured out that McGee is a very effective scorer and he should play alongside Haywood. Oberto's gotten way more run than he should have. A short bench on a losing team looks really bad. That's on Flip.

6. Flip's been chill. Too chill when the team has melted down in the Cleveland game and the Atlanta game for my taste. Go off on the officials and get tossed. Do something radical IMO.

I think Flip is going to have an uphill climb.

Others, especially those with faith in Flip, please feel free to tell me why the sky isn't falling.

[mohammed10]

^^^ Great analysis, CCJ

Who was it that was telling me to step back from the ledge????

[Halcyon]

When your two "stars" are -24 and -22 on the +/- chart, I don't see how you can blame the coach. Maybe the young guys should be getting more run with Miller and Jamison out, and Flip could be doing a better job with that, but when your expected key contributors play like ass the coach can't do much, can he?

[mohammed10]

BTW, CCJ - We are 2-4 right now. If it makes you feel better to call Sunday's Suns game a loss right now, I may join you as they are 5-1 and look very impressive.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

BTW, CCJ - We are 2-4 right now. If it makes you feel better to call Sunday's Suns game a loss right now, I may join you as they are 5-1 and look very impressive.

Thanks mohammed. I edited it. Feels like 2-5.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Dude the season just started... seriously?

[mohammed10]

Thanks, mohammed, I edited it. Feels like 2-5.

I know what you mean, my friend.

[mohammed10]

Dude the season just started... seriously?

I think we all said the same thing around this time last year, too

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When your two "stars" are -24 and -22 on the +/- chart, I don't see how you can blame the coach. Maybe the young guys should be getting more run with Miller and Jamison out, and Flip could be doing a better job with that, but when your expected key contributors play like ass the coach can't do much, can he?

Yes he can. He can shuffle the deck and start McGuire in place of Miller. He can also start Blatche in place of Oberto. He could make McGee come in for Blatche and Oberto come in for Haywood. The frontcourt starters are too stiff and unathletic.

Arenas, McGuire, Butler, Blatche, and Haywood might get outquicked but it won't get outrebounded. It's a big, athletic, lineup.

Flip has done damage IMO to the young players by insisting on his system over actually looking at the +/- of guys like McGee and McGuire. One thing he can do from here on out is let them get more minutes and not take out his frustration by giving them a quick hook, while turning a blind eye to guys like Butler and Arenas being -20. Play whoever's getting it done or not sucking at the time.

[Wizards2Lottery]

Dude the season just started... seriously?

I think we all said the same thing around this time last year, too

This is just ridiculous now.

[go'stags]

New coach, new system, tons of new players, this is to be expected. We don't look in sync on offense.

Heres the thing: We have played 6 games. And we had 2 starters missing today.

I would be panicking, too, if Flip hadn't had a great offense everywhere he has been. He is a very smart coach, he will figure it out.

I think he needs to realize that Gil works better in space, not with a pick clogging things up, and maybe Caron should be used as more than an isolation scorer. That might get him going. Having Jamison and Miller back will also help a lot. It hurts to only have 2 big men who can challenge u at all offensively

We haven't looked great so far, but maybe that Mavericks game played with our heads. Most here expected us to start slowly, but that changed quickly after the first game. Well, it seems this is what "starting slowly" looks like. Flip is a smart coach, I think we will be fine.

[Donkey McDonkerton]

New coach, new system, tons of new players, this is to be expected. We don't look in sync on offense.

Heres the thing: We have played 6 games. And we had 2 starters missing today.

I would be panicking, too, if Flip hadn't had a great offense everywhere he has been. He is a very smart coach, he will figure it out.

I think he needs to realize that Gil works better in space, not with a pick clogging things up, and maybe Caron should be used as more than an isolation scorer. That might get him going. Having Jamison and Miller back will also help a lot. It hurts to only have 2 big men who can challenge u at all offensively

We haven't looked great so far, but maybe that Mavericks game played with our heads. Most here expected us to start slowly, but that changed quickly after the first game. Well, it seems this is what "starting slowly" looks like. Flip is a smart coach, I think we will be fine.

I agree with you. I get just as upset as anyone here after a loss, but I told myself I have to give the team time. That goes both ways, I wasn't ready to claim our top 3 spot after beating the Mavs and im not ready to claim us as a bottom team fighting for an 8th spot now.

[LyricalRico]

I think Flip is doing just fine. Once Jamison gets back the offense will look better. Then Ernie will make a trade or two and we'll be back on track.

[Munson79rip]

"I was trying to get someone to play hard," Saunders said. "I told those guys, I can't coach effort. You got to come out and be prepared and play hard.

[dandridge 10]

I'm not going the Official Countdown to Firing or Amazingly Sucky route just yet, but I'm pushing away the koolaid and taking off the rose colored glasses on Coach Saunders. A lot of things are bothering me.

1. Oberto's minutes. How does a guy who generates nearly as many fouls as points or rebounds get starter's minutes? Bothersome is that McGee is out of the rotation and getting criticized by fans of Oberto. Bringing Fab was supposed to stabilize things. Guy does a lot of nice things, but the Wizards are in the penalty and at a deficit a lot of time because of Oberto. That's Flip's guy.

Oberto has not looked good the last couple of games, but at least he plays within the scheme of the offense. McGee just does his own thing out there. No coach is going to like that. You know that Flip has told McGee to concentrate on defense and rebounding out there, and it appears that all McGee cares about is getting his points.

2. Foye's defense. What defense? This is Flip's guy to the extent Young sucks and is out of the rotation.

Foye gets burned on defense because of a lack of quickness not from a lack of effort or being in the wrong spot. Besides, Foye is at least bringing something else to the table...scoring and some assists. Young hasn't brought ANYTHING to the table yet this season.

3. Veterans getting benefit of a doubt. Flip was critical of Young not knowing where to be and what to do, and he has McGee nailed to the bench or confused. But he still plays Stevenson and James and gives them respect. I think it's a continuation of what we saw with EJ, only worse. Eddie let McGee play through mistakes and he never had Young this uptight.

Every NBA coach is going to give veterans a benefit of the doubt. You ain't going to find a coach that doesn't so you might as well get over it.

4. The Hawk. It's a dove so far. I don't know the Xs and Os. I'll also say Jamison looked great on offense prior to injury and Miller was quite the facilitator. Blatche looked good prior to tonight. That said, this offense is much less effective. I think guys are thinking on offense. That's apparently worse than the chucking with impunity the big three used to do.

Of course the guys are thinking on offense...that comes with a new system. We all predicted a slow start because of this reason.

5. The short rotation. I wouldn't be questioning it if the Wizards were 4-2 or 3-3 instead of 2-4. To me, the man should have figured out that McGee is a very effective scorer and he should play alongside Haywood. Oberto's gotten way more run than he should have. A short bench on a losing team looks really bad. That's on Flip.

Flip played everyone on the bench last night looking for someone to give them a spark. Everyone sucked, including your boy McGee

6. Flip's been chill. Too chill when the team has melted down in the Cleveland game and the Atlanta game for my taste. Go off on the officials and get tossed. Do something radical IMO.

Maybe, but if the players can't get up and have the intensity to play the game after only 6 games and only winning 19 games last year, you have to question what kind of heart the players on this team has and whether a coach ranting and raving is going to make any difference

I think Flip is going to have an uphill climb.

I think your post is extremely premature.

Others, especially those with faith in Flip, please feel free to tell me why the sky isn't falling.

My answers are in the text of your quote. The sky is not falling......yet. However, I still have concerns about the make-up of this team.

[fishercob]

I'm not going the Official Countdown to Firing or Amazingly Sucky route just yet, but I'm pushing away the koolaid and taking off the rose colored glasses on Coach Saunders. A lot of things are bothering me.

1. Oberto's minutes. How does a guy who generates nearly as many fouls as points or rebounds get starter's minutes? Bothersome is that McGee is out of the rotation and getting criticized by fans of Oberto. Bringing Fab was supposed to stabilize things. Guy does a lot of nice things, but the Wizards are in the penalty and at a deficit a lot of time because of Oberto. That's Flip's guy.

I don't think Oberto gets "starter minutes" much as he does start the game. He played 11 last night and is averaging 21. Granted, those numbers would be higher if he wasn't such a hack. Flip -- and he said as much -- is starting Fab-O b/c he wants Dray to get comfortable as the first big off the bench. He's taking the long view on this. It's a little ugly right now, but the goal is to be a great team in May and June, not November.

2. Foye's defense. What defense? This is Flip's guy to the extent Young sucks and is out of the rotation.

I think Young's struggles and Foye's production or lack thereof are separate issues. Foye's by no means a perfect player, but we're two deep into your list and we're talking about the second guy who is already being forced to play above his envisioned role.

3. Veterans getting benefit of a doubt. Flip was critical of Young not knowing where to be and what to do, and he has McGee nailed to the bench or confused. But he still plays Stevenson and James and gives them respect. I think it's a continuation of what we saw with EJ, only worse. Eddie let McGee play through mistakes and he never had Young this uptight.

Come on, CCJ. Flip doesn't have McGee confused. McGee's confused! That's not Flip's fault. As much as we talk about Javale's cluelessness on D, unless it's a fast break and/or lob situation, he's just as clueless on O right now. In a team sport, you can't put a guy out there who doesn't know what to do and how to execute the plan and expect the other four guys to cover for him. It f*cks everything up. Isn't it possible (in fact, likely) that if two separate coaching staffs think they can't rely on Nick Young b/c he's too mentally challenged that THAT is indeed the problem. When are Nick's shortcomings going to be his responsibilities and not those of his coach?

4. The Hawk. It's a dove so far. I don't know the Xs and Os. I'll also say Jamison looked great on offense prior to injury and Miller was quite the facilitator. Blatche looked good prior to tonight. That said, this offense is much less effective. I think guys are thinking on offense. That's apparently worse than the chucking with impunity the big three used to do.

It's ugly right now for sure. As miller and others pointed out in the pre-season, it's reasonable to expect a team to struggle adapting to a new system. The problem is magnified by the injuries. The hawk worked just fine in Detroit and Minnesota (and for that matter, the Princeton worked just fine in Sacramento and here when guys were healthy). It's much more about the players in a system than it is a system.

5. The short rotation. I wouldn't be questioning it if the Wizards were 4-2 or 3-3 instead of 2-4. To me, the man should have figured out that McGee is a very effective scorer and he should play alongside Haywood. Oberto's gotten way more run than he should have. A short bench on a losing team looks really bad. That's on Flip.

This is kind of recycling of issues above. Suffice it to say, guys who hadn't played got their shot against Indy and produced bubkus. That's on THEM.

6. Flip's been chill. Too chill when the team has melted down in the Cleveland game and the Atlanta game for my taste. Go off on the officials and get tossed. Do something radical IMO.

I would have liked to have seen Flip be more confrontational with the guys in the huddle. But it's really hard to yell at millionaires on TV and get the intended results. It's just much easier said than done. On the officials, I think, again, that FLip's taking the long view and opting not to get into pissing matches that will hurt him down the road.

I think Flip is going to have an uphill climb.

Others, especially those with faith in Flip, please feel free to tell me why the sky isn't falling.

CCJ, Flip's no savior, just as EJ wasn't the scapegoat he was made out to be. You gotta have a healthy team. And the millionaires on that team -- young and old alike -- need to have the pride and maturity to prepare themselves to play every night. The reason to believe it's can get better is that at least theoretically, this team will get all its horses back and have everyone playing their envisioned roles. Once that happens for a month or two and things have had time to gel, I think we'll all like the results. But if we can't break this curse and stay healthy it really is hopeless.

[barelyawake]

Oubleday ostpay

[barelyawake]

CCJ, I believe we will (or should) settle on a line-up of Arenas, Caron, Dom, AJ, Haywood with Blatche and Miller the first off the bench. It took awhile for ej to figure out to start jeffries for the same reasons. I agree that Arenas, caron, dom, blatche, Haywood is the best lineup for many matchups. again, these are all reasons I hate the trade for foye and hope we make another trade soon. Arenas needs a distributor/defender next to him. Foye is not that.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm not going the Official Countdown to Firing or Amazingly Sucky route just yet, but I'm pushing away the koolaid and taking off the rose colored glasses on Coach Saunders. A lot of things are bothering me.

1. Oberto's minutes. How does a guy who generates nearly as many fouls as points or rebounds get starter's minutes? Bothersome is that McGee is out of the rotation and getting criticized by fans of Oberto. Bringing Fab was supposed to stabilize things. Guy does a lot of nice things, but the Wizards are in the penalty and at a deficit a lot of time because of Oberto. That's Flip's guy.

Oberto has not looked good the last couple of games, but at least he plays within the scheme of the offense. McGee just does his own thing out there. No coach is going to like that. You know that Flip has told McGee to concentrate on defense and rebounding out there, and it appears that all McGee cares about is getting his points.

My responses to dandridge (red) are in blue. (Thanks BTW, dandridge, because each of your points are well thought.)

Oberto certainly does play within the scheme of the offense. I also agree with you, dandridge, that Javale does his own thing and is much more into scoring than either defending or rebounding. I disagree with Flip for limiting McGee to being something that he clearly isn't: a defender. I say let the young guy score on alley oops from Foye. Let him energize the crowd and look the other way when he is clueless. Encourage, don't overcoach. Young guys don't usually have the wisdom of an old pro, no more than a guy like Oberto can run and jump like a young guy. I don't like Flip's take on McGee, dandridge, but I see your point on coaches wanting somebody to work within the system.

2. Foye's defense. What defense? This is Flip's guy to the extent Young sucks and is out of the rotation.

Foye gets burned on defense because of a lack of quickness not from a lack of effort or being in the wrong spot. Besides, Foye is at least bringing something else to the table...scoring and some assists. Young hasn't brought ANYTHING to the table yet this season.

I agree with all of that.

3. Veterans getting benefit of a doubt. Flip was critical of Young not knowing where to be and what to do, and he has McGee nailed to the bench or confused. But he still plays Stevenson and James and gives them respect. I think it's a continuation of what we saw with EJ, only worse. Eddie let McGee play through mistakes and he never had Young this uptight.

Every NBA coach is going to give veterans a benefit of the doubt. You ain't going to find a coach that doesn't so you might as well get over it.

Yep they do. But I have a problem with it when a gifted young guy stays on the bench. There are a lot of good young players getting minutes. Jennings is starting over Ridnour. Flynn is starting ahead of Sessions. Hibbert and Hansbrough got a lot of run beating a coach that plays his veterans. I expect Gibson and Evans to step up due to injuries of other players in their spot. Relative to the Wizards, McGuire and McGee have more talent than guys like Stevenson and Oberto. Look at the minutes played so far and the record and I don't think Flip's done right sticking with the veterans.

4. The Hawk. It's a dove so far. I don't know the Xs and Os. I'll also say Jamison looked great on offense prior to injury and Miller was quite the facilitator. Blatche looked good prior to tonight. That said, this offense is much less effective. I think guys are thinking on offense. That's apparently worse than the chucking with impunity the big three used to do.

Of course the guys are thinking on offense...that comes with a new system. We all predicted a slow start because of this reason.

Give it time, indeed.

5. The short rotation. I wouldn't be questioning it if the Wizards were 4-2 or 3-3 instead of 2-4. To me, the man should have figured out that McGee is a very effective scorer and he should play alongside Haywood. Oberto's gotten way more run than he should have. A short bench on a losing team looks really bad. That's on Flip.

Flip played everyone on the bench last night looking for someone to give them a spark. Everyone sucked, including your boy McGee

Young +/- 0 in 15 minutes, McGuire - 2 in 8 minutes, and McGee -1 in 7 minutes were not the problem if stats mean anything. I didn't see the game. Arenas (-24) and Butler (-22) were a combined -46, Oberto was -17 with 5 fouls and 2 points in 11 minutes.

If my boy McGee sucked like that most would want him traded. The difference is McGee is 21 and improving and Oberto is 34 with his best basketball behind him.

6. Flip's been chill. Too chill when the team has melted down in the Cleveland game and the Atlanta game for my taste. Go off on the officials and get tossed. Do something radical IMO.

Maybe, but if the players can't get up and have the intensity to play the game after only 6 games and only winning 19 games last year, you have to question what kind of heart the players on this team has and whether a coach ranting and raving is going to make any difference

I think Flip is going to have an uphill climb.

I think your post is extremely premature.

Honestly, I do think I'm a bit early with this post, too, dandridge.

Others, especially those with faith in Flip, please feel free to tell me why the sky isn't falling.

My answers are in the text of your quote. The sky is not falling......yet. However, I still have concerns about the make-up of this team.

My concerns may differ from yours. I just feel like somebody should say SOMETHING. Jamison cursed out his teammates for lack of effort and Flip's touting lack of effort. I say that's only part of the problem.

Flip's part of the problem, too, for reasons above IMO.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I'm not going the Official Countdown to Firing or Amazingly Sucky route just yet, but I'm pushing away the koolaid and taking off the rose colored glasses on Coach Saunders. A lot of things are bothering me.

1. Oberto's minutes. How does a guy who generates nearly as many fouls as points or rebounds get starter's minutes? Bothersome is that McGee is out of the rotation and getting criticized by fans of Oberto. Bringing Fab was supposed to stabilize things. Guy does a lot of nice things, but the Wizards are in the penalty and at a deficit a lot of time because of Oberto. That's Flip's guy.

I don't think Oberto gets "starter minutes" much as he does start the game. He played 11 last night and is averaging 21. Granted, those numbers would be higher if he wasn't such a hack. Flip -- and he said as much -- is starting Fab-O b/c he wants Dray to get comfortable as the first big off the bench. He's taking the long view on this. It's a little ugly right now, but the goal is to be a great team in May and June, not November.

The only reason he played 11 is he had 5 fouls, but you do note he's a hack. I don't really have a problem with Oberto starting, but I think it would make a lot more sense to start Blatche at PF. I think Oberto should be Haywood's backup and Javale should be Andray's backup. Let Andray get big minutes with Jamison out, because he's earned them. Let Javale play more now, because if he doesn't play now he won't play at all this season once Jamison comes back. If anything, finish games with Oberto, because mistakes are more crucial then.

2. Foye's defense. What defense? This is Flip's guy to the extent Young sucks and is out of the rotation.

I think Young's struggles and Foye's production or lack thereof are separate issues. Foye's by no means a perfect player, but we're two deep into your list and we're talking about the second guy who is already being forced to play above his envisioned role.

I say waive Paul Davis and sign Morris Almond. Now there's a good SG.

3. Veterans getting benefit of a doubt. Flip was critical of Young not knowing where to be and what to do, and he has McGee nailed to the bench or confused. But he still plays Stevenson and James and gives them respect. I think it's a continuation of what we saw with EJ, only worse. Eddie let McGee play through mistakes and he never had Young this uptight.

Come on, CCJ. Flip doesn't have McGee confused. McGee's confused! That's not Flip's fault. As much as we talk about Javale's cluelessness on D, unless it's a fast break and/or lob situation, he's just as clueless on O right now. In a team sport, you can't put a guy out there who doesn't know what to do and how to execute the plan and expect the other four guys to cover for him. It f*cks everything up. Isn't it possible (in fact, likely) that if two separate coaching staffs think they can't rely on Nick Young b/c he's too mentally challenged that THAT is indeed the problem. When are Nick's shortcomings going to be his responsibilities and not those of his coach?


It doesn't f things up any more than Fab getting th team in the penalty early or him getting dunked or or him getting beat on the boards. McGee is so much more physically talented than anybody but Gil on this team that I for the life of me can't see why folks don't look at the actual impact on games the kid has. He gets the dunks Haywood can't. He blocks shot nobody else does. He's 21 and in his second year. I'd let him do the hell what he wants for 5-10 minutes here and there and I'd make sure the rest of the damn team plays to his strengths. Gil, Foye, Dominic, Javale, and Brendan would kick ass because Foye lobs to Javale and Dray and Javale know how to play together. Flip needs to let Javale play.

Nick, OTOH, is limited just like you say, fish. Nothing but a scorer and not able to dominate a game when his shot isn't on, and that's a lot of the time.

4. The Hawk. It's a dove so far. I don't know the Xs and Os. I'll also say Jamison looked great on offense prior to injury and Miller was quite the facilitator. Blatche looked good prior to tonight. That said, this offense is much less effective. I think guys are thinking on offense. That's apparently worse than the chucking with impunity the big three used to do.

It's ugly right now for sure. As miller and others pointed out in the pre-season, it's reasonable to expect a team to struggle adapting to a new system. The problem is magnified by the injuries. The hawk worked just fine in Detroit and Minnesota (and for that matter, the Princeton worked just fine in Sacramento and here when guys were healthy). It's much more about the players in a system than it is a system.

I agree.

5. The short rotation. I wouldn't be questioning it if the Wizards were 4-2 or 3-3 instead of 2-4. To me, the man should have figured out that McGee is a very effective scorer and he should play alongside Haywood. Oberto's gotten way more run than he should have. A short bench on a losing team looks really bad. That's on Flip.

This is kind of recycling of issues above. Suffice it to say, guys who hadn't played got their shot against Indy and produced bubkus. That's on THEM.

Arenas, Butler, Oberto dig the hole but the other guys get the blame for not pulling the team out of it? Yeah, right.

6. Flip's been chill. Too chill when the team has melted down in the Cleveland game and the Atlanta game for my taste. Go off on the officials and get tossed. Do something radical IMO.

I would have liked to have seen Flip be more confrontational with the guys in the huddle. But it's really hard to yell at millionaires on TV and get the intended results. It's just much easier said than done. On the officials, I think, again, that FLip's taking the long view and opting not to get into pissing matches that will hurt him down the road.

I think Flip is going to have an uphill climb.

Others, especially those with faith in Flip, please feel free to tell me why the sky isn't falling.

CCJ, Flip's no savior, just as EJ wasn't the scapegoat he was made out to be. You gotta have a healthy team. And the millionaires on that team -- young and old alike -- need to have the pride and maturity to prepare themselves to play every night. The reason to believe it's can get better is that at least theoretically, this team will get all its horses back and have everyone playing their envisioned roles. Once that happens for a month or two and things have had time to gel, I think we'll all like the results. But if we can't break this curse and stay healthy it really is hopeless.

I can see patience over the long haul being Flip's approach. OTOH I think Miami was a winnable game. I think the Cavs game shouldn't have been the blowout that it was. I think Flip could have done a lot more than he did both games. The players he didn't use and the technical he didn't get in Cleveland bothered me. Calling out the players' effort is BULLSHYT! Guys don't get the benefit of a doubt for injuries or his system. Caron was never awful before and I know he tries. Flip pussyfoots with the refs but goes off on the young guys and calls out the team? All that is doing is destroying chemistry. Blatche has been heroic this season while Jamison's been out. He better STFU on Blatche as far as I'm concerned.

I just call it the way I see it. The guys who are injured are hurting the team. You haven't heard m post one negative thing about Gil this season. He's been the best thing -- him and Blatche and at times Mike Miller.

But calling out folks and not taking everything into account is bad IMO.