Is it time to flip flop on Flip?

[go'stags]

I'm with Nate, there isnt really anything you can point out that Flip did in this particular game that cost us the game.

The game was lost when Haywood missed those FTs and Frye hit a 3 on the other end. It was especially over when Amare got a dunk after Foye missed a 3. Butler, Blatche, it wouldn't have mattered. Maybe Amare got that dunk because Blatche was tired from playing 15 straight minutes and missed a rotation.

But when we made that comeback, it was spurred by our defense. Defense that everyone said was the problem with EJ [which it was]. I know most people would have said the past few years, while the other team was raining down threes, that they would gladly sacrifice some offense for defense. In basketball, like football, the defense is ahead of the offense early in the year, especially with a new system and so many new players. Not to mention injuries.

Give it some time.

BTW, I don't see how it can be said that Flip isn't giving Nick Young enough chances. He started him in the first preseason game, started him in the second half against ATL even thought he didnt deserve too, and again against the Pacers, when he clearly hadn't earned it. i would argue that Flip desperately WANTED Nick to start, but the kid never did anything to earn the spot, only lose it.

Give it time, people.

[go'stags]

Flip just confirmed what I thought regarding Blatche in his post game conference.

He said Blatche made 4 consecutive mental mistakes down the stretch from being tired, and he specifically named the Amare dunk.

He did give Andray credit though for playing well, so he wasn't just bashing him.

Andray was one of the bright spots today, along with Haywood,

[nate33]

But when we made that comeback, it was spurred by our defense. Defense that everyone said was the problem with EJ [which it was]. I know most people would have said the past few years, while the other team was raining down threes, that they would gladly sacrifice some offense for defense. In basketball, like football, the defense is ahead of the offense early in the year, especially with a new system and so many new players. Not to mention injuries.

Give it some time.

Good post.

I know we look terrible right now, but there are two things that have me very optimistic about the rest of the season. Number 1 is the play of Blatche. He has been very good all season. Even his bad games aren't that bad. The kid is a legit starting-caliber big man, and he still has plenty of room to grow. If a guy like that is the sixth or seventh best player, the team is in good shape.

The other reason for optimism is that the team is playing defense. The thing about defense is that it's there every night. Not only that, but the defense we play isn't a gambling style that's going to work sometimes and burn you other times. We play good FG% defense (9th overall). We make it difficult for opponents to score efficiently. Offense can come and go, but FG% defense can keep you in games and help you win ugly.

I see no reason why the play of Blatche can't continue. And I see no reason for our defense to falter. Sooner or later, the offense will come around. When it does, we'll be able to combine it with good D and good big man depth, which is a recipe for success - and not just success, but consistency.

[DaRealHibachi]

But when we made that comeback, it was spurred by our defense. Defense that everyone said was the problem with EJ [which it was]. I know most people would have said the past few years, while the other team was raining down threes, that they would gladly sacrifice some offense for defense. In basketball, like football, the defense is ahead of the offense early in the year, especially with a new system and so many new players. Not to mention injuries.

Give it some time.

Good post.

I know we look terrible right now, but there are two things that have me very optimistic about the rest of the season. Number 1 is the play of Blatche. He has been very good all season. Even his bad games aren't that bad. The kid is a legit starting-caliber big man, and he still has plenty of room to grow. If a guy like that is the sixth or seventh best player, the team is in good shape.

The other reason for optimism is that the team is playing defense. The thing about defense is that it's there every night. Not only that, but the defense we play isn't a gambling style that's going to work sometimes and burn you other times. We play good FG% defense (9th overall). We make it difficult for opponents to score efficiently. Offense can come and go, but FG% defense can keep you in games and help you win ugly.

I see no reason why the play of Blatche can't continue. And I see no reason for our defense to falter. Sooner or later, the offense will come around. When it does, we'll be able to combine it with good D and good big man depth, which is a recipe for success - and not just success, but consistency.

Amen Brother!!!

[LyricalRico]

+2

[BanndNDC]

I completely agree with Nate (and the other defenders). But in thinking about how disappointed I've been in Butler's play so far, how horrendously bad Nick Young's bball iq and how much Flip's rotation hands have been forced by injuries and poor play I wondered why not combine some of the faults? What would happen if N.Young was played as a three (against teams with a worse 3 than 2 only). run butler's basic plays for him and try and minimize his massive defensive faults. it wont produce anything but theoretically it would hurtly slightly more than normal but far less than if he played the 2 defensively. it would buy some lineup flexibility in terms of minute management.

I dont know what else i'd try i mean what are the options? maybe dmac but we need more offense? blatche at the 3 and increase mcgee's minutes but he's not quick enough to stay with most 3s? none of those would really do much. i think i have a newfound appreciation for the offensive importance of jamison and how it covers up some of the deficiencies in much the same way that haywood did on defense.

[fishercob]

I saw a decent chunk of the game, and while many hate the term, I saw it as a "good loss." Phoenix is playing at an extremely high level right now, and the Wiz are injured. The energy and effort were there (unlike the other night), we just came up short against a very good team.

@CCJ re: CB's minutes, I'd think it's pretty obvious Flip is trying to let Caron play his way out of this slump and into somewhat of a comfort zone. Love him or hate him, the Wiz need Caron flowing to make any noise this year. Flip's trying to let him play his way through it.

[closg00]

We will just have to agree to disagree here. If there are only three(?) of us who dare give what for now may be a minority opinion on Flips decisions, then so-be-it. Does anyone here appreciate the irony of Flip doing to McGee what EJ did to Blatche? Blatche is finally playing some solid ball because he finally got some playing time last year, made a commitment to improve during the off-season, and finally got an opportunity contribute because of a new coach and lack of depth at the PF position.

Mgmt. needs to work with McGee and Young, and have the imagination to use their strengths to help us win games. Force other teams to match-up with us instead of being on the defensive with our conservative rotations.

[go'stags]

I would just like to point out that just because PHX plays at a fast pace doesn't necessarily mean McGee would have been effective. All of the PHX big men spend a lot of time on the perimeter, especially at the 3 point line, a pace where JaVale is just not a good defender right now. The one thing he is good at on defense, weak side shot blocking, would have been negated with him on the perimeter. They also set a ton of screens for the ball-handler, with the bigs having to hedge multiple times and recover, in all different sorts of places. Again, another thing JaVale is not good at at this point.

As for offense, with the PHX bigs being very mobile, moreso than any big men we have seen this year, and playing so much on the perimeter, that takes away JaVales biggest offensive threat: beating his man down court for an lob.

The more I think about it, it was probably a poor matchup, at least at this point, for Mcgee to get burn. against the Joel Anthonys or Josh Boones of the league he can play, and thrive even, as he has done so far. But not in games like this.

Flip has given McGee the oppurtunity to cover Shaq for Christ sake! If thats not giving him an oppurtunity then i dont know what is!

[nate33]

McGee CAN'T DEFEND THE PICK AND ROLL TO SAVE HIS LIFE! Playing him against Phoenix is a recipe for disaster! McGee's absence did not cost us the game. He'd have taken minutes from either Haywood, Oberto or Blatche; all three of whom played well.

Flip is doing just fine developing McGee. McGee gets an opportunity in most games. If he plays well, Flip keeps him in. If he doesn't, Flip gets Haywood back in the game. McGee didn't play against Phoenix because he can't guard the pick and roll. He got the quick hook against Indy because Hibbert pwn3d him. He got decent minutes against Cleveland, NJ and Atlanta because he produced fairly well. What exactly is the problem?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Flip just confirmed what I thought regarding Blatche in his post game conference.

He said Blatche made 4 consecutive mental mistakes down the stretch from being tired, and he specifically named the Amare dunk.

He did give Andray credit though for playing well, so he wasn't just bashing him.

Andray was one of the bright spots today, along with Haywood,

Did he say that after the third mental mistake the score was 83-89, with Blatche involved on offense and not making the mistakes that truly killed the team?

Did he say that Haywood missed free throws, Gil and Foye missed jumpers, and that Blatche had just scored points 16 through 20 to get the Wizards within 6?

He subs out guys for mental mistakes? REALLY? How about Caron's and Gil's TERRIBLE rally-killing shots?

This is EXACTLY WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT. PROVING A POINT WITH A YOUNG GUY!

I cannot stand that because Blatche was a bright spot this game but the last thing Saunders does is take him out and put Butler in. Are we punishing mental mistakes or rewarding the main guy making mental mistakes? Is the coach fair and consistent? Is he seeing what he wants to see?

So F'ING what about Blatche? In 7 games this guy has played FAR BETTER THAN EXPECTED.

Flip is wrong making example of hiim in game time. Not bashing hime after the fact doesn't make it better IMO. He's also wrong for not playing McGee and for giving Oberto too much run.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Flip can't needle one guy for a mental mistake when Oberto can't convert close to the basket and at the other end his man scores on the very next play but there's silence from the coach.

If mental mistakes bother the coach, imagine how Gil is feeling constrained to be something he is not.

Mental mistakes are getting Butler more and more minutes each game.

Flip is sending mixed messages and has nerve enough to have a short bench.

[dandridge 10]

:banghead:

McGee CAN'T DEFEND THE PICK AND ROLL TO SAVE HIS LIFE! Playing him against Phoenix is a recipe for disaster! McGee's absence did not cost us the game. He'd have taken minutes from either Haywood, Oberto or Blatche; all three of whom played well.

Flip is doing just fine developing McGee. McGee gets an opportunity in most games. If he plays well, Flip keeps him in. If he doesn't, Flip gets Haywood back in the game. McGee didn't play against Phoenix because he can't guard the pick and roll. He got the quick hook against Indy because Hibbert pwn3d him. He got decent minutes against Cleveland, NJ and Atlanta because he produced fairly well. What exactly is the problem?

Nate, you are exactly right. The people complaining about McGee and Young not get minutes are just making a "grass is greener" argument. We lost so certainly putting McGee and Young in the game would have made a difference, right? It makes perfect sense...if you forget that (1) McGee can't guard the pick and roll to save his life and Nash and Stoudamire would have had him for lunch, (2) McGee would have done nothing to prevent the three point barrage from Phoenix and (3) Young would not have solved our main offensive problem of the night...quick one on one shots.

I listened to most of the Phoenix game on the radio today and just had the chance to watch it taped. One thing that was obvious over the radio and just as obvious watching the game taped is that we lost this game based on two primary reasons. First and foremost, every time we made a run at Phoenix and got a little close, we took horrible shots. The worst culprits were Arenas and Butler. They would simply dribble the ball up the court and just chuck it up without the offense being run at all. Phoenix captialized on those quick shots every time, pushing the ball up the court and scoring before we could get back. This happened over and over again in the 3rd and 4th period. In fact, this has happened over and over again over the last 4-5 years, with 3 different coaches. Second, our perimeter defense was horrible. Guys were out of position all game. Again, this has also been a problem over the last 4-5 years, with three different coaches.

I don't know what Flip has been working on with regard to our perimeter defense, but I do know that our defense in general has improved. Thus, I'm going to give Flip some credit for that and I am hopeful he can fix our perimeter defense. With respect to quick shots, Flip is also trying to break that bad habit. He has said repeatedly over the last few games that the Wizards need to start trusting each other and make the extra pass. Again, I'm hopeful that Flip can finally get through to these guys, but you know the adage: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

In my opinion, today's lost had nothing to do with Flip's rotations. It had everything to do with the ball sticking to player's hands and the failure of this team to defend the three point shot, and there is nothing in Young or McGee's game that would have alleviated these problems. If anything, having those guys in the game would have made it worse.

But, hey, the grass is always greener on the other side...if Flip just played McGee and Young, we probably would have won the game.

[go'stags]

He also said something about Blatche not being able to play huge [ie over 40] minutes because of his conditioning. And don't act like he called Blatche out, someone asked a question and that was his answer. It would have been foolish to say anything about any other player in that situation. More likley, Flip knows what most of us know: its early and he is still figuring his roster out, toying with it, seeing what works, and letting key players play more to get comfortable for later in the season, when we will need them.

He is doing all of that while still playing Blatche a lot, more than he has ever played, getting McGee sufficient minutes, and giving Young all the opportunities in the world.

About Oberto not being able to score outside of a layup, that has nothing to do with mental mistakes. Coach K has always said he can tolerate physical mistakes, not mental.

Again, Flip admitted the reason Blatche even made the mistakes in the first place was because he was tired, not because he isn;t good. He even said Blatche played well!

He knows Blatche has arguably been our best player this year, but he also knows that if we are going to have any success this year Butler and Arenas are going to be a huge part of it, so he is letting them play through some mistakes so they can get comfortable. All while still giving the youngins opportunities. The more I think about it, I think Flip is doing a damn GREAT job, especially considering 2 starters are currently injured.

7 games people, 7 games.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

He also said something about Blatche not being able to play huge [ie over 40] minutes because of his conditioning. And don't act like he called Blatche out, someone asked a question and that was his answer. It would have been foolish to say anything about any other player in that situation. More likley, Flip knows what most of us know: its early and he is still figuring his roster out, toying with it, seeing what works, and letting key players play more to get comfortable for later in the season, when we will need them.

He is doing all of that while still playing Blatche a lot, more than he has ever played, getting McGee sufficient minutes, and giving Young all the opportunities in the world.

About Oberto not being able to score outside of a layup, that has nothing to do with mental mistakes. Coach K has always said he can tolerate physical mistakes, not mental.

Again, Flip admitted the reason Blatche even made the mistakes in the first place was because he was tired, not because he isn;t good. He even said Blatche played well!

He knows Blatche has arguably been our best player this year, but he also knows that if we are going to have any success this year Butler and Arenas are going to be a huge part of it, so he is letting them play through some mistakes so they can get comfortable. All while still giving the youngins opportunities. The more I think about it, I think Flip is doing a damn GREAT job, especially considering 2 starters are currently injured.

7 games people, 7 games.

Okay, we'll see in 20 games if he's doing the exact same thing he's doing right now how we both feel, stags.

Arenas, Butler, and Haywood are healthy and Blatche is playing well. The team has scored less than 90 four games in a row. They have accused players of lacking effort. He has benched young guys. The record is 2-5. I think Flip's done a much poorer job than I would have imagined. The only guy not playing that played when they beat Dallas is Mike Miller. Due to the way they are losing I am BITTERLY disappointed.

[dandridge 10]

Flip just confirmed what I thought regarding Blatche in his post game conference.

He said Blatche made 4 consecutive mental mistakes down the stretch from being tired, and he specifically named the Amare dunk.

He did give Andray credit though for playing well, so he wasn't just bashing him.

Andray was one of the bright spots today, along with Haywood,

Did he say that after the third mental mistake the score was 83-89, with Blatche involved on offense and not making the mistakes that truly killed the team?

Did he say that Haywood missed free throws, Gil and Foye missed jumpers, and that Blatche had just scored points 16 through 20 to get the Wizards within 6?

He subs out guys for mental mistakes? REALLY? How about Caron's and Gil's TERRIBLE rally-killing shots?

This is EXACTLY WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT. PROVING A POINT WITH A YOUNG GUY!

I cannot stand that because Blatche was a bright spot this game but the last thing Saunders does is take him out and put Butler in. Are we punishing mental mistakes or rewarding the main guy making mental mistakes? Is the coach fair and consistent? Is he seeing what he wants to see?

So F'ING what about Blatche? In 7 games this guy has played FAR BETTER THAN EXPECTED.

Flip is wrong making example of hiim in game time. Not bashing hime after the fact doesn't make it better IMO. He's also wrong for not playing McGee and for giving Oberto too much run.

CCJ, I didn't hear Flip's press conference, but according to go stags, Flip said that he pulled Blatche because he thought he was tired (which lead to mental mistakes), not because of mental mistakes. To me, there is a big difference. Also, it does not appear Flip was bashing Blatche as he commended him for a good game. I think you are grasping at straws to make your argument that Flip just doesn't like young guys. Flip has been playing Blatche plenty of minutes because he has deserved them so far this year. Dom even got some run tonight. Young and McGee haven't played because they have not yet earned their minutes.

I do agree that Gil and Caron took horrible rally stopping shots, and that is the primary reason we lost. However, I can understand a coach not yanking his two best players in crunch time, when both have a history of pulling through. Its a catch 22 for Flip. Yank Gil and Caron and get criticized for losing because he did not play his two best players, or keep them in there and get criticized for losing for taking quick shots.

[go'stags]

Well, I don't see how he has "benched" young guys, but thats fair enough.

We can check back again at 20-25 games.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, I didn't hear Flip's press conference, but according to go stags, Flip said that he pulled Blatche because he thought he was tired (which lead to mental mistakes), not because of mental mistakes. To me, there is a big difference. Also, it does not appear Flip was bashing Blatche as he commended him for a good game. I think you are grasping at straws to make your argument that Flip just doesn't like young guys. Flip has been playing Blatche plenty of minutes because he has deserved them so far this year. Dom even got some run tonight. Young and McGee haven't played because they have not yet earned their minutes.

I do agree that Gil and Caron took horrible rally stopping shots, and that is the primary reason we lost. However, I can understand a coach not yanking his two best players in crunch time, when both have a history of pulling through. Its a catch 22 for Flip. Yank Gil and Caron and get criticized for losing because he did not play his two best players, or keep them in there and get criticized for losing for taking quick shots.

dandridge, this post has given me at least something worth considering. Making a mistake because he was tired isn't as much punitive. Putting Blatche back in the game before the buzzer, even with 30 seconds left in the decided game loss, would have been a good thing IMO.

I don't think Flip dislikes young guys. I think in another catch 22 he dislikes mistakes made by young guys. How can young guys not make mistakes? By playing.

I thought the best thing Saunders did tonight was get McGuire in the game early in the fourth. McGuire was on the court and didn't hurt the team at all. I bet Flip does play him more to all of our relief/satisfaction instead of riding out bad veteran play.

Last, you're absolutely right that Gil and Caron have a track record of pulling it out. I can remember Daniels, Songaila, and even Stevenson playing through slumps to be very productive. I think Gil and Caron both will get it going, sooner than later. Yet, I'm not thinking this system is right for Caron.

Flip doesn't have to be so reluctant to bench Caron, IMO. We'll see.

[Dat2U]

CCJ, I think your being a bit too harsh on Flip. Have I loved everything he's done thus far? Absolutely not, but lets cut him some slack, its not like he's in an ideal situation.

You've got a roster that's 8 quality NBA players deep with two extremely raw projects on the bench and five scrubs that might be out of the NBA in another year or two.

Now take away two of those 8 quality NBA players. He's forced to play the likes DeSuck and MJames b/c there's no depth. Especially in backcourt with Miller out. Young doesn't deserve any time. I said during Young's rookie year, Eddie Jordan may play him b/c of his ability to create a shot but no other real coach would ever give him minutes based on his low IQ and inability to bring anything else to the table. Very little has changed since then. I have no problem with Flip keeping Young glued to the bench.

I'd agree about starting Blatche over Oberto but I respect the fact Flip's trying to keep things simple for Blatche by not changing the role that was originally planned for him, to be the first big off the bench. In two weeks it shouldn't be an issue as Oberto will go back to being Wood's backup and Jamison comes back.

Regarding McGee, yes he should have seen some extended run against Phx, but I've been relatively happy with his usage of Javale. At this stage, until Javale begins to make an impact defensively, we can probably only afford to play him 10-15 minutes a night. As long as he's getting some minutes I'm happy. If I start seeing alot of DNPs from Javale, then I'll have problem.

Bottom line. Your expecting Flip to turn lemons into lemonade and its only 7 games into the season.

I have no problem criticizing the players & EG 7 games into the season b/c outside of basically Miller, Foye & Oberto everyone else has been here for a while. But Flip, well I'm willing to give Flip some time, and hopefully he'll get better. But right now, there are bigger fish to fry (Yes, Ernie, I'm looking at you!).

[Pradamaster]

Flip just confirmed what I thought regarding Blatche in his post game conference.

He said Blatche made 4 consecutive mental mistakes down the stretch from being tired, and he specifically named the Amare dunk.

He did give Andray credit though for playing well, so he wasn't just bashing him.

Andray was one of the bright spots today, along with Haywood,

Did he say that after the third mental mistake the score was 83-89, with Blatche involved on offense and not making the mistakes that truly killed the team?

Did he say that Haywood missed free throws, Gil and Foye missed jumpers, and that Blatche had just scored points 16 through 20 to get the Wizards within 6?

He subs out guys for mental mistakes? REALLY? How about Caron's and Gil's TERRIBLE rally-killing shots?

This is EXACTLY WHAT THIS THREAD IS ALL ABOUT. PROVING A POINT WITH A YOUNG GUY!

I cannot stand that because Blatche was a bright spot this game but the last thing Saunders does is take him out and put Butler in. Are we punishing mental mistakes or rewarding the main guy making mental mistakes? Is the coach fair and consistent? Is he seeing what he wants to see?

So F'ING what about Blatche? In 7 games this guy has played FAR BETTER THAN EXPECTED.

Flip is wrong making example of hiim in game time. Not bashing hime after the fact doesn't make it better IMO. He's also wrong for not playing McGee and for giving Oberto too much run.

CCJ, I didn't hear Flip's press conference, but according to go stags, Flip said that he pulled Blatche because he thought he was tired (which lead to mental mistakes), not because of mental mistakes. To me, there is a big difference. Also, it does not appear Flip was bashing Blatche as he commended him for a good game. I think you are grasping at straws to make your argument that Flip just doesn't like young guys. Flip has been playing Blatche plenty of minutes because he has deserved them so far this year. Dom even got some run tonight. Young and McGee haven't played because they have not yet earned their minutes.

I do agree that Gil and Caron took horrible rally stopping shots, and that is the primary reason we lost. However, I can understand a coach not yanking his two best players in crunch time, when both have a history of pulling through. Its a catch 22 for Flip. Yank Gil and Caron and get criticized for losing because he did not play his two best players, or keep them in there and get criticized for losing for taking quick shots.

To set the record straight here:

When asked about why Blatche got taken out, Flip said it was because he was exhausted, having played basically the entire half. When Blatche was asked about being taken out, he confirmed that he was exhausted and that it was causing him to make mental mistakes.

Can y'all please move on?