Is it time to flip flop on Flip?

[hands11]

nate, Blatche should be playing more than 28 and Butler should be playing less than 35.

If Oberto and Stevenson are both averaging 19 minutes, there's no way in hell McGee should be getting 8 minutes and McGuire 3.

McGee should take a few of Oberto's minutes? Damn right he should! If he got just 8 of them, Javale would double his own minutes and I'd be happy. Javale should be on the court when Foye is in the game either at SG or PG because Randy gets him the ball. Gil hasn't as far as I've seen.

DMac playing about 10 and Stevenson 11 or 12 would make sense to me. DMac could also get 2 or 3 of Caron's minutes, particularly with Miller out.

Flip has no right to call out effort without looking in the mirror first.

This is along my thinking also. But as usual, we never know the long term picture so we are evaluating things in a bubble. Maybe they want to give DS first crack as to hopefully get him up in trade value since he missed so much of last year. But yeah, I rather see DMAC in there. He has the hops and energy that a young man brings. Much better che out there with DMAC then the terrorist.

But McGee defiantly chances the energy of a game. As flat as we have looked, I would think we would have used him a little more. His defense actually looks a lot better then last year. He is using leverage to defend the post. And yes, Foye looks better when he has McGee to toss it to. But McGee does need to bring more in rebounds and blocks.

And lastly.. Someone start a search and rescue for CB. .6 assists per game. That is career low for him. He made his name as 45-46% shooter who got 6-7 boards and 4-5 assists. Well his shooting it under 40% and his assists are under 1 per game. His rebounds are up 1 per game.. big deal. Bring back the old CB

Flip did good things in over the summer and in a few games but I not feeling it from him every game. That said, he get a bit more time. At times he has seemed very EJ. I was screaming for him to get Td up just like I used to want EJ to do it.

It's clear this team has problems. No MM is killing us because he played like CB used to. The combo is missing MM and AJ is just to much because they aren't used to counting on AB to score so much.

This is a team still in transition. It is built to give GA, CB and AJ is final chance to make a run, if they don't, pieces will start getting traded.

[dobrojim]

over in the game thread I suggested that playing N1 a little against PHO
much bigger 2-3s might have been helpful.

I neglected to consider that DMac also could have filled that role

but in answer to the thread title, it's nowhere near time to flip/flop on
Flip. Sorry CCJ, you know I love you man.

in another thread it was also pointed out we've played a really hard schedule
so far. I'd add to that we've gotten seriously hosed by the zebras in a couple/3
games as well. Over time, things are very likely to improve. Getting back AJ/MM
will probably help out a whole bunch. Caron is slumping/pressing as is Gil. They're
still trying to learn the new system and clearly are struggling with it. One night
it's TOs, the next game it's hoisting shots. Well that follows when you think about
it. A missed shot is usually better than a TO so there's a little progress there.

7 day Dray has been a beast. We're going to be OK.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

dobrojim, I sound the alarm, hoping for the best.

All I want is for Flip to not discriminate--anybody that can play and help the team win should be playing.

The system isn't more important than the win.

I'll be Flip's biggest fan when the team wins 49 games--what his teams usually do.

All I'm doing is being as honest as I can about how I feel. I don't think Flip's getting the most out of the personnel. It's my opinion and I respect that the majority think I'm jumping the gun, being too harsh with Flip, and that things will be okay.

I respect that.

The good things that are happening: 7 day has been the real deal. The defense has been stressed. The coach really has some specific requirements and he's been emphatic about knowing what to do. (Same thing I criticized him for, I see could be a good thing. I just say bench the vets when they mess up, too.) The team played great prior to the "hosing" in Cleveland. Loved the wins over Dallas and New Jersey. THE TEAM HAS TALENT (even if there are holes in the roster and the team's beseiged with injuries).

I'll try to stress the positives more.

[LyricalRico]

The system isn't more important than the win.

Not necessarily. An old saying comes to mind - give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to fish and he'll feed himself for a lifetime. Flip could micromanage the game on a possession-by-posession basis and try to manufacture wins. But is that the best thing for the long run? I just think that getting his system entrenched in this team's culture is going to be much more beneficial in the longterm than an extra win here or there during a clear transition period.

It's different with a guy like EJ who's system still hasn't proven that it can win consistently in the NBA. But Flip has a proven track record of success. I would much rather he stick with his program and endure a few extra losses early on if it'll mean that this team eventually becomes a well-oiled machine for years to come.

[DCZards]

Not necessarily. An old saying comes to mind - give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, but teach a man to fish and he'll feed himself for a lifetime. Flip could micromanage the game on a possession-by-posession basis and try to manufacture wins. But is that the best thing for the long run? I just think that getting his system entrenched in this team's culture is going to be much more beneficial in the longterm than an extra win here or there during a clear transition period.
It's different with a guy like EJ who's system still hasn't proven that it can win consistently in the NBA. But Flip has a proven track record of success. I would much rather he stick with his program and endure a few extra losses early on if it'll mean that this team eventually becomes a well-oiled machine for years to come.

Excuse me if I get a little chocked up when I say this, but I absolutely agree with Lyrical on the long-term benefits of giving Flip's system a chance to take hold.

Lyrical and DCZ agreeing on coaching...must be the dawn of a new era...or the end of civilization as we know it.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Bump.

Albert Einstein is credited with saying "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

You guys still like Flip and his system and his rotations?

I've given it two-and-a-half months and another 35 games, and guess what? I'm more convinced than ever that Flip Saunders has not made the most of the roster. Let me expound upon what I first posted November 8, 2009:

FACTS

1. Flip plays Butler big minutes no matter what.
2. Flip plays Jamison big minutes at PF no matter what.
3. Flip has cut the minutes of Andray Blatche drastically, after Blatche had a great summer
4. Flip has cut the minutes of Nick Young, almost entirely.
5. Flip has cut the minutes of Javale McGee, almost entirely.
6. Flip has cut the minutes of Dominic McGuire entirely.
7. DeShawn Stevenson is playing twice as much as Nick Young.
8. Fabricio Oberto is playing all the minutes that McGuire or McGee could be playing.
9. Playing the veteran roster last game, the Wizards scored 88 points and lost at home by 20+.
10. Playing the same veteran roster this game, the Wizards scored 78 points (Butler 43 minutes) and lost by 15.

OPINION

Flip Saunders has been EXTREMELY BAD this season. If I had to give him a grade as coach his grade would be D-.He has lashed out at McGee and taken all his minutes. He has rewarded a defiant Butler with more minutes. He lost games early relying on Gil when Gil coudn't go. He cut Blatche's minutes when that kid was playing his heart out. He's given DeShawn Stevenson twice the minutes as Nick Young. Why? He's not played McGuire at all, when all that kid does is play with energy. Same for McGee. Flip has played favorites. But the real reasons for his grade is HIS TEAM DOES NOT PLAY HARD AND THEY DO NOT COMPETE. He DOES NOT GET EVERYBODY INVOLVED. He DOES NOT COACH ENERGY he COACHES CHUCKERS AND JUMPSHOOTERS. Yes, I'm shouting now, because this is exactly what I thought two months ago.

And FOR ALL OF YOU WHO SAY IT'S THE PLAYERS .... why the hell does Butler keep getting the minutes he does? Why can't Flip figure out you can't have Butler and Jamison at Fs and win anything consistently? This coach is killing the young players. Another, more appropriate coach, could have this team with 6 or 7 more wins. Dat2U and others may disagree with me. Fine.

In my book, Flip's been horrifically bad.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

There is absolutely no reason this team with the scorers and height that it has is losing the way it does. Some games you score more point sitting Butler, Jamison, and even Haywood down. A good coach would figure that out. Flip Saunders has a great reputation, but this season he's been very sub-par.

Lastly, what's the point of losing playing Butler and Jamison big minutes again THIS season?

This is Tapscott and Jordan all over again, only worse, because the young guys aren't even playing at all now.

[closg00]

+1 CCJ, there is no excuse for this horrific offensive output. Flip has no plan B for when his vet-starters are failing. I challenge anyone to point-out how what Flip is doing is any different from what EJ & Tankscott were doing.

[closg00]

Here Flip, learn from other coaches.

Since an injury forced Andrei Kirilenko into the starting lineup on Jan. 11, the Jazz are 5-1.

Utah coach Jerry Sloan had been playing Kirilenko with the second unit in hopes of providing a punch off the bench.

"I don't think it's a mental thing or other things. I think it's more the defense of the team. Team-wise, we're playing better," Kirilenko said.

"We struggled a little bit before the new year. But after we concentrate on our defensive stuff a little bit more, we started playing better. That's been one of the keys for success. Not me personally, but the team."

In Utah's five most recent wins, opponents average only 92.2 points.

"A.K.'s length bothers people defensively," said Deron Williams. "He gives us an added shot-blocker out there to start the game, which helps."

"No question [his size] makes a big difference. He's able to block shots and play defense. I probably should have had him [starting] all along, if I'd been smart enough," Sloan said.

Save your breath, we know that McGee is still learning, but the point here is obvious. Ditch the failing small-ball, move AJ to SF and pair Wood with McGee or Blatche. Flip is failing and refuses to stop beating his head against the wall.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Let's accept for a moment the notion that Eddie Jordan was an incompetent moron. Fine, he was fired and replaced by Tapscott. Tap had previously been in charge of player development, but then he took over and immediately began making the same kinds of lineup decisions. So, okay -- Tapscott's a moron too. He clearly didn't know player development or coaching, and he was a company man anyway, already brainwashed by the previous moron and the holdover moron assistants. Man, these poor, poor young Wizards players saddled with two consecutive morons.

So the Wizards bring in Flip Saunders from outside the organization. Who brought with him his own coaches -- also from outside the organization. Flip's been successful at two other NBA stops, and presided over the development of Kevin Garnett. Finally, the LIBERATION of these Wizards youngsters. Flip surely would have the savvy, experience and acumen to recognize this deep well of young talent that has been so successfully suppressed by the preceding morons.

Except, after working extensively with these young players -- during the summer, in training camp, throughout the season -- Flip is making lineup decisions strikingly similar to those previously made by those morons Tapscott and Jordan. Man oh man, why must these Wizards youngsters keep being afflicted with moron coaches?

Or, maybe these coaches aren't morons. Maybe they've all seen something similar. Maybe these youngsters are getting their asses handed to them by Butler, Jamison and Haywood every time they practice or scrimmage. Maybe these youngsters don't work hard, don't take the game seriously, don't give any consistent signs of giving a crap one way or the other about whether the team wins or loses.

Maybe the coaches notice that the scoreboard goes in the wrong direction when those youngsters enter the game. Maybe those coaches decided that they'd rather lose with veterans who give an effort than lose with young players who don't care enough to show up on time, study the scouting reports, learn the playbook, work hard in practice, play hard in the games.

Maybe the coaches each reached the conclusion that there's no point GIFTING the youngsters with playing time when they won't do even the minimum stuff expected of NBA players.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach and start looking at those players.

[Ruzious]

Bump.

Albert Einstein is credited with saying "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result."

I think the conclusion is that we're the ones who are insane... when we see the young players playing with no passion and intelligence year in and year out, and yet we still believe in them.

[nate33]

Let's accept for a moment the notion that Eddie Jordan was an incompetent moron. Fine, he was fired and replaced by Tapscott. Tap had previously been in charge of player development, but then he took over and immediately began making the same kinds of lineup decisions. So, okay -- Tapscott's a moron too. He clearly didn't know player development or coaching, and he was a company man anyway, already brainwashed by the previous moron and the holdover moron assistants. Man, these poor, poor young Wizards players saddled with two consecutive morons.

So the Wizards bring in Flip Saunders from outside the organization. Who brought with him his own coaches -- also from outside the organization. Flip's been successful at two other NBA stops, and presided over the development of Kevin Garnett. Finally, the LIBERATION of these Wizards youngsters. Flip surely would have the savvy, experience and acumen to recognize this deep well of young talent that has been so successfully suppressed by the preceding morons.

Except, after working extensively with these young players -- during the summer, in training camp, throughout the season -- Flip is making lineup decisions strikingly similar to those previously made by those morons Tapscott and Jordan. Man oh man, why must these Wizards youngsters keep being afflicted with moron coaches?

Or, maybe these coaches aren't morons. Maybe they've all seen something similar. Maybe these youngsters are getting their asses handed to them by Butler, Jamison and Haywood every time they practice or scrimmage. Maybe these youngsters don't work hard, don't take the game seriously, don't give any consistent signs of giving a crap one way or the other about whether the team wins or loses.

Maybe the coaches notice that the scoreboard goes in the wrong direction when those youngsters enter the game. Maybe those coaches decided that they'd rather lose with veterans who give an effort than lose with young players who don't care enough to show up on time, study the scouting reports, learn the playbook, work hard in practice, play hard in the games.

Maybe the coaches each reached the conclusion that there's no point GIFTING the youngsters with playing time when they won't do even the minimum stuff expected of NBA players.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach and start looking at those players.

I find the logic in this post irrefutable. It's the players, not the coach. The only part where I disagree with Flip is where it relates to Young. Young is better than Stevenson at every aspect of the game and his on/off numbers have been significnatly better for two years now. Young gives us a better chance at winning than Stevenson. I'm not saying Young is great. Just that he's okay and a better player than DeSuck.

[willbcocks]

Desuck has not looked THAT bad lately. I mean, he's not looking good--that's a given. But he fights through screens, moves the ball on offense, and has stuck a shot or two. He is playing scrappy, which is basically all I want from this team for the rest of the year. Dump everyone, stock some picks, play scrappy, rebuild scrappy, pray for divine intervention.

Nick young is Jarvis Hayes, Knucklehead Edition. I supported his drafting during the first two years, but now he's just filler in any trade we make.

[LyricalRico]

Let's accept for a moment the notion that Eddie Jordan was an incompetent moron.

And that's true even if you don't blame him for young players lack of development. But I digress..

Maybe these youngsters are getting their asses handed to them by Butler, Jamison and Haywood every time they practice or scrimmage. Maybe these youngsters don't work hard, don't take the game seriously, don't give any consistent signs of giving a crap one way or the other about whether the team wins or loses.

Maybe the coaches notice that the scoreboard goes in the wrong direction when those youngsters enter the game. Maybe those coaches decided that they'd rather lose with veterans who give an effort than lose with young players who don't care enough to show up on time, study the scouting reports, learn the playbook, work hard in practice, play hard in the games.

Maybe the coaches each reached the conclusion that there's no point GIFTING the youngsters with playing time when they won't do even the minimum stuff expected of NBA players.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach and start looking at those players.

Great points. At this point, I'm not married to any of the young guys on the roster. If we can get picks for them, I say we do it and move on with some guys that Flip can use.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Let's accept for a moment the notion that Eddie Jordan was an incompetent moron. Fine, he was fired and replaced by Tapscott. Tap had previously been in charge of player development, but then he took over and immediately began making the same kinds of lineup decisions. So, okay -- Tapscott's a moron too. He clearly didn't know player development or coaching, and he was a company man anyway, already brainwashed by the previous moron and the holdover moron assistants. Man, these poor, poor young Wizards players saddled with two consecutive morons.

So the Wizards bring in Flip Saunders from outside the organization. Who brought with him his own coaches -- also from outside the organization. Flip's been successful at two other NBA stops, and presided over the development of Kevin Garnett. Finally, the LIBERATION of these Wizards youngsters. Flip surely would have the savvy, experience and acumen to recognize this deep well of young talent that has been so successfully suppressed by the preceding morons.

Except, after working extensively with these young players -- during the summer, in training camp, throughout the season -- Flip is making lineup decisions strikingly similar to those previously made by those morons Tapscott and Jordan. Man oh man, why must these Wizards youngsters keep being afflicted with moron coaches?

Or, maybe these coaches aren't morons. Maybe they've all seen something similar. Maybe these youngsters are getting their asses handed to them by Butler, Jamison and Haywood every time they practice or scrimmage. Maybe these youngsters don't work hard, don't take the game seriously, don't give any consistent signs of giving a crap one way or the other about whether the team wins or loses.

Maybe the coaches notice that the scoreboard goes in the wrong direction when those youngsters enter the game. Maybe those coaches decided that they'd rather lose with veterans who give an effort than lose with young players who don't care enough to show up on time, study the scouting reports, learn the playbook, work hard in practice, play hard in the games.

Maybe the coaches each reached the conclusion that there's no point GIFTING the youngsters with playing time when they won't do even the minimum stuff expected of NBA players.

Maybe it's time to stop blaming the coach and start looking at those players.

TSW after years posting here I've come to the conclusion that former basketball players don't possess a supernatural gift to be great judges of talent and therefore make great GMs. The top GMs right now didn't all play the game.

As for Jordan, Tapscott, and Flip Saunders I'm not going to use the word morons; but I'm not going to say they've been right, either. They have not concluded the same things, either.

Jordan experienced losses at the beginning of the year with almost every team. He lost 11 straight his final season starting McGee over Blatche, but with no Haywood or Arenas, and also with no G playing well. McGee started for Jordan, TSW. Go back and check. McGee started his first games as a rookie--back when Chris Paul said he's got Dwight Howard talent.

After Jordan was fired, Ed Tapscott started Blatche over McGee. Blatche couldn't see the light of day off the bench for Jordan, but Tapscott preferred him over McGee in the season there was no Haywood.

This season, Blatche, whe has 3 more NBA seasons under his belt showed he EARNED extra minutes and he began the season playing exceptionally well in Jamison's absense. McGee was placed behind Blatche, and also behind Haywood. I have no problem with that. But the STARTER at the beginning of the season was Fabricio Oberto.

TSW for all this defending previous coaches, please compare preseason stats for McGee vs Oberto. What you will find is McGee did more scoring, more rebounding, several times more shotblocking and MUCH LESS FOULING than Oberto. Oberto started the season fouling out of many games. I'm not sure why, other than he's a veteran he displaced McGee from the lineup.

My response to you concluding all three coaches came to the same conclusion is all three have recourds that speak to their effectiveness. In the case of the here and now, Flip has played veterans and lost the same way consistently.

When you say the scoreboard has gone the other way with McGee in the game I can say McGee's NEVER been in the game with Haywood. He's been in their with Blatche a few times. HE ONLY PLAYED ONE WEEK OF BALL with consistent minutes. 11/21-11/28. He played exceptionally well, and he's been benched since.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... eja01.html

Flip hasn't tried some things that he could have. McGee is not being used correctly IMO. I think he's had no opportunity to prove what he might do. McGee just needs minutes.

PREDICTION: If McGee got 20 minutes a game, he'd do things Haywood can't do and would become a very valuable player.

I will end by saying that TSW and others IMO give credit to authority figures and older guys, but tend to discount ability and athleticism and untapped skills. I see things in players time and time agains only to be told I don't know what I'm talking about, when I'm pretty sure I do.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

On the subject of practice habits, why should a 2nd year player practice like a 8th or 11th year player?

(Let me preface the next comments by humbling myself--I've been considered a lot of things not so nice myself ....) I think McGee's a weird kid. Looks weird. Probably acts weird. Looks more inclined to play XBox 360 and study cheat codes of some video game than to properly scout an opponent or to really know the playbook. He does appear to go for the spectacular block instead of doing the fundamentally sound play. Doesn't block out right and doesn't execute with precision what Flip wants. I'll mention how I feel about this later ....

If there's something else about the kid that I don't know (teams fine players and players might fail a drug test but be protected by the union from that becoming public) THEN I could understand him being glued to the bench. I could understand if he's a total slacker or a bad seed.

However, my perception is that it takes practice and actual game experience to learn by doing. There's no way with inconsistent minutes and constant scrutiny and criticism and demands for percision that a young, creative player can grow. If you have a Picasso-type painter, you don't hand him a roller and a bucket of white paint and point him toward a wall and say even and straight.

I didn't even want McGee to be the pick. I'd seen him in person when Fazekas was injured and didn't even notice him in the game. (Sessions stood out) McGee's stats revealed a bad defender who could block shots and who scored a bit, but not prolifically. A big man project who would take a while. However, after he was drafted I saw length, speed, and leaping ability--as well as the fact both his parents were professional players (Europe and WNBA). Saw that Javale had pretty good handles for a player his height.

I'll end this rant by saying Grunfeld saw talent, but that talent's being serious set back by Saunders. Playing 15 minutes a game over 75 games one season and coming back to RARELY even getting on the court for this sorry assed team is just not justifiable.

[closg00]

^^^^
TSW's post is easily refuted, the proof is in the results then and now. Our record is what it is playing AJ & Caron 39+ minutes a night, at the positions that they play. Last night Caron played 43 minutes, 5 more than any Clipper.

When there is data from the results of moving AJ to SF while playing AB/McGee at PF and starting Young (for a few games), then we can talk.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

This season the +/- stats are all over the place. I really don't know what to make of them.

http://www.82games.com/0910/0910WAS.HTM

--Butler was horrible at the beginning of the season, and folks can point to many games he's been a selfish or ineffective player; however, he's currently at +2.9 per 48.

--Stevenson has one of the lowest PERs in the history of the NBA, but some how he's +2.4

--Foye appears to be a decent scorer with an average PER but he's -8.6.

--Boykins is -7.1

--McGee is -4.7

--Blatche is -7.2.

--Oberto has a horrific PER but is only -2.3

The two guys who without a doubt have been really good:

--Miller is +12.5

--Haywood is +12.6

[LyricalRico]

^ It doesn't matter how high a guy's PER is if he can't rebound or stop anybody defensively. You put a Blatche+McGee frontcourt out there and the other team is going to get loads of second shot opportunities. You put a Boykins+Foye backcourt out there and teams will either blow by them or shoot over them.

These guys may be decent scorers and gifted athletically, but if they can't rebound or defend it's not going to matter.

[nate33]

That on/off data is pretty old (it's from 1/12/10). Foye was terrible as a backup, but the data misses most of his time as a starter. My guess is that his on/off differential will improve substantially when the updated numbers come out.

And you can ignore the numbers for Oberto and McGee. The sample sizes are miniscule. Though if you combine McGee's numbers from last year and this year, you get a larger sample size which makes TSW's point.

Most of Blatche's negative on/off impact takes place when he is at center. He is -15.5 per 48 at center. He is just -4.4 per 48 at PF. If you look deeper into the numbers, you can see that his PF numbers take a hit when he plays alongside Oberto (who is -8.8 at center). My guess is that Blatche is close to even when he plays PF next to Haywood. He just suffers when he has to be the only true big man on the court.

I'm certain CCJ's retort will be that McGee would get the same benefit if he plays alongside Haywood. I don't think that's fair because I don't think he can handle the PF position offensively. McGee isn't anywhere near as skilled as Blatche with respect to shooting, passing and ball-handling. He'd wreck the entire offensive flow if he played PF.