GRODBoard 2020 (second to last update!)

[Catchall]

Can you link me to some good Bolmaro tape? Haven't been able to find any. And if he is a 6'8 Rubio, why isn't he a pro yet?

These are highlights just posted...

Watch on YouTube

;feature=emb_logo

This is some analysis of this ball skills...

Watch on YouTube

Highlights definitely look juicy, but his dribble is high and wide when driving. He's gonna get stripped a lot at the next level.

And if Avdija is 6'8/6'9, Bolmaro is definitely a lot closer to 6'6.

His handle is pretty tight and pretty versatile. If a defender really gets into him, it could cause some issues. However, I don't see him having a problem running an offense. His ball control and shiftiness are both better than Gordon Hayward, for example, and I see him working off screens like Hayward and Rubio did in Utah.

He's probably 6'6.5" or 6'7" without shoes. Again, think of a lighter, shiftier version of Cedi Osman.

[getrichordie]

These are highlights just posted...

Watch on YouTube

;feature=emb_logo

This is some analysis of this ball skills...

Watch on YouTube

Highlights definitely look juicy, but his dribble is high and wide when driving. He's gonna get stripped a lot at the next level.

And if Avdija is 6'8/6'9, Bolmaro is definitely a lot closer to 6'6.

His handle is pretty tight and pretty versatile. If a defender really gets into him, it could cause some issues. However, I don't see him having a problem running an offense. His ball control and shiftiness are both better than Gordon Hayward, for example, and I see him working off screens like Hayward and Rubio did in Utah.

He's probably 6'6.5" or 6'7" without shoes. Again, think of a lighter, shiftier version of Cedi Osman.

His handle is tight for the most part (just got done watching more) but he gets loose with it at times. What scares me is his shooting %s. Not a great FT shooter. Shootings in the low-mid 60s. His ASTs per 36 aren't great (around 5) and his turnovers are around ~3.5. I see the potential, but he he's a long-term project, IMO. Not a fan of throwing guys like that into the NBA as it doesn't turn out well a lot of times (Cabcolo, etc.).

[Catchall]

Highlights definitely look juicy, but his dribble is high and wide when driving. He's gonna get stripped a lot at the next level.

And if Avdija is 6'8/6'9, Bolmaro is definitely a lot closer to 6'6.

His handle is pretty tight and pretty versatile. If a defender really gets into him, it could cause some issues. However, I don't see him having a problem running an offense. His ball control and shiftiness are both better than Gordon Hayward, for example, and I see him working off screens like Hayward and Rubio did in Utah.

He's probably 6'6.5" or 6'7" without shoes. Again, think of a lighter, shiftier version of Cedi Osman.

His handle is tight for the most part (just got done watching more) but he gets loose with it at times. What scares me is his shooting %s. Not a great FT shooter. Shootings in the low-mid 60s. His ASTs per 36 aren't great (around 5) and his turnovers are around ~3.5. I see the potential, but he he's a long-term project, IMO. Not a fan of throwing guys like that into the NBA as it doesn't turn out well a lot of times (Cabcolo, etc.).

Yeah, he's 19. Check back when he's 22, lists at 6'8" / 210 lbs, has worked on his body, and has worked out his shooting. Players that young don't usually break through until their 3rd year. What I also like about him is his hustle and competitiveness. He looks like a guy who wants to be good.

[getrichordie]

Added rankings for my top 4 tiers.

[a-French-Fan]

Last updated on 05/13/20

[color=#0000FF]tier 1
—
01a. Killian Hayes
01b. Anthony Edwards

tier 2
—

tier 4
—
11. Joel Ayayi
12a. Cole Anthony
12b. Kira Lewis Jr.
13. Jalen Smith
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Tyrese Maxey
16a. R.J. Hampton
16b. Theo Maledon


* = declared

Killian Hayes 1st ... as a french fan, why not

But so much difference between Hayes and Maledon is hard to understand for me. Off course, Hayes, by his father's culture does have US mentality (like TP 9 19 years ago). Off course, joining Germany, Hayes sharply increased all figures that year. Off course, we did not see any improvement in Maledon's game this year.

But ...
Two years ago, aged of 16, Hayes dominated U21 french championship (most of french pro start in this championship, teams depend of pro teams), and Malédon was under him, but the next after him. Last year, Maledon was in a top eurocup team, in the top french team, and had a true role in that team, whereas Hayes was bench in a weak team. So maybe the context was better for Malédon. For an under 18 in his fisrt pro year, it was really great. Other point guards were Demarcus Nelson (who left ASVEL for Bayern) and Mantas Kalnietis (Lithunia's NT PG). So it was not so easy to get minutes.
Then Hayes left France for Germany, and had opportunity to show his abilities in Eurocup. But Maledon did it year before, and in a top team of the competition. Hayes with so much TO's with ASVEL, would'not had played as much he played in Ulm this year.
For Maledon, I hoped him to take more responsabilities with Euroleague. For few reasons it didn't happen. First at all, an injury (shoulder). Secondly, during the summer we could think ASVEL would play with 3 PGs in the roster, but Strazel became pro and ASVEL played with 4 point guards. So it became hard to show more than last year with such a sharing of minutes (with Jordan Taylor, Strazel and ... Antoine Diot our former "next TP", a better prospect than Batum for the generation 88-89, but who had a lot of injuries. But healthy, ASVEL is a too low level for him). So, maybe we expected too much from Malédon and maybe we forget easily that Hayes didn't get so much time in Cholet, and waste a lot of possessions with Ulm.
Evidently Hayes is more talented, and maybe fit more with NBA. But Hayes 1st, Maledon 16 ... I hardly believe it. About potential, I would put Hayes before Malédon, but I would not imagine such a difference. Maybe Hayes in second tier (3-5) and Malédon in the third tier (6-14). And Strazel in the top 8 next year ^^

PS: Steve Kerr wanted to see both

[getrichordie]

Last updated on 05/13/20

[color=#0000FF]tier 1
—
01a. Killian Hayes
01b. Anthony Edwards

tier 2
—

tier 4
—
11. Joel Ayayi
12a. Cole Anthony
12b. Kira Lewis Jr.
13. Jalen Smith
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Tyrese Maxey
16a. R.J. Hampton
16b. Theo Maledon


* = declared

Killian Hayes 1st ... as a french fan, why not

But so much difference between Hayes and Maledon is hard to understand for me. Off course, Hayes, by his father's culture does have US mentality (like TP 9 19 years ago). Off course, joining Germany, Hayes sharply increased all figures that year. Off course, we did not see any improvement in Maledon's game this year.

But ...
Two years ago, aged of 16, Hayes dominated U21 french championship (most of french pro start in this championship, teams depend of pro teams), and Malédon was under him, but the next after him. Last year, Maledon was in a top eurocup team, in the top french team, and had a true role in that team, whereas Hayes was bench in a weak team. So maybe the context was better for Malédon. For an under 18 in his fisrt pro year, it was really great. Other point guards were Demarcus Nelson (who left ASVEL for Bayern) and Mantas Kalnietis (Lithunia's NT PG). So it was not so easy to get minutes.
Then Hayes left France for Germany, and had opportunity to show his abilities in Eurocup. But Maledon did it year before, and in a top team of the competition. Hayes with so much TO's with ASVEL, would'not had played as much he played in Ulm this year.
For Maledon, I hoped him to take more responsabilities with Euroleague. For few reasons it didn't happen. First at all, an injury (shoulder). Secondly, during the summer we could think ASVEL would play with 3 PGs in the roster, but Strazel became pro and ASVEL played with 4 point guards. So it became hard to show more than last year with such a sharing of minutes (with Jordan Taylor, Strazel and ... Antoine Diot our former "next TP", a better prospect than Batum for the generation 88-89, but who had a lot of injuries. But healthy, ASVEL is a too low level for him). So, maybe we expected too much from Malédon and maybe we forget easily that Hayes didn't get so much time in Cholet, and waste a lot of possessions with Ulm.
Evidently Hayes is more talented, and maybe fit more with NBA. But Hayes 1st, Maledon 16 ... I hardly believe it. About potential, I would put Hayes before Malédon, but I would not imagine such a difference. Maybe Hayes in second tier (3-5) and Malédon in the third tier (6-14). And Strazel in the top 8 next year ^^

PS: Steve Kerr wanted to see both

Thanks for the insight. The big difference between Hayes and Maledon for me is that Hayes has shown more ability in the way of shot creation, IMO, and he can get to the hole easier than Maledon can. Everything I've ready has said that Maledon is a bit more perimeter-oriented but his %s from deep aren't great. His value for me comes on defense, hoping he can be a 3&D guard in the current mold of George Hill whereas I think Hayes has the potential to be somewhere in between Harden-lite and Rubio.

[The-Power]

Everything I've ready has said that Maledon is a bit more perimeter-oriented but his %s from deep aren't great. His value for me comes on defense, hoping he can be a 3&D guard in the current mold of George Hill whereas I think Hayes has the potential to be somewhere in between Harden-lite and Rubio.

Maledon has been an absolute disaster on defense when I watched him (a lot at the beginning of this season), and I don't say that lightly. He can improve, sure, but if you hope for him to be a 3&D Guard then you can have that hope for a lot of players who are closer to even average defense.

But of course I agree that Hayes is a much better prospect – that became painfully obvious to me over the course of the year as I scouted both of them extensively.

[getrichordie]

Everything I've ready has said that Maledon is a bit more perimeter-oriented but his %s from deep aren't great. His value for me comes on defense, hoping he can be a 3&D guard in the current mold of George Hill whereas I think Hayes has the potential to be somewhere in between Harden-lite and Rubio.

Maledon has been an absolute disaster on defense when I watched him (a lot at the beginning of this season), and I don't say that lightly. He can improve, sure, but if you hope for him to be a 3&D Guard then you can have that hope for a lot of players who are closer to even average defense.

But of course I agree that Hayes is a much better prospect – that became painfully obvious to me over the course of the year as I scouted both of them extensively.

Appreciate the insight but I tend to stay away from extreme comments such as, “Maledon has been a disaster defensively,” as it doesn’t seem very nuanced. Now, in some cases it may be true, but I usually cringe when I hear this stuff. I mean, he’s a young guy in the euro league so you have to account for his level of competition. He’s not playing in the NCAA, he’s playing in a much better league.

If you can show me some tape of him being consistently “disastrous,” I’d happily agree.

[The-Power]

Appreciate the insight but I tend to stay away from extreme comments such as, “Maledon has been a disaster defensively,” as it doesn’t seem very nuanced. Now, in some cases it may be true, but I usually cringe when I hear this stuff. I mean, he’s a young guy in the euro league so you have to account for his level of competition. He’s not playing in the NCAA, he’s playing in a much better league.

That's why I specifically noted that I don't write that lightly. You won't find many comments where I make such strong statements, but I do for Maledon. He had no clue how to defend and, most strikingly, he was completely unable to stick to his men. Most young players tend to fall asleep off the ball, foul too much, struggle to fight over screens etc. – but with Maledon, it was actually quite amazing to see how easily players could create separation on the ball when guarded by him, and that's not one of the typical ‘young guy mistakes’. Not sure if he improved towards the end of the season but it was terrible at the start.

If you can show me some tape of him being consistently “disastrous,” I’d happily agree.

I don't have tape of his terrible defense. I have access to the Euroleague games but neither the time nor the technical expertise to create a nice video of Maledon's defensive lowlights. You'll only be able to properly assess his defense when watching whole games – maybe there are some on the internet, maybe there aren't. I can only share my observations at this point; how much stock you put into that is up to you.

[clyde21]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

[getrichordie]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

I highly doubt many, if any, care about a player’s given name or where they come from.

[clyde21]

lol you'd be surprised my mans

[The-Power]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

Maledon isn't really highly rated. Hayes more so, because of his skill-set and upside. But let's just stick to Hayes: if he was playing for Vanderbilt, he'd be a top-player in college and therefore highly rated. In 10 EuroCup games, Hayes' numbers per36 include 17 points and 8 assists on good efficiency. That's better than the numbers of some of the highly ranked college prospects who play in a clearly worse league. Not sure how that amounts to being overrated. He clearly has higher floor than most of the Guards projected to be picked in the lottery – that alone is worth some. I mean, you were incredibly high on Isaac Bonga and he was nowhere near as good (or talented) as Hayes in Germany. And considering his age, his improvement compared to last year and the obvious shooting upside, there's no reason to believe that he hasn't a lot of untapped potential.

[clyde21]

this is like the 4th time you bring up Isaac Bonga to me in an argument, how long you gonna use that to flex nuts?

and I still believe in Bonga, don't sell.

[RiotPunch]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

If you replaced Saben Lee with Killian Hayes, and even changed his name to John Todd, I think he would be more solidified as a Top-5 guy. He's a legitimately good to great prospect, Maledon is not in the same conversation.

[Pistol King]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

I highly doubt many, if any, care about a player’s given name or where they come from.

An off topic to this comment, but still related to Hayes in general. I noticed you are very high on him. If you don't mind I'll share with you my concerns about him, and why I'm not high on him. It's going to be long.

The first thing concern me about him the most is the lack of burst/below average quickness. If he had one of those two physical tools,I'd be higher on him. I feel it will cost him a lot of problems at the next level. I don't know how many people watched his full games, but I personally watched a few full games and that's the first thing that popped up to me. It seems he have hard time driving to the rim even against below average athletes. It's rare that I'd see him blow by a defender. I'd expect from a point guard first of all to make the defender respect his ability to drive to the rim, then his defender will give him space because he afraid he might get blow by him, and then he can choose what to do with that space: to make a pull up 3, to break down the opponent's defense with a pass, or to blow by the defender.

With Hayes I see the exact opposite. Because he has hard time driving to the rim it's easy to force him to take a tough shot. Some people might say 'but he proves he can make some step back threes', but is it an efficient offense? I get the feeling in the next level against superior athletes, this will only get worse because it will be easier to prevent him from driving to the rim, and then when nobody respect his ability to slash, it will be also easier to be focused on contesting his threes, which are shaky anyways (29% the entire season). And when he have hard time driving to the rim and his shot his shaky, how well his playmaking ability gonna pay off? He feels to me far from being something sure at this moment. Now why I mentioned I watched a few full games? because only there I could noticed he isn't really crafty as it seems from highlights. He usually makes simple passes, and almost always driving in a straight line (due to limited athleticism), which is predictable. The second issue is the right hand. That's again something easier to notice on full games, but when the defender force him to go right he start to be nervous and that's where he becoming a turnover pron.

The last thing that makes me concerned is the fact he really played in a fairly weak teams the last two seasons. Last year he played for a team ranked 15'th on the French league, and this year he played for a team ranked 10th in Germany who've been also the worst in the EuroCup. I get the impression a lot of the credit he gets this year is due to his improving stats, but I can't deny the fact he played for a pretty weak team, which makes his floor lower than people might think. Yes, he played for a pro team, but we should consider the level of the team he playing for, and whether his stats are impressive enough considering the weakness of the team or not. Let's say I'd be much more impressed if he would get his stats in a strong team as Maledon's.

in conclusion, I'd feel much more confident picking a point guard with quickness, or craftiness (while driving to the rim, not behind the arc when there is a lot of space) In general, because that's the archetype of point guards that usually succeed in the NBA. Or a point guard that proved himself in the highest level outside the NBA. He doesn't check non of these boxes. I also know that's not the consensus, but I think the 'leading' point guards in this class (LaMelo, Haliburton, Hayes, Cole) are pretty overrated overall and I'm not high on any of them and somehow feel the most comfortable with Haliburton due to a solid floor, good shooting percentages, great passing and IQ and a slightly better athleticism. But even with him the expectations aren't more than being a solid starter.

Your thoughts?

[getrichordie]

Maledon and Hayes are both insanely overrated, i really don't get it when I watch either of them

i think if their names were Joe Smith and John Todd and played for Vanderbilt no one would be talking about them the way they are today.

I highly doubt many, if any, care about a player’s given name or where they come from.

An off topic to this comment, but still related to Hayes in general. I noticed you are very high on him. If you don't mind I'll share with you my concerns about him, and why I'm not high on him. It's going to be long.

The first thing concern me about him the most is the lack of burst/below average quickness. If he had one of those two physical tools,I'd be higher on him. I feel it will cost him a lot of problems at the next level. I don't know how many people watched his full games, but I personally watched a few full games and that's the first thing that popped up to me. It seems he have hard time driving to the rim even against below average athletes. It's rare that I'd see him blow by a defender. I'd expect from a point guard first of all to make the defender respect his ability to drive to the rim, then his defender will give him space because he afraid he might get blow by him, and then he can choose what to do with that space: to make a pull up 3, to break down the opponent's defense with a pass, or to blow by the defender.

With Hayes I see the exact opposite. Because he has hard time driving to the rim it's easy to force him to take a tough shot. Some people might say 'but he proves he can make some step back threes', but is it an efficient offense? I get the feeling in the next level against superior athletes, this will only get worse because it will be easier to prevent him from driving to the rim, and then when nobody respect his ability to slash, it will be also easier to be focused on contested his threes, which are shaky anyways (29% the entire season). He feels to me far from being something sure at this moment. Now why I mentioned I watched a few full games? because only there I could noticed he isn't really crafty as it seems from highlights. He usually makes simple passes, and usually driving in a straight line, which is predictable. The second issue is the right hand. That's again something easier to notice on full games, but when the defender force him to go right he start to be nervous and that's where he becoming a turnover pron.

The last thing that makes me concerned is the fact he really played in a fairly weak teams the last two seasons. Last year he played for a team ranked 15'th on the French league, and this year he played for a team ranked 10th in Germany who've been also the worst in the EuroCup. I get the impression a lot of the credit he gets this year is due to his improving stats, but I can't deny the fact he played for a pretty weak team, which makes his floor lower than people might think. Yes, he played for a pro team, but we should consider the level of the team he playing for, and whether his stats are impressive enough in his situation or not. I'd be more impressed if he would get his stats in a strong team as Maledon's.

in conclusion, I'd feel much more confident picking a point guard with quickness, or craftiness (while driving to the rim, not behind the arc when there is a lot of space) In general, because that's the archetype of point guards that usually succeed in the NBA. Or a point guard that proved himself in the highest level outside the NBA. He doesn't check non of these boxes. I also know that's not the consensus, but I think the 'leading' point guards in this class (LaMelo, Haliburton, Hayes, Cole) are pretty overrated overall and I'm not high on any of them and somehow feel the most comfortable with Haliburton due to a solid floor, good shooting percentages, great passing and IQ and a slightly better athleticism. But even with him the expectations aren't more than being a solid starter.

Your thoughts?

I can’t say I have any thoughts on the matter until I watch full games and see what you are seeing. I think when people talk about burst, it’s often times quite negligible at the next level due to the NBA being about reading defenses, screen actions, transition, etc. Players that elite burst such as Westbrook, of course, stand out. But unless you have outlier burst or awful burst, everything in between is just negligible at that point.

Can you point me in the direction where I can watch full games of Hayes?

[Pistol King]

I can’t say I have any thoughts on the matter until I watch full games and see what you are seeing. I think when people talk about burst, it’s often times quite negligible at the next level due to the NBA being about reading defenses, screen actions, transition, etc. Players that elite burst such as Westbrook, of course, stand out. But unless you have outlier burst or awful burst, everything in between is just negligible at that point.

Can you point me in the direction where I can watch full games of Hayes?

Some of his games are on Youtube. I came across them by links some fans shared in draft discussions.

Couldn't find anything besides this one, but there should be more out there with a bit searching work:

Watch on YouTube

[a-French-Fan]

Last updated on 05/13/20

[color=#0000FF]tier 1
—
01a. Killian Hayes
01b. Anthony Edwards

tier 2
—

tier 4
—
11. Joel Ayayi
12a. Cole Anthony
12b. Kira Lewis Jr.
13. Jalen Smith
14. Aaron Nesmith
15. Tyrese Maxey
16a. R.J. Hampton
16b. Theo Maledon


* = declared

Killian Hayes 1st ... as a french fan, why not

But so much difference between Hayes and Maledon is hard to understand for me. Off course, Hayes, by his father's culture does have US mentality (like TP 9 19 years ago). Off course, joining Germany, Hayes sharply increased all figures that year. Off course, we did not see any improvement in Maledon's game this year.

But ...
Two years ago, aged of 16, Hayes dominated U21 french championship (most of french pro start in this championship, teams depend of pro teams), and Malédon was under him, but the next after him. Last year, Maledon was in a top eurocup team, in the top french team, and had a true role in that team, whereas Hayes was bench in a weak team. So maybe the context was better for Malédon. For an under 18 in his fisrt pro year, it was really great. Other point guards were Demarcus Nelson (who left ASVEL for Bayern) and Mantas Kalnietis (Lithunia's NT PG). So it was not so easy to get minutes.
Then Hayes left France for Germany, and had opportunity to show his abilities in Eurocup. But Maledon did it year before, and in a top team of the competition. Hayes with so much TO's with ASVEL, would'not had played as much he played in Ulm this year.
For Maledon, I hoped him to take more responsabilities with Euroleague. For few reasons it didn't happen. First at all, an injury (shoulder). Secondly, during the summer we could think ASVEL would play with 3 PGs in the roster, but Strazel became pro and ASVEL played with 4 point guards. So it became hard to show more than last year with such a sharing of minutes (with Jordan Taylor, Strazel and ... Antoine Diot our former "next TP", a better prospect than Batum for the generation 88-89, but who had a lot of injuries. But healthy, ASVEL is a too low level for him). So, maybe we expected too much from Malédon and maybe we forget easily that Hayes didn't get so much time in Cholet, and waste a lot of possessions with Ulm.
Evidently Hayes is more talented, and maybe fit more with NBA. But Hayes 1st, Maledon 16 ... I hardly believe it. About potential, I would put Hayes before Malédon, but I would not imagine such a difference. Maybe Hayes in second tier (3-5) and Malédon in the third tier (6-14). And Strazel in the top 8 next year ^^

PS: Steve Kerr wanted to see both

Thanks for the insight. The big difference between Hayes and Maledon for me is that Hayes has shown more ability in the way of shot creation, IMO, and he can get to the hole easier than Maledon can. Everything I've ready has said that Maledon is a bit more perimeter-oriented but his %s from deep aren't great. His value for me comes on defense, hoping he can be a 3&D guard in the current mold of George Hill whereas I think Hayes has the potential to be somewhere in between Harden-lite and Rubio.

Indeed, Hayes may create his own shot. But once again, Malédon played two years under Mitrovic and no one may play for himself in his system, whereas Hayes had to move last year to get free to play the way he wants, with aim to show his abilities for draft. Malédon, showed more last year because there is a huge gap between Euroleague defense and Eurocup defense. When he had been asked to score, he did. And mostly he created his own shot. So Hayes'talent has always been higher than Malédon's talent but IMO Malédon showed more because he played Euroleague.
To finish, I would say that they are both able to create for themselves or teammates. Each team who pick one or other will be happy, and we are starting to have wealthy problems for PG in french national team (Ntilikina, Malédon, Hayes, Strazel).

[getrichordie]

Updated. Tell me where I'm wrong and why.