Darvin Ham Fired By Lakers

[Heat_team02]

I predict the next coach will be Mike Budenholzer.

[niha17]

GM Lebron had that meeting and said if you want me to resign get him out

[GunnerWRX]

Lebron has fired more coaches than the number of rings he has.

[RipCityKJ]

If only teams cycled through GMs at the rate that they did coaches. Vogel and Ham both took the fall for Pelinka.

Everyone is taking the fall for LeBron.

The Lakers problems started because LeBron and AD demanded the Lakers trade for Westbrook. Pelinka made a miracle happen by dumping Westbrook and bringing back reasonable complementary pieces.

Them shuffling coaches is just a bunch of BS because LeBron needs a scapegoat that isn't him, and they are willing to put up with him being a diva to keep the franchise somewhat interesting even though there is zero chance they can build forward from where they are, it's better to maintain some relevancy with AD/LeBron than have a rebuild, so they'll continue to shuffle deck chairs to provide LeBron some cover.

Yup, the same old playbook every time, for a guy (despite playing in the minor league East Conference most of his career) who couldn't win without colluding with two more franchise players or at the peak of a pandemic where nobody really wanted to play.

That marketing propaganda has to be there to protect his "legacy", which in reality is nowhere better than anyone who actually led his own team to a championship, like Giannis Antetokounmpo, Dirk Nowitzki, and the like, let alone repeated ring winners like Curry.

That D Wade led Miami team that won the chip is the one everyone remembers over any title they won with LeBron. In game 4 of this last series there was a play where on defense he was guarding KCP in the corner before LeBron moved into the key ran into his own player and then KCP cuts right by him for a dunk and LeBron literally jumped up and down like a toddler yelling at his team for their lack of defense, it might have been the most pathetic thing I’ve seen from him ever and that says a lot.

[nedleeds]

Great work by Ham to just get $15 million for 1 season of having LeGM use him as a scape goat.

Think about this ... Ham made $6.8 total his whole playing career over 8 years.

[Rashidi]

Are you suggesting the Lakers felt Westbrook was a poor fit, but they thought he would bring in a bigger following / make more money than the team already would without him? That seems pretty nonsensical. LeBron believed in the 3 star system and wanted Westbrook, it's more or less that simple.

The LAKERS believe in STARS. Lest we forget -

2004: When they brought in Karl Malone & Gary Payton, and played GP over Fisher until the last possible moment despite the obviously poor fit.

2013: When they brought in Steve Nash and Dwight Howard to play with Kobe and Gasol, with major questions of how that would work - taking the ball out of Kobe's hands and taking Gasol out of the post. They went from being a team that lost in the 2nd round two years in a row to a team that Kobe blew his Achilles out clawing them from lottery to the 8th seed over the final two months.

And obviously their acquisitions of Shaq, Gasol, LeBron, and AD are examples of when it's worked out. It's when they go overboard (overreacting to a playoff loss) where it becomes a problem.

There just seems to be a general disconnect w/ management assuming every star has the playstyle and mindset to seamlessly translate to a lesser role like a Chris Bosh or Ray Allen.

Maybe the Lakers could have waited on AD, maybe not, but again, LeGM was pushing hard for that to happen immediately too.

To be clear, a 34-year-old LeBron signed with a team that had 21-year old Brandon Ingram and 21-year old Lonzo Ball. Time was definitely of the essence (and both those guys were awful in 2019). The Pelinka issue isn't trading for AD, it's that there was no real negotiation w/ the Pels despite the leverage the Lakers held; he just gave them everything that wasn't tied down.

I think you underestimate the massive amount of pressure he puts on the front office at all times to do things immediately even if it creates unsustainable situations or bad long term outcomes.

Well, that's the thing, he knows that most owners are POS like Dan Gilbert or a Jerry Reinsdorf who are otherwise comfortable to rest on their laurels and rake in the cash. He grew up in the Last Dance era and surely knows it's his responsibility to keep management under pressure to win at all times.

[Rashidi]

Maybe, but the Lakers gave up a lot to keep Lebron happy, including acquiring AD and Westbrook. Those two acquisitions cost them multiple picks, plus Lonzo, KCP, Kuzma, Hart, Ingram, Mo Wagner, De'Andre Hunter. etc. They were on the path back to relevancy when Lebron flipped the script. I don't think they would have won those rings if Lebron didn't come to town, but they would be in better long-term shape than they are today.

With the exception of KCP, none of those players were going to develop w/ LeBron or AD around.

Ingram needed to go to New Orleans and have miracles worked on his jumper.

Lonzo didn't work out in New Orleans, and his career fell off the rails due to injury - hardly unpredictable since he missed 65 games in two years w/ the Lakers.

Kuzma sucks lol, he's a worse version of Ingram. You get the same out of him on a playoff team as you do Rui Hachimura.

Hart was just Caruso and isn't good enough of a shooter to play next to LeBron. Most of the incidental value he gives the Knicks as a secondary playmaker right now would not happen on a LeBron team (hell, there's a reason he didn't even start playing well this year until Randle got hurt).

Mo Wagner was probably not developing w/o joining a Magic team that drafted his brother.

Hunter was the #4 pick which they knew they were dealing away, and obviously doesn't make sense on a LeBron team.

Losing KCP was the sin of this team as they clearly underestimated his 3&D value (overreacting to his inability to create in the playoffs), and underestimated how easy it would be to find another playmaker (they signed Malik Monk, jumpstarting his career, and the undrafted Austin Reaves had lapped Westbrook by the end).

[dougthonus]

Well, that's the thing, he knows that most owners are POS like Dan Gilbert or a Jerry Reinsdorf who are otherwise comfortable to rest on their laurels and rake in the cash. He grew up in the Last Dance era and surely knows it's his responsibility to keep management under pressure to win at all times.

I don't begrudge a LeBron (or any other player) for using whatever leverage he has. The front office decides whether he's worth the hassle, and LeBron has clearly been worth the hassle over his career. However, I don't think LeBron using his leverage has increased odds of winning and in fact has made it much worse for his franchises.

Nothing about Dan Gilbert seemed to be aligned with sitting on his Laurels and trying to rake in cash, nor has that seemed to be true of any other team LeBron has been on.

[Pickled Prunes]

Maybe, but the Lakers gave up a lot to keep Lebron happy, including acquiring AD and Westbrook. Those two acquisitions cost them multiple picks, plus Lonzo, KCP, Kuzma, Hart, Ingram, Mo Wagner, De'Andre Hunter. etc. They were on the path back to relevancy when Lebron flipped the script. I don't think they would have won those rings if Lebron didn't come to town, but they would be in better long-term shape than they are today.

Almost certain they wouldn't have won a ring if LeBron didn't come or if he didn't sway AD to demand a trade there. You take the good with the bad with LeBron, and the good has historically been really, really good. The bad is very manageable in comparison even if means scapegoating some people who don't really deserve it to the press.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that that specific group of players would win a ring together without a star. I am suggesting that the day before Lebron arrived the Lakers were asset rich and now they are an asset wasteland. The LAL are a destination franchise; if Lebron didn't show up, someone else would have. And maybe they wait to get AD in free agency. Either way, Lebron filled a space that could have been occupied by any number of stars that have moved around the NBA in the past 6 seasons. We will never know, but to suggest that Lebron was the only path to a LAL championship in the past six seasons is to lack imagination.

With the exception of KCP, none of those players were going to develop w/ LeBron or AD around.

Ummm... why? Are you suggesting that Lebron stifles the growth of the players around him? If so, I don't flatly disagree with that premise. I mean, asking Westbrook to become a 3&D spot-up shooter is lake asking pigs to fly. (One of the many reasons Lebron would fail as a player/coach or GM and why he will likely have trouble as an owner.) But Lebron also elevates certain players.

I disagree with you on Kuzma for instance. He was probably the worst, best player on an NBA team this season (decade?), but he would have been the 3rd best player on several good teams. He was good next to Lebron and the Lakers certainly could have used him. But in the context of my post, he was just another asset they traded away. And they also refused to include him in trades that would have made LAL better because Lebron said he was untouchable... until Wesbrook came along. [

[Pickled Prunes]

Carving wood fired Ham by the Lake.... there's something tasty about this post!

[Rashidi]

Nothing about Dan Gilbert seemed to be aligned with sitting on his Laurels and trying to rake in cash, nor has that seemed to be true of any other team LeBron has been on.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/754856-cavs-trading-of-jj-hickson-to-kings-reminds-fans-of-lebron-james

A deal involving high-wire superstar Amare Stoudemire from Phoenix in February 2010 for the raw J.J. Hickson and Zydrunas Ilgauskas was rumored to be shut-down by Cavs owner Dan Gilbert, a man known for being thrifty, that saw enough in the former Wolfpack big to retain him for a fraction of Amare's cost.

[dougthonus]

Nothing about Dan Gilbert seemed to be aligned with sitting on his Laurels and trying to rake in cash, nor has that seemed to be true of any other team LeBron has been on.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/754856-cavs-trading-of-jj-hickson-to-kings-reminds-fans-of-lebron-james

A deal involving high-wire superstar Amare Stoudemire from Phoenix in February 2010 for the raw J.J. Hickson and Zydrunas Ilgauskas was rumored to be shut-down by Cavs owner Dan Gilbert, a man known for being thrifty, that saw enough in the former Wolfpack big to retain him for a fraction of Amare's cost.

Hard to look up the exact figures, but I believe Cavs, at worst, paid top 4 luxury tax payments in the NBA through the end of the LeBron era in Cleveland. They very well may have been the #1 tax paying team. They were absolutely willing to spend money despite a quote from a 15 year old article describing Gilbert as "thrifty". As of an article I found from last year, they were 7th in NBA history at that point, and at least 3 of the teams had passed them in the past couple years.

[Rashidi]

With the exception of KCP, none of those players were going to develop w/ LeBron or AD around.

Ummm... why? Are you suggesting that Lebron stifles the growth of the players around him?

He stifles the growth of players that play the same position or require the ball, just like every other star player.

I disagree with you on Kuzma for instance. He was probably the worst, best player on an NBA team this season (decade?), but he would have been the 3rd best player on several good teams.

Lol name those good teams

He was good next to Lebron

He was literally LeBron's backup and was not going to get the opportunity ($$$) he wanted. He wasn't good enough of a shooter to play next to a star (and still isn't). Take a look at what Tobias Harris has done as the 3rd best guy on PHI if you want your window into "Kuzma on a good team".

[Rashidi]

Hard to look up the exact figures, but I believe Cavs, at worst, paid top 4 luxury tax payments in the NBA through the end of the LeBron era in Cleveland. They very well may have been the #1 tax paying team. They were absolutely willing to spend money despite a quote from a 15 year old article describing Gilbert as "thrifty". As of an article I found from last year, they were 7th in NBA history at that point, and at least 3 of the teams had passed them in the past couple years.

The Cavs paid the tax (only because they had prime LeBron), but they otherwise operated like a small-market team.

They were a contender largely due to LeBron's brilliance, not because they were supplementing him effectively. They were acquiring past-prime vets (Ben Wallace, Shaquille O'Neal, Wally Szczerbiak, Antawn Jamison) in salary dumps, instead of looking for someone to actually pair with him long-term.

Not acquiring 27-year old Amare at that deadline, (something that was universally bashed at the time), instead settling for 33-year-old Antawn Jamison, because they wanted to hold onto 21-year old J.J. Hickson, was one of the final straws for the 25-year old LeBron.

[dougthonus]

The Cavs paid the tax (only because they had prime LeBron), but they otherwise operated like a small-market team.

Yes, of course. They are a small market team, and they behaved that way, but when they had LeBron there were no spending limits.

They were a contender largely due to LeBron's brilliance, not because they were supplementing him effectively. They were acquiring past-prime vets (Ben Wallace, Shaquille O'Neal, Wally Szczerbiak, Antawn Jamison) in salary dumps, instead of looking for someone to actually pair with him long-term.

Of course they were only contenders due to LeBron. Most contenders are only contenders due to one super duper star. That's how the NBA works. Based on the actual payrolls, money wasn't the issue. You can argue they were bad at GMing if you want I'm not disagreeing, but they spent an absolute ton of money and did whatever they could to bring talent in around him.

Not acquiring 27-year old Amare at that deadline, (something that was universally bashed at the time), instead settling for 33-year-old Antawn Jamison, because they wanted to hold onto 21-year old J.J. Hickson, was one of the final straws for the 25-year old LeBron.

You said that Dan Gilbert just sat and collected cash. He didn't. He spent an absolute crap ton on the Cavs when LeBron was there. You are factually wrong. It's objective. It's numbers. Quotes in an article about a trade that may or may not have happened with a rando reporters reasoning as to why don't really mean much in compared to the objective fact that he paid a ton of money when LeBron was here.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/286103/operating-income-cleveland-cavaliers-national-basketball-association/

The only 3 years they lost money were in LeBron's return to Cleveland to chase titles. The other all bad years financially were all there to support LeBron and build a team around him.

[Pickled Prunes]

He stifles the growth of players that play the same position or require the ball, just like every other star player.

Well, that's just false. Many players are great specifically because they make others around them great.

Lol name those good teams

I'm not going to break down every team in the league for you, at which point we'd have to argue about which teams are "good" teams and weather or not he would really be their 3rd best player. But the Lakers obviously could have used him. I also thought he would have been a great pickup for DAL.

He was literally LeBron's backup and was not going to get the opportunity ($$$) he wanted. He wasn't good enough of a shooter to play next to a star (and still isn't). Take a look at what Tobias Harris has done as the 3rd best guy on PHI if you want your window into "Kuzma on a good team".

Kuzma and Lebron played 873 minutes together in 19-20. They had the Lakers best 2-man (+/-) at +13.7. They were very good together. And he was good enough to have a ring on his finger.

Tobias is not PHI's problem. He's the kind of player every team could use. He's just overpaid. I'm not sure what more you can ask of Tobias; they don't use him. These playoffs he was 5th on PHI in HOB and 8th in USG.

PHI's problem is that they are top heavy. Embiid, Maxey and Tobias... and then a stack of other teams' castoffs: Oubrey, Lowery, Batum, Hield, Payne, Melton, etc... That roster blows!

But to your point, I think adding Kuzma to the Lakers would be a lot like Tobias on PHI. Tobias is better, but Kuzma (like all of Lebron's #3's and Tobias in PHI) would get the bulk of the blame.