Vincent already on the hot seat?

[Bowens]

See, I disagree Fluffer, Ray is not bad at playing SG. He's getting 16.9 PER at SG, equivalent to Monta Ellis. He's got an eFG% of .453 and still gets 6.6 assists/48. In addition, his turnovers drastically drop, and he fouls less.

He allows a better PER at SG, but 14.8 isn't bad, it's somewhere around how bad Ben Gordon has played so far this year.

Oy with the numbers again. You and Walt should go on date and compare each others "figures."

Not sure how you count garbage time numbers and equate that to other players. All I want to know is, how do you perform when the game is close and on the line. Don't give me all these per game numbers and stats, they are overrated. Show me wins and losses.

[BigSlam]

Put him next to an LBJ, Kobe or Roy or Joe Johnson type and he would be great.

No doubt about that.

But I do agree DBS - everything that I read about Felts coming out of UNC is that he was pass first with a suspect shot. Not the other way around.

[Bowens]

Interesting read on Raymond coming out of college

Just posted the outlook part. Article also describes his strengths and weaknesses.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

Outlook
Felton's talent is undeniable. He has all the tools to be a terrific point guard. His greatest attributes, such as quickness, speed, leadership, vision and instincts are things that can't be taught. You either have them or you don't. His biggest weaknesses, such as turnovers and shooting are things that are easily improved through hard work and coaching. It's these reasons why Felton, despite being a 3 year college player from a national championship team, still has a lot of room for improvement. His upside is still tremendous.

What team/coach that drafts Felton will have a bigger impact on his success than the other top point guards in the draft. Felton needs to play for a coach that is willing to let him push the ball and play at the speeds he thrives at. In the right system, Felton can be the best point guard in the draft; in the wrong system Felton just might be average.

How true.

[Walt Cronkite]

Went back and read draftexpress' and Chad Ford's analysis of Felton. Both describe tremendous athletic ability, who attacks the basket and has improved his shot. Draftexpress calls his vision "incredible", Ford says "excellent". Both comment that in an open court system Felton would be most productive/dangerous.

Bass is 100% correct, Gordon didn't play much point in college, but Ray was a very good one. When I labeled Ray a "shoot first PG" instead of combo guard earlier in the thread though, I wasn't analyzing from 4 years ago, but from what I have observed about Felton over the past 3.

For giggles, Ford called Ben Gordon "An explosive combo guard who has made a name for himself as much in international competition as a high school and college player." Also, "Is he a point guard or isn't he? That's still the big question. He seems to have the skill set, but does he have the mentality? Reminds some scouts of the Pistons' Chauncey Billups."

Looking at their PERs, you have to admit that they're pretty similar players. Gordon shoots Fts better, turns the ball over less, but also doesn't have nearly the assist rate Felton does and Gordon rebounds a little better (he's also taller and plays on a team with a higher pace so more rebs are available). They have an identical TS%. Remember this, because it is important.

I find it curious that both of our coaches have used the term "combo guard" in reference to Ray Felton. Anyway, I may add more to this later, so don't quote me yet...

[SamBone]

I have a different idea. Instead of urging Ray too shoot, Sam should look at tape from ray at NC when Roy Williams did not let him shoot and forced him to dish. Play ray at the point and tell him to try and get 25 assists, I guarantee we will love what we see!

[DaBassSource]

Went back and read draftexpress' and Chad Ford's analysis of Felton. Both describe tremendous athletic ability, who attacks the basket and has improved his shot. Draftexpress calls his vision "incredible", Ford says "excellent". Both comment that in an open court system Felton would be most productive/dangerous.

Bass is 100% correct, Gordon didn't play much point in college, but Ray was a very good one. When I labeled Ray a "shoot first PG" instead of combo guard earlier in the thread though, I wasn't analyzing from 4 years ago, but from what I have observed about Felton over the past 3.

For giggles, Ford called Ben Gordon "An explosive combo guard who has made a name for himself as much in international competition as a high school and college player." Also, "Is he a point guard or isn't he? That's still the big question. He seems to have the skill set, but does he have the mentality? Reminds some scouts of the Pistons' Chauncey Billups."

Looking at their PERs, you have to admit that they're pretty similar players. Gordon shoots Fts better, turns the ball over less, but also doesn't have nearly the assist rate Felton does and Gordon rebounds a little better (he's also taller and plays on a team with a higher pace so more rebs are available). They have an identical TS%. Remember this, because it is important.

I find it curious that both of our coaches have used the term "combo guard" in reference to Ray Felton. Anyway, I may add more to this later, so don't quote me yet...

I guess I have come to the conclusion that we drafted the wrong guy for our team/system or we hired the wrong coach for our pg... I guess finding another pg that fits Sam's system would be easier than finding another system to fit the pg...I guess...???

[DaBassSource]

I have a different idea. Instead of urging Ray too shoot, Sam should look at tape from ray at NC when Roy Williams did not let him shoot and forced him to dish. Play ray at the point and tell him to try and get 25 assists, I guarantee we will love what we see!

I disagree, at least to a point... for the same reason I have always had issues with people that say "Shoot First" or "Pass First". I think the best NBA PGs are good threats to score the ball. This causes teams to double them or switch on defense. All of this leads to other guys being open. Now it is up to the PG to deliver the ball to the open man, but that man has to make the shot. Even Kidd is a threat to make the open shot or drive...CP3, Nash, DW, Billups all have the known ability to score the ball, especially getting deep in the paint, causing the defense to react. Their great vision allows them to take advantage of the defenses reaction.


I guess some of the stat guys could show it either way..but to the eye (mine at least) I don't see a lot of great PGs just coming down and passing the ball....hell CP3 shoots a lot (not that I have a problem with it, it makes the defense take note of him leaving others open)...

[Rich4114]

The one thing that makes Vincent lose all credibility with me is that they said openly that they wanted Felton to look to score less and look to create for others more... then he makes him play SG. Last time I checked, a shooting guard is there to score first, everything else second.

I think statistically speaking Felton is actually better than last year, in fact early on in the season he was playing very well, we saw him scoring 20 and 10 type of numbers for a while there and the biggest thing was his foul shooting attempts were up. That meant he was getting to the rim a lot more and not getting out of control but drawing good clean contact.

If you look on our roster, everyone in this forum will agree the best PG we've got on our roster is Felton and the worst SG we've got on our roster is Felton... so if he is who we've got, then why are we going out of our way to use him in the way that most negatively impacts our team?

The two guys who are the most VITAL to this team's success are Okafor and Felton. The big man and the little man. We need Wallace and J-Rich for scoring/balance/options but what this team has now become is a systemless cluster**** where the offense involves standing around and watching these guys jack up shots and hold onto the ball for long periods of time with no movement from anyone else. They too are being used in the wrong ways but our coach is doing nothing about it. If they were fatiuged last night in the 2nd half (as has been suggested by Vincent as an excuse for the loss) then I'm not surprised. Because you know what happens when you're constantly forcing shots, fighting through traffic to get to the rim, and giving up long rebounds and fast breaks to the other team? Well you get tired as hell.

The results of that are an even more emotionless Okafor on defense who's too worried about getting a foul now than actually focusing on defending opposing bigs, and a frustrated Okafor who can't get involved in the offense at all (even when he gets post position 2 other guys are crowding around him bringing their defenders with them along for the ride).

Basically saying, the four main components of our team aren't functioning together, nor is our top bench scorer (Carroll), which makes young guys like Hollins, Dudley, and Davidson difficult to develop under a free for all system.

This is the most talented Bobcats team yet, but the most frustrating to watch play. I also feel like nothing has changed with this playing Felton at SG crap because it's been like that since opening night.

Just my opinion of what's going on here. We can blame our players all day long but at the end of the day if you want a team that's consistant, has everyone playing as a team knowing their roles, is happy, and most important of all gets wins... then you need a coach who knows how to accomplish that and a GM who knows how to give the coach the tools he needs to accomplish that. Right now I don't think we have either, but the GM is a better GM than the coach is a coach IMHO.

[fluffernutter]

The one thing that makes Vincent lose all credibility with me is that they said openly that they wanted Felton to look to score less and look to create for others more... then he makes him play SG. Last time I checked, a shooting guard is there to score first, everything else second.

I think statistically speaking Felton is actually better than last year, in fact early on in the season he was playing very well, we saw him scoring 20 and 10 type of numbers for a while there and the biggest thing was his foul shooting attempts were up. That meant he was getting to the rim a lot more and not getting out of control but drawing good clean contact.

If you look on our roster, everyone in this forum will agree the best PG we've got on our roster is Felton and the worst SG we've got on our roster is Felton... so if he is who we've got, then why are we going out of our way to use him in the way that most negatively impacts our team?

The two guys who are the most VITAL to this team's success are Okafor and Felton. The big man and the little man. We need Wallace and J-Rich for scoring/balance/options but what this team has now become is a systemless cluster**** where the offense involves standing around and watching these guys jack up shots and hold onto the ball for long periods of time with no movement from anyone else. They too are being used in the wrong ways but our coach is doing nothing about it. If they were fatiuged last night in the 2nd half (as has been suggested by Vincent as an excuse for the loss) then I'm not surprised. Because you know what happens when you're constantly forcing shots, fighting through traffic to get to the rim, and giving up long rebounds and fast breaks to the other team? Well you get tired as hell.

The results of that are an even more emotionless Okafor on defense who's too worried about getting a foul now than actually focusing on defending opposing bigs, and a frustrated Okafor who can't get involved in the offense at all (even when he gets post position 2 other guys are crowding around him bringing their defenders with them along for the ride).

Basically saying, the four main components of our team aren't functioning together, nor is our top bench scorer (Carroll), which makes young guys like Hollins, Dudley, and Davidson difficult to develop under a free for all system.

This is the most talented Bobcats team yet, but the most frustrating to watch play. I also feel like nothing has changed with this playing Felton at SG crap because it's been like that since opening night.

Just my opinion of what's going on here. We can blame our players all day long but at the end of the day if you want a team that's consistant, has everyone playing as a team knowing their roles, is happy, and most important of all gets wins... then you need a coach who knows how to accomplish that and a GM who knows how to give the coach the tools he needs to accomplish that. Right now I don't think we have either, but the GM is a better GM than the coach is a coach IMHO.

Well put. I agree. The fact that Okafor has regressed is clearly a problem in the coaching system, unless suddenly both Felton and Okafor started taking the "suck" pill every morning.

"If you look on our roster, everyone in this forum will agree the best PG we've got on our roster is Felton and the worst SG we've got on our roster is Felton... so if he is who we've got, then why are we going out of our way to use him in the way that most negatively impacts our team?"

That's really it. Play the best PG at the PG spot; play the best SG at the SG spot. See what happens. Clearly this jacking around lineups is getting nobody anywhere in a hurry. It simply can't be worse than the status quo. The Bobcats are currently UNWATCHABLE.

[spectre_]

Interesting read on Raymond coming out of college

Just posted the outlook part. Article also describes his strengths and weaknesses.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

Outlook
Felton's talent is undeniable. He has all the tools to be a terrific point guard. His greatest attributes, such as quickness, speed, leadership, vision and instincts are things that can't be taught. You either have them or you don't. His biggest weaknesses, such as turnovers and shooting are things that are easily improved through hard work and coaching. It's these reasons why Felton, despite being a 3 year college player from a national championship team, still has a lot of room for improvement. His upside is still tremendous.

What team/coach that drafts Felton will have a bigger impact on his success than the other top point guards in the draft. Felton needs to play for a coach that is willing to let him push the ball and play at the speeds he thrives at. In the right system, Felton can be the best point guard in the draft; in the wrong system Felton just might be average.

How true.

Heh, that article has no credibility whatsoever; the author only likes white guys with no athleticism.

[fatlever]

LOL.... you're killin' me spectre. and manu and ak are somewhat athletic

hey, i still stand by about 90% of what i wrote back then. it's pretty much spot on, even today. and the 10% i was wrong about, still baffles me... like the leadership part. how do you go from being a pg on several state hs title teams to being a pg on a national college title team to now, where his leadership of obviously lacking. to me, i think its all about confidence with ray. right now, he has none and it kills his leadership instincts.

[fatlever]

regarding the incredible vision comment... i would obviously revise that somewhat... he does show good vison in traffic and on the break, however he has a poor understanding of getting guys the ball in the right spots in the half court setting. that part of his game went largely unnoticed at carolina since they did not run a lot of half court offense and when they did it was a lot of pick and rolls with may... and felton is still one of the better pick and roll pgs in the league, imo.

[Walt Cronkite]

So we can blame the Felton pick on Fats?

[therebirth]

Felton needs to spend all his time playing point because it doesn't look like this team is going anywhere. Let him sink or swim. For the first time we may have a chance at getting the #1 pick. If felton fails draft D Rose, get another big man and hire a Doug Collins. With May and Morrison coming back we will have a deep team.

[therebirth]

This is what espn's chris Sheridan had to say.


Also, you can never dismiss the volatility of any head coaching spot occupied by Don Nelson, and there's always the Leonard Hamilton factor (he was Michael Jordan's first coaching hire in Washington but lasted just one season) to remember when considering Sam Vincent's longevity prospects in Charlotte. Odds: 10-1

[fatlever]

So we can blame the Felton pick on Fats?

i guess that depends on how much bernie was reading dx back in 2005.

he must have also been reading all my pro ammo rants in the spring of 2006 as well.

hey bernie, read this..... go get jose calderon.

[Walt Cronkite]

My friends have convinced me that maybe the entire problem is Vincent.

Fire him and find out.

[Walt Cronkite]

Not the entire problem, just the largest, most easily replaceable one.

[Bowens]

-= original quote snipped =-



Heh, that article has no credibility whatsoever; the author only likes white guys with no athleticism.

Are you referring to Matt Carroll? Otherwise I don't get it.

[spectre_]

-= original quote snipped =-



Are you referring to Matt Carroll? Otherwise I don't get it.

Fats wrote that DS article. The white, unathletic comment is because a lot of us (me, anyway ) give him hell about "Team Argentina" and Ammo.

I think I've been burned twice by posting something Fats has written over on a now defunct board. Not that embarrassing tho; no matter how much crap I give Fats he knows I think he's a stellar columnist.

Fats, you need to write more. Granted now there isn't a whole lot to write about, but still. If JRich can continue his outstanding play I think you'd be awesome to pen about it...esp. since you were never a huge fan to begin with.