The "Dude": The Mitch Kupchak Thread

[JMAC3]

]So what they are telling me is that Miles and Borrego are the difference between 43 wins and whatever it is we've seen over past month.
In that case, Miles was MVP and Borrego was coach of year.

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

[Chapelchilla]

Looks like Mitch actually had a press conference today

I do understand they regularly hold meetings with the season ticket holders, but the fan base is much larger than just season ticket holders. They need to occasionally be available to Media.

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You beat me to this. My deadly accurate calculations show that 99% of the global fanbase are not season ticket holders. Presser is a good sign - more please.

True, but the season ticket holders have more skin in the game. The CEO of any company communicates with the stockholders more than the general public.

[fatlever]

]So what they are telling me is that Miles and Borrego are the difference between 43 wins and whatever it is we've seen over past month.
In that case, Miles was MVP and Borrego was coach of year.

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

I'm aware of that. I'm not speaking on the totalitarity of the entire season. I referenced in my post the past month when Clifford has had his entire starting lineup available. We have still been awful. Sure it's a small sample size, but nothing we've seen recently suggest that this team would have performed well. Every team has injuries to significant players. Look at the box scores every night and there's rotation players missing. We aren't the only ones dealing with injuries.

There are four teams that have been truly terrible this year and three of them were trying to be terrible on purpose and then there's us.

There is absolutely no evidence that given a relatively healthy roster this season, minus miles, that Clifford would have been able to guide this team to anything more than 30 wins.

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[fatlever]

]So what they are telling me is that Miles and Borrego are the difference between 43 wins and whatever it is we've seen over past month.
In that case, Miles was MVP and Borrego was coach of year.

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

I would also point out that our Center rotation this year has been probably twice as good as last year. Our backup point guard situation is improved from last year. Kelly. when he did play was better this year than last year. McDaniels was better this year.

None of it mattered...

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[Braggins]

There are four teams that have been truly terrible this year and three of them were trying to be terrible on purpose and then there's us.

Its really sad when you realize that the other teams that are as bad as the Hornets all own a million extra future 1st round picks because they've been in asset collection mode. There are also teams that are better that own a bunch of future extra picks from going into asset collection mode recently but have already surpassed the Hornets (Thunder best example).

Look at where the Thunder were three years ago compared to now. Now think about how three years later the Hornets GM is still like "hmm, maybe Hayward and Rozier can still get it done"...

[JMAC3]

]So what they are telling me is that Miles and Borrego are the difference between 43 wins and whatever it is we've seen over past month.
In that case, Miles was MVP and Borrego was coach of year.

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

I'm aware of that. I'm not speaking on the totalitarity of the entire season. I referenced in my post the past month when Clifford has had his entire starting lineup available. We have still been awful. Sure it's a small sample size, but nothing we've seen recently suggest that this team would have performed well. Every team has injuries to significant players. Look at the box scores every night and there's rotation players missing. We aren't the only ones dealing with injuries.

There are four teams that have been truly terrible this year and three of them were trying to be terrible on purpose and then there's us.

There is absolutely no evidence that given a relatively healthy roster this season, minus miles, that Clifford would have been able to guide this team to anything more than 30 wins.

Even over the last month we haven't had Miles, Cody or Oubre. Hayward has played in 9 or 18 games since the new year.

I agree we have looked bad the last 6 games, but you also are still ignoring we missing key guys.


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[fatlever]

Everyone in the league is missing key players

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[amcoolio]

The more I think about it, Mitch sounds like a guy who is hamstrung and can’t say anything. MJ has largely been completely absent the last 4 years. There are rumors circulating that Charlotte is ultra cheap with the front office and coaching staff. If he can’t put out a quality product, then sell. Bill Simmons keeps floating that Charlotte is about to become available, hopefully he's right.

[Chapelchilla]

]So what they are telling me is that Miles and Borrego are the difference between 43 wins and whatever it is we've seen over past month.
In that case, Miles was MVP and Borrego was coach of year.

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

I'm aware of that. I'm not speaking on the totalitarity of the entire season. I referenced in my post the past month when Clifford has had his entire starting lineup available. We have still been awful. Sure it's a small sample size, but nothing we've seen recently suggest that this team would have performed well. Every team has injuries to significant players. Look at the box scores every night and there's rotation players missing. We aren't the only ones dealing with injuries.

There are four teams that have been truly terrible this year and three of them were trying to be terrible on purpose and then there's us.

There is absolutely no evidence that given a relatively healthy roster this season, minus miles, that Clifford would have been able to guide this team to anything more than 30 wins.

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Gordon is clearly not healthy yet; he is out there trying to play but the fluidity is not there. Martin is not playing either, having him to play good D on the opposing guards/SF is a big loss. Not having Miles was the kick in the nuts they couldn't afford and then all the injuries cascaded into a perfect tank job.

We are not going to be nearly as bad as some of ya'll seem to be firmly convinced of, next year. Set backs happen. I think Mitch learned from them and is charting a good path forward based on the reality of where things are.

The Miles is under ongoing investigation was a key takeaway for me in that presser. That uncertainty should hopefully get resolved soon.

[fatlever]

Read on Twitter

?t=7b4VoWV5UbS7qm8iU0WM1w&s=19

Looks like we are about 7th out of 30 in terms of total number of games missed to injury, with another eight or so teams immediately behind us separated by only a handful of games. Not statistically significant.

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[Braggins]

I think its very possible that Mitch has wanted to retire for the last few years and has just checked out and been waiting/hoping for MJ to fire him, but MJ just doesn't give a **** and likes Mitch so hes fine just paying to be around (same reason they probably won't fire Clifford).

[fatlever]

Hornets have 26 games left. Assuming all of our guys play the rest of the games here is the games count of this year vs last.

Miles Bridges 80 games-0 = -80 games
Lamelo Ball 75 games -55= -20 games
Cody Martin 71 games - 33= -48 games
Kelly Oubre 76 games - 56 = -20 games
Terry Rozier 73 games-72= -1 games
Hayward 49 games - 56= +7 games

This is with Ball, Martin, Oubre, Rozier all projected to play every single game for rest of the year. We are going to be down at least 160 games from the core of players listed above.

I'm aware of that. I'm not speaking on the totalitarity of the entire season. I referenced in my post the past month when Clifford has had his entire starting lineup available. We have still been awful. Sure it's a small sample size, but nothing we've seen recently suggest that this team would have performed well. Every team has injuries to significant players. Look at the box scores every night and there's rotation players missing. We aren't the only ones dealing with injuries.

There are four teams that have been truly terrible this year and three of them were trying to be terrible on purpose and then there's us.

There is absolutely no evidence that given a relatively healthy roster this season, minus miles, that Clifford would have been able to guide this team to anything more than 30 wins.

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Gordon is clearly not healthy yet; he is out there trying to play but the fluidity is not there. Martin is not playing either, having him to play good D on the opposing guards/SF is a big loss. Not having Miles was the kick in the nuts they couldn't afford and then all the injuries cascaded into a perfect tank job.

We are not going to be nearly as bad as some of ya'll seem to be firmly convinced of, next year. Set backs happen. I think Mitch learned from them and is charting a good path forward based on the reality of where things are.

The Miles is under ongoing investigation was a key takeaway for me in that presser. That uncertainty should hopefully get resolved soon.

I think if everything I went according to plan next year, and I don't even mean winning the lottery, but just adding like the 5th best player in the draft along with resigning miles, PJ and maybe some of the role players. And having Better Health to our core...

This team probably tops out around 40 wins. And then we're right back to where we've been the last two years under Borrego as a 9th seed fighting for a play in spot.

That seems to be the place where the franchise is comfortable operating.

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[Chapelchilla]

With Miles/PJ, a healthy season from the core, a couple of decent role player additions and natural improvement (strength gains and experience) from the young players including some help from the 4 other picks (or trades of those picks for something of value) in the draft we would be a 45 win team at the floor. Add a good top 4 pick and you could hit 50 easy. Add a true star (entirely possible at this point) and we could have a future contender in the making.

[JMAC3]

Read on Twitter

?t=7b4VoWV5UbS7qm8iU0WM1w&s=19

Looks like we are about 7th out of 30 in terms of total number of games missed to injury, with another eight or so teams immediately behind us separated by only a handful of games. Not statistically significant.

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This probably doesn't take into account Miles.

Who was our Leading scorer despite 3rd in fga per game, 2nd highest rebounds, most free throws, most dunks, 3rd in assists.

[JMAC3]

Hornets seasons in 10 words or less
2018-2019- Last year of Kemba, 9th seed
2019-2020- first year without kemba, Graham best player won 23 games
2020-2021- first year of Lamelo, 10th seed lost in playin won 33 games
2021-2022- Miles breakout, 10th seed lost in playin won 43 games
2022-2023- No Miles, Lots of injuries, tanking for #1.

You can **** on Kupchak all you want I supposed, but we improved for 3 years in a row. Had 2 guys that were borderline allstars last year under 25 years old.

This season sucked, we were injured and had a lot of issues organizationally. I am not sure Rozier is the longterm answer at shooting guard either, but trading our players for picks in a draft that we already have 5 picks in doesn't really seem like we would be good next year either.

Our best hope to improve next year is to resign Miles, hit on our top 5 pick, fill out depth and gleague with fresh developmental prospects with our other 4 picks and hope LaMelo, Miles and draft pick can be a really good complimentary top 3. Having Rozier, PJ and Hayward as good support pieces.

Trading Rozier, PJ, Hayward for picks pretty much guarantees we would be bad again next year. If that is what you want then say that, we need to continue the rebuild for a few years. I think Mitch and MJ would prefer 1 year bad, nail the pick and try to compete again.

[Braggins]

The team won 35% of their games under JB in 2019/2020 with less talent available than what Clifford has had this season. Rookie Devonte Graham was the leading scorer on that team. They've won 27% this season.

Its not just the record, either. Ive watched at least one game almost every day since the season has started. I often watch two and sometimes three games. Ive watched a pretty big sample of the entire league this season. The way this team plays on both sides of the ball does not stack up to the rest of the league.

The offense is especially bad. There has been a lot of advancement across the league with the way teams play offense now and the kinds of actions they are using. Go watch a Kings game sometime and see the system they run. Jay Triano has actually been getting a lot of credit for constructing their offense and I'm pretty sure he was similarly influential building the Hornets offense last season. The approach is quite a bit different since they play through Sabonis, but a lot of the actions and the constant motion they play with will remind you a lot of what you saw with the Hornets last season. The difference with this years version of the Hornets is very stark.

The entire organization is bush league from top to bottom tbh. Ownership, management, coaching, player development, medical staff, etc, its lagging behind the rest of the league in basically every aspect.

[-Ian-]

Read on Twitter

?t=7MYa2mOui4Lp_TQvOWvsFQ&s=19

Basically this....

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Losing money? What about the revenue sharing between NBA teams?

[yosemiteben]

I'm just chiming in with half baked thoughts because I'm busy at work but think this is an interesting discussion and I know I get labeled as I guess absentmindedly being a company man in favor of the Hornets.

I buy a fair amount of the framework that JMAC is laying out, and I also am sympathetic to the position the FO was put in with the coaching situation. I also thought Cliff was a good solution given the situation and was optimistic that he would teach some defensive discipline to Melo, which IMO would dwarf any of the other issues and turn this into a positive season.

With all the said, I think this season was just completely unacceptable and can't be blamed on injuries. It was a heavy lift as a new coach to come in to the Miles situation then try to build continuity with all the injuries we had, particularly given Cliff's philosophy on coaching and rotations, but to me that doesn't excuse the product that we've seen. I equally blame the FO and coach for this situation and I do think a fresh start on both fronts is necessary.

I don't think Mitch is as bad as he is made out to be on here, and I don't think Cliff is either. We are not in nearly as bad a spot as we could be, and I do believe we are positioned well for the future given the draft assets and cap flexibility we have. With that said, I also think it's very clear that neither our coaching staff or FO are going to take us there and a change is needed.

[CuseMayne]

With Miles/PJ, a healthy season from the core, a couple of decent role player additions and natural improvement (strength gains and experience) from the young players including some help from the 4 other picks (or trades of those picks for something of value) in the draft we would be a 45 win team at the floor. Add a good top 4 pick and you could hit 50 easy. Add a true star (entirely possible at this point) and we could have a future contender in the making.

Seems overly optimistic IMO. 45 win team at the floor? I couldn't personally put a win total floor on this organization moving forward, just can't trust what they do at this point to be all that competent. I wouldn't bank on Mitch adding decent role players either. I'd like a new GM at this point, although I do agree that it does seem that he's acting as if MJ is hindering his ability to make moves. Pure speculation obviously...

Gah. You guys remember the hope after last season? I for one am in hope of a big offseason...but you know where hope's gotten us in the past lol...

[amcoolio]

With Miles/PJ, a healthy season from the core, a couple of decent role player additions and natural improvement (strength gains and experience) from the young players including some help from the 4 other picks (or trades of those picks for something of value) in the draft we would be a 45 win team at the floor. Add a good top 4 pick and you could hit 50 easy. Add a true star (entirely possible at this point) and we could have a future contender in the making.

In a vacuum against AI teams, sure. But other teams have improved significantly. They'll improve next offseason too. We are so far behind, be it infrastructure, money, and basketball brain power, behind most of the other teams. I'd lump us with the Wolves, Wizards, Kings, Magic and the new ownership Rockets in terms of just lagging way behind the pack from the other teams. The Kings are good this season by brute force of having 10 years of top 10 picks, they were bound to hit eventually. Orlando finally turned it around the last couple years with Wagner and a lucky lottery win with Banchero who looks awesome. Houston at least has another franchise's entire 1st round draft picks. The Timbertrolls are hopeless with their future gone, I would choose our future over theirs unless they make the right KAT trade. The Wizards....yeah, they are incompetent and right there with us. Their fans hate them too, but at least they've won a few series this century, unlike us.

You are banking on Miles being back and the top 5 pick to be great right away, which are complete uncertainties. Do I trust this front office to nail both of those? Nope.