The "Dude": The Mitch Kupchak Thread

[Braggins]

I don't think Mitch is as bad as he is made out to be on here, and I don't think Cliff is either. We are not in nearly as bad a spot as we could be, and I do believe we are positioned well for the future given the draft assets and cap flexibility we have. With that said, I also think it's very clear that neither our coaching staff or FO are going to take us there and a change is needed.

Mitch has had more success than any Hornets GM at the most important aspect of this particular GM job, which is drafting, so that counts for something.

I'll relentlessly bash individual moves, but I do give a lot of leeway with big picture type stuff to Hornets GMs because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding at this job under MJ.

I still feel like the JB firing was more of an MJ thing and that decision is what cascaded into the Hornets ending up with Clifford. They have to get a better coach, but I really don't know what the answer is to the GM situation.

Part of me feels like maybe its good Mitch will be making the picks in this upcoming draft, but I also have trouble getting over the 2021 draft because its the kind of horrible whiff that could indicate a red flag in the process, but outside of that year the process has yielded pretty good results, so idk. Everything besides the draft still worries me, but idk if any of that gets better with a different GM (no excuse for Mitch if he resigns Oubre though...).

[JDR720]

None of those Mitch quotes make me feel better. Actually, they all made me feel pretty terrible.

Basically...

- We need to focus on development as a small market team. So we traded away 13. Traded away Jalen (also because we're cheap) and hired Steve Clifford as the coach, who has glued Mark to the bench most of the season.

- We aren't a deep team. Maybe we should've kept #13 and tried to acquire someone who is actually useful instead of a buyout candidate and a below average SG. Also, I am reminded of letting Caleb leave to Miami.

- We're basically going to run back the same team again next year. Because for some reason winning 15 games and everyone being hurt means we don't actually know if we're good or not. Despite having largely the same core for the past 2-3 seasons. Which wasn't good enough because the previous coach got fired.

On the small market excuse specifically, I don't think that matters as much today as it used to. With the tax. No current super teams. And multiple other small markets doing quite well. Are we going to sign a star? No. But Charlotte isn't some basketball purgatory. It's probably a top 20 market.


And all those quotes made me really want MJ to sell the team. Mitch is just the fall guy, if/when he gets fired. MJ is by far the worst owner in the league. In fact, I'll hold it against his legacy and declare LeBron as the GOAT too.

[MPM]

Looks like Mitch actually had a press conference today

I do understand they regularly hold meetings with the season ticket holders, but the fan base is much larger than just season ticket holders. They need to occasionally be available to Media.

Sent from my SM-G973U using RealGM Forums mobile app

You beat me to this. My deadly accurate calculations show that 99% of the global fanbase are not season ticket holders. Presser is a good sign - more please.

True, but the season ticket holders have more skin in the game. The CEO of any company communicates with the stockholders more than the general public.

C'mon. The point is the FO needs to be communicating with the general fanbase more esp. in light of everything going on with the team this season - agree or disagree? (and, today's single presser is the right direction but feels a bit too little, too late)

[SWedd523]

With Miles/PJ, a healthy season from the core, a couple of decent role player additions and natural improvement (strength gains and experience) from the young players including some help from the 4 other picks (or trades of those picks for something of value) in the draft we would be a 45 win team at the floor. Add a good top 4 pick and you could hit 50 easy. Add a true star (entirely possible at this point) and we could have a future contender in the making.

We're at what, year 5 of that now?

At this point just change the team name to the groundhogs.

[SWedd523]

I don't think Mitch is as bad as he is made out to be on here, and I don't think Cliff is either. We are not in nearly as bad a spot as we could be, and I do believe we are positioned well for the future given the draft assets and cap flexibility we have. With that said, I also think it's very clear that neither our coaching staff or FO are going to take us there and a change is needed.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you just said, but I'd like to assert one point:

Sports leagues are inherently results-based organizations and move at a pace much faster than basically any other "industry". The NBA, even more so than the other major sports leagues, is driven by individual player movements. Durant going to PHO completely changes their short-term trajectory, Kyrie to DAL, Lebron back to CLE, then to LAL, just to use star player examples. Or how Banchero changed the future outlook of ORL, Mobley in CLE, even Melo somewhat here.


The Hornets meanwhile seem stuck in a mindset of "Hey guys, it just wasn't our luck this year. Let's make a couple of minor tweaks and run it back next year." which lands them somewhere between lazy, out-of-touch, and clueless. Despite the owner being a notorious gambler, they never make the decision to go for it in either direction, instead choosing a listless right-up-the-gut concept that we've all bemoaned at least since I've been an active member here. "Oh boy, I can't wait to draft 9-13 again and sign a couple of mid-tier guys to half decade contracts so we can do it all over again next season"

The worst part being that the owner is so willfully blind to his own managerial shortcomings that he cannot get out of his own way and actually hire folks who are good at their jobs, instead preferring to run the organization like a friends and family welfare program. It's so bad we're even complaining about the incompetence of the injury reports.

The only positive things that've happened have been complete accidents in spite of their efforts to go other directions.

In MJ's ownership alone, Cleveland has gone from title contender, to bottom feeder, to title contender, to bottom feeder, to borderline title contender again.

That's how fast the landscape changes. Meanwhile our GM is saying "we just had some bad luck. We're going to lock up our salary cap for the next 4 years on PJ Washington and Kelly Oubre (lmao) and try again next year."

They need a complete tear down from the highest level

[JMAC3]

None of those Mitch quotes make me feel better. Actually, they all made me feel pretty terrible.

Basically...

- We need to focus on development as a small market team. So we traded away 13. Traded away Jalen (also because we're cheap) and hired Steve Clifford as the coach, who has glued Mark to the bench most of the season.

- We aren't a deep team. Maybe we should've kept #13 and tried to acquire someone who is actually useful instead of a buyout candidate and a below average SG. Also, I am reminded of letting Caleb leave to Miami.

- We're basically going to run back the same team again next year. Because for some reason winning 15 games and everyone being hurt means we don't actually know if we're good or not. Despite having largely the same core for the past 2-3 seasons. Which wasn't good enough because the previous coach got fired.

On the small market excuse specifically, I don't think that matters as much today as it used to. With the tax. No current super teams. And multiple other small markets doing quite well. Are we going to sign a star? No. But Charlotte isn't some basketball purgatory. It's probably a top 20 market.


And all those quotes made me really want MJ to sell the team. Mitch is just the fall guy, if/when he gets fired. MJ is by far the worst owner in the league. In fact, I'll hold it against his legacy and declare LeBron as the GOAT too.

Yeah, I think people are underestimating the power of a top 4 pick. It will be easily our 2nd most valuable asset behind LaMelo. If you want to trade the pick you could probably acquire an allstar for the pick straight up.

I don't think the team will be the same team next year. We have an entire offseason to change the roster, if you are mad that we didn't make 4 trades at the deadline and completely overhaul the team overnight then you have unrealistic expectations.

Nobody wanted to pay both Caleb and Cody lol. We all agreed the whole twin 1/2 thing was too much overlap to keep both. That is the biggest hindsight 20/20 shot at Mitch.

You guys are really making me hate Jalen McDaniels too. He isn't very good. He is okay. You are acting like we traded a core starter for a 2nd round pick.I basically see him going one of two ways.

1. He plays pretty well in a reserve role for Philly and probably gets overpaid in FA as a borderline starter by someone.
2. He plays poorly and we look smart for getting what we can for him.

If he plays great and becomes a starter in the league averaging 15 ppg for the next 4 years I will eat crow. I am just not going to cry about losing a 7th man who probably asked for more money than he is worth and so Mitch traded him before losing him for nothing.

[SWedd523]

You beat me to this. My deadly accurate calculations show that 99% of the global fanbase are not season ticket holders. Presser is a good sign - more please.

True, but the season ticket holders have more skin in the game. The CEO of any company communicates with the stockholders more than the general public.

C'mon. The point is the FO needs to be communicating with the general fanbase more esp. in light of everything going on with the team this season - agree or disagree? (and, today's single presser is the right direction but feels a bit too little, too late)

I don't think a pre-packaged generic statement from the Public Affairs Office with Mitch's name attached at the end is doing much to convince anyone with a functional brain.

At this point they just have the same form letter genned up for some intern to fill out, Mad Lib style

[MPM]

True, but the season ticket holders have more skin in the game. The CEO of any company communicates with the stockholders more than the general public.

C'mon. The point is the FO needs to be communicating with the general fanbase more esp. in light of everything going on with the team this season - agree or disagree? (and, today's single presser is the right direction but feels a bit too little, too late)

I don't think a pre-packaged generic statement from the Public Affairs Office with Mitch's name attached at the end is doing much to convince anyone with a functional brain.

At this point they just have the same form letter genned up for some intern to fill out, Mad Lib style

Let's just say generic blather is better than utter silence even if it's a far cry from the substantive comms I'd prefer to see from our FO. In short - agree. Maddeningly regurgitated but at least I know he's in front of press and not swinging a golf club.

[-Ian-]

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Jesse was the team's digital designer for 5 seasons.

[Braggins]

You guys are really making me hate Jalen McDaniels too. He isn't very good. He is okay. You are acting like we traded a core starter for a 2nd round pick.I basically see him going one of two ways.

1. He plays pretty well in a reserve role for Philly and probably gets overpaid in FA as a borderline starter by someone.
2. He plays poorly and we look smart for getting what we can for him.

If he plays great and becomes a starter in the league averaging 15 ppg for the next 4 years I will eat crow. I am just not going to cry about losing a 7th man who probably asked for more money than he is worth and so Mitch traded him before losing him for nothing.

I think the thing people are mostly mad about with the McDaniels trade is them passing on Thybulle for monetary reasons.

I think the pick value return on McDaniels was a bit light and I would have rather taken my chances with resigning him than taking a return that I didn't feel particularly good about. I wouldn't have liked the deal without the Thybulle aspect because I don't think it makes sense for this team to lose young talent for monetary reasons when they don't actually have a bad cap situation, but I get the risk with his free agent status and why there would be incentive to move him.

What I can't get over is that getting Thybulle was such a better option and seems to be what everyone wanted, but they said "nahhh, gimme that weak ass pick action" because they just didn't wanted to pay anyone and it wasn't actually about McDaniels being unrestricted.

[JMAC3]

I think the thing people are mostly mad about with the McDaniels trade is them passing on Thybulle for monetary reasons.

I think the pick value return on McDaniels was a bit light and I would have rather taken my chances with resigning him than taking a return that I didn't feel particularly good about. I wouldn't have liked the deal without the Thybulle aspect because I don't think it makes sense for this team to lose young talent for monetary reasons when they don't actually have a bad cap situation, but I get the risk with his free agent status and why there would be incentive to move him.

What I can't get over is that getting Thybulle was such a better option and seems to be what everyone wanted, but they said "nahhh, gimme that weak ass pick action" because they just didn't wanted to pay anyone and it wasn't actually about McDaniels being unrestricted.

Yeah, I would of rather had Thybulle too, but again we are talking about a guy that probably should play 20 mpg. He has real offensive flaws hence why Philly was open to moving him. A decent chance we can find a 3D player at end of round 1 start of round 2.

The fact that people are rioting because we only got 1 2nd for Plumlee instead of 2 and would rather have Thbulle over a top 35 pick and another 2nd is crazy to me.

.... nooo nooo "We are rioting because we made a bad trade with pick 13 too"... Yeah it was a bad trade it happens. In the grand scheme of it, it wasn't event that bad. Especially since Mitch had no idea the Miles situation was going to happen at the point of the deal.

-Legit he could of traded 4 firsts Rozier and Mark for Gobert, that was not some wild thing that couldn't of happened.
He could of traded Kai Jones, Mark Williams and another first for Poeltl last year. We would be sweating losing a top 5 pick potentially if we had done that deal.
-He could of traded Miles Bridges and LaMelo for #1 and picked Wiseman.

These are all rumors that were circulating Hornets. Where Mitch probably made the right call... but yeah let's throw a hissy fit because we could have Tari Eason or Ochai Agbagi coming off our bench.

[Braggins]

I think the thing people are mostly mad about with the McDaniels trade is them passing on Thybulle for monetary reasons.

I think the pick value return on McDaniels was a bit light and I would have rather taken my chances with resigning him than taking a return that I didn't feel particularly good about. I wouldn't have liked the deal without the Thybulle aspect because I don't think it makes sense for this team to lose young talent for monetary reasons when they don't actually have a bad cap situation, but I get the risk with his free agent status and why there would be incentive to move him.

What I can't get over is that getting Thybulle was such a better option and seems to be what everyone wanted, but they said "nahhh, gimme that weak ass pick action" because they just didn't wanted to pay anyone and it wasn't actually about McDaniels being unrestricted.

Yeah, I would of rather had Thybulle too, but again we are talking about a guy that probably should play 20 mpg. He has real offensive flaws hence why Philly was open to moving him. A decent chance we can find a 3D player at end of round 1 start of round 2.

The fact that people are rioting because we only got 1 2nd for Plumlee instead of 2 and would rather have Thbulle over a top 35 pick and another 2nd is crazy to me.

.... nooo nooo "We are rioting because we made a bad trade with pick 13 too"... Yeah it was a bad trade it happens. In the grand scheme of it, it wasn't event that bad. Especially since Mitch had no idea the Miles situation was going to happen at the point of the deal.

-Legit he could of traded 4 firsts Rozier and Mark for Gobert, that was not some wild thing that couldn't of happened.
He could of traded Kai Jones, Mark Williams and another first for Poeltl last year. We would be sweating losing a top 5 pick potentially if we had done that deal.
-He could of traded Miles Bridges and LaMelo for #1 and picked Wiseman.

These are all rumors that were circulating Hornets. Where Mitch probably made the right call... but yeah let's throw a hissy fit because we could have Tari Eason or Ochai Agbagi coming off our bench.

This is all irrelevant deflection lol. I like how you can't actually ever defend any of these decisions so you always end basically saying "ya, they did a dumb thing but who cares, they could have done an even dumber thing and maybe they'll do a smart thing in the future, so stop complaining".

Its not ok to just pass up adding talent when it falls in your lap. The stupid draft trade shouldn't be excused because they didn't make an even dumber Gobert trade or because Eason is only a bench player right now (in his rookie season). Thybulle having limitations to his game and not being perfect or an all-star doesn't mean he wouldn't have helped the team and that its excusable to leave him on the table when hes being offered, nor does the possibility of them adding a player in draft. The possibility of them drafting Wiseman has literally nothing to do with anything. These arguments/deflections are nonsensical.

[SWedd523]

C'mon. The point is the FO needs to be communicating with the general fanbase more esp. in light of everything going on with the team this season - agree or disagree? (and, today's single presser is the right direction but feels a bit too little, too late)

I don't think a pre-packaged generic statement from the Public Affairs Office with Mitch's name attached at the end is doing much to convince anyone with a functional brain.

At this point they just have the same form letter genned up for some intern to fill out, Mad Lib style

Let's just say generic blather is better than utter silence even if it's a far cry from the substantive comms I'd prefer to see from our FO. In short - agree. Maddeningly regurgitated but at least I know he's in front of press and not swinging a golf club.

I was reinforcing your point directed at Chapel regarding the season tickets statement, but yes. I agree.

The presser is what we need more of

[yosemiteben]

SWedd I agree with your point that results matter and honestly that's why I'm ultimately out on the FO and coaching staff. I can usually see the logic of the various approaches we've taken, but they didn't work and we are where we are and I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

My outlier opinion is I definitely don't want to hear from either the owner or the GM. The proof is in the pudding, I don't care to hear from them.

[MPM]

SWedd I agree with your point that results matter and honestly that's why I'm ultimately out on the FO and coaching staff. I can usually see the logic of the various approaches we've taken, but they didn't work and we are where we are and I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

My outlier opinion is I definitely don't want to hear from either the owner or the GM. The proof is in the pudding, I don't care to hear from them.

Curious - are you saying you're OK with the Hornets being as historically hush-mouthed as they are (Miles and Bouk incidents come to mind, but day-to-day, it's a quiet org) or that you just don't care to hear the GM and/or Owner's opinion of the product they're putting on the floor? Not sniping - genuinely curious.

[SWedd523]

SWedd I agree with your point that results matter and honestly that's why I'm ultimately out on the FO and coaching staff. I can usually see the logic of the various approaches we've taken, but they didn't work and we are where we are and I think the chickens are coming home to roost.

My outlier opinion is I definitely don't want to hear from either the owner or the GM. The proof is in the pudding, I don't care to hear from them.

Don't necessarily disagree. I think we tend to feel a little more entitled to ownership publicity since he's MJ. Don't think the fans of the Bucks or Magic particularly care what their ownership has to say.

I think I WOULD like to see even a monthly or so public meeting by the GM, even if it's just a state of the franchise type thing.

I also think it would be refreshing to have a public facing PAO team that does fan outreach, AMA, twitter and social media engagement, and various other public stuff. MJ did some of that at the beginning of his tenure and that has died off bigly

[fatlever]

Yeah, I think people are underestimating the power of a top 4 pick. It will be easily our 2nd most valuable asset behind LaMelo. If you want to trade the pick you could probably acquire an allstar for the pick straight up.

i think many of us are beaten down by our decades of drafting failures that counting on anything from a top 10 lotto pick is wishful thinking. i'll believe it when we see it.

#2 Okafor
#5 Felton
#3 Morrison
#8 traded for JRich
#9 Augustin
#7 Biyombo
#9 Kemba
#2 MKG
#4 Zeller
#9 Vonleh
#9 Kaminsky
#2 LaMelo

we have hit on 2 out of 12 top 10 picks. 84% failure in terms of finding a difference maker with our top 10 picks.
1 out of 6 top 5 picks. 84% failure for top 5.

forgive me if i refuse to get excited about anyone we draft (no matter how high they are selected) until they prove otherwise.

[HornetJail]

Yeah, I think people are underestimating the power of a top 4 pick. It will be easily our 2nd most valuable asset behind LaMelo. If you want to trade the pick you could probably acquire an allstar for the pick straight up.

i think many of us are beaten down by our decades of drafting failures that counting on anything from a top 10 lotto pick is wishful thinking. i'll believe it when we see it.

#2 Okafor
#5 Felton
#3 Morrison
#8 traded for JRich
#7 Biyombo
#9 Kemba
#2 MKG
#4 Zeller
#9 Vonleh
#2 LaMelo

we have hit on 2 out of 10 top 10 picks. 80% failure in terms of finding a difference maker with our top 10 picks.
1 out of 6 top 5 picks. 84% failure for top 5.

forgive me if i refuse to get excited about anyone we draft (no matter how high they are selected) until they prove otherwise.

2 out of 12, you missed DJ and Frank

[Chapelchilla]

The negativity in here is off the charts!
We traded 2 mediocre role players for draft capital, playing time and future $.

Wrapping it up for me - An incoming top pick that has a high potential of being a real star , plus several over chances at getting another good player and the possible return of the teams second best player from last year could leave the chicken littles ITT with egg on the face and what should be (but probably won’t) little to cry about next season, lol.

The thread has pretty much turned into beating a dead horse and is feeling like we are at a funeral with grumpy uncles so I’m probably done with it until the draft when there is something more interesting and forward looking to discuss.
Have a nice weekend!

[fatlever]

Yeah, I think people are underestimating the power of a top 4 pick. It will be easily our 2nd most valuable asset behind LaMelo. If you want to trade the pick you could probably acquire an allstar for the pick straight up.

i think many of us are beaten down by our decades of drafting failures that counting on anything from a top 10 lotto pick is wishful thinking. i'll believe it when we see it.

#2 Okafor
#5 Felton
#3 Morrison
#8 traded for JRich
#7 Biyombo
#9 Kemba
#2 MKG
#4 Zeller
#9 Vonleh
#2 LaMelo

we have hit on 2 out of 10 top 10 picks. 80% failure in terms of finding a difference maker with our top 10 picks.
1 out of 6 top 5 picks. 84% failure for top 5.

forgive me if i refuse to get excited about anyone we draft (no matter how high they are selected) until they prove otherwise.

2 out of 12, you missed DJ and Frank

lol, omg, its sooo bad.