Secret Sauce: The Terry Rozier Thread

[amcoolio]

56 players are averaging 20 or more right now. Insane! Terry types just aren't needed right now.

[fatlever]

I agree with many on Twitter who are saying the deal with Toronto, which I assume would look like McDaniels and Terry for Gary Trent and whatever, then we turn around and resign Trent to 25 million over the summer, that's not a Direction I want us to go.

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[JDR720]

Yeah, he's a better defender than Terry but he doesn't get assists or rebounds.

[JMAC3]

like the Bucks.

And I know Kyle Lowry is getting older and having a bad year, but I wholeheartedly disagree that Terry would start over him in miami. Lowry brings leadership, intangibles and defense well beyond what Terry can provide to that team. Plus Terry is a rotten point guard.

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Lowry doesn't play point guard for the Heat though, he is 10th in usage. Most of the actions run through Herro, Bam, Jimmy or Oladipo. Heat are better off with Vincent playing over Lowry, Rozier is better player now and will be next year for sure.

Problem is Bucks legit have nothing to offer, no picks, no contracts that even work for matching. The would have to trade at least 3 of these 4 Allen, Connaughton, Ingles, George Hill to make money work and I doubt Milwaukee wants to blast off all their depth.

Best fits IMO

Suns- have picks, plus tons of matching salary options. Booker and CP both have missed time and Rozier would be a nice 3rd guard/fill in when one misses time.

Mavs- Rozier can create his own shot, something Dallas needs more of outside of Luka. Dallas has picks, matching salary options.

Lakers- We all have seen this explored 99 times.

Clippers- they seem to always be in asset collection and have liked him in past.

Miami- I would probably turn down Lowry and first for Rozier to be honest. The fit could make sense as I pointed out above, but not sure how the deal gets there.

Minnesota- Unconventional, but that is Twolves for you. A swap of Russell and Rozier could make sense if Twolves just wanted to add scoring. With Towns and Gobert underrim Rozier defense probably wouldn't be bad.

Washington- If they still live in delusional world of Beal is the centerpiece. Rozier would be their second best guard and they have some contracts or prospects they could send back.

That is 5-7 teams who I think could make a move, it's the NBA and there is usually a few darkhorse trades you never see coming on top of that. Suns would be the team I am most interested in though.

[JMAC3]

I agree with many on Twitter who are saying the deal with Toronto, which I assume would look like McDaniels and Terry for Gary Trent and whatever, then we turn around and resign Trent to 25 million over the summer, that's not a Direction I want us to go.

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I actually don't think Terry would be involved in the deal with Toronto,

My guess would be Oubre/McDaniels and Nuggets first for Trent. Then we ship Terry off in another deal.

It would just be risky that Trent could leave in FA and we gave up assets for nothing just to have a chance at a more expensive Rozier. Trent will get more money than Rozier makes currently.

[fatlever]

Pass on Russell
Pass on Lowry... he'd be a great mentor for lamelo, but there's no way he would be happy playing for a bottom feeder team at this point in his career
Clippers always seem to have a ton of hard-working Hustle do everything guards. Not really sure if Terry offers them something they don't get from Jackson, Kennard, Mann, Powell, batum or wall. They have so much depth in that area.
Wizards are intriguing if like you said, they are still delusional about trying to build around the team they have. Terry could probably start in the back court next to Beal since Beal handles most of the offense creation
Same with Mavs.
Main competition Dinwiddie, hardaway,, green, hardy, bullock. Not sure what we'd have to take back though and matching salary.
Suns could definitely use some help considering all their injury problems (crowder and shamet for salary match, plus pick)

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[fatlever]

I agree with many on Twitter who are saying the deal with Toronto, which I assume would look like McDaniels and Terry for Gary Trent and whatever, then we turn around and resign Trent to 25 million over the summer, that's not a Direction I want us to go.

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I actually don't think Terry would be involved in the deal with Toronto,

My guess would be Oubre/McDaniels and Nuggets first for Trent. Then we ship Terry off in another deal.

It would just be risky that Trent could leave in FA and we gave up assets for nothing just to have a chance at a more expensive Rozier. Trent will get more money than Rozier makes currently.

We also have to give up a first round pick for the right to overpay Trent in the summer? They're probably going to lose him for nothing. They get to rent two rotation players for their playoff run. Uhh!

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[JMAC3]

I agree with many on Twitter who are saying the deal with Toronto, which I assume would look like McDaniels and Terry for Gary Trent and whatever, then we turn around and resign Trent to 25 million over the summer, that's not a Direction I want us to go.

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I actually don't think Terry would be involved in the deal with Toronto,

My guess would be Oubre/McDaniels and Nuggets first for Trent. Then we ship Terry off in another deal.

It would just be risky that Trent could leave in FA and we gave up assets for nothing just to have a chance at a more expensive Rozier. Trent will get more money than Rozier makes currently.

We also have to give up a first round pick for the right to overpay Trent in the summer? They're probably going to lose him for nothing. They get to rent two rotation players for their playoff run. Uhh!

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The Raptors can absolutely keep him this summer if they want, so whatever deal they take has to entice them some. That is why I don't think we make sense as a partner. Someone who can't pay Gary this summer like Mavs, Suns or Heat make a lot more sense to probably meet their demands.

Hornets could just trade off Rozier in a deal and then try to poach Gary this summer so it doesn't incentivize us as much to chase him now as some others.

[fatlever]

I'm not in favor of any deals where we trade a future first round pick, even if it's a god-awful crappy into the first round Denver Nuggets pick which we should have never traded for in the first place, unless the player coming back is a clear upgrade in a position of need, or skill of need. Trent Jr over Terry, long term, doesn't really move the needle in my opinion. Maybe something like this would be more palatable if we were able to recoup a future first round pick by Trading terry.

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[JMAC3]

Pass on Russell
Pass on Lowry... he'd be a great mentor for lamelo, but there's no way he would be happy playing for a bottom feeder team at this point in his career
Clippers always seem to have a ton of hard-working Hustle do everything guards. Not really sure if Terry offers them something they don't get from Jackson, Kennard, Mann, Powell, batum or wall. They have so much depth in that area.
Wizards are intriguing if like you said, they are still delusional about trying to build around the team they have. Terry could probably start in the back court next to Beal since Beal handles most of the offense creation
Same with Mavs.
Main competition Dinwiddie, hardaway,, green, hardy, bullock. Not sure what we'd have to take back though and matching salary.
Suns could definitely use some help considering all their injury problems (crowder and shamet for salary match, plus pick)

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For Lowry the Heat would have to give us a pick or Jovic or something to make us consider.

Clippers look good on surface, but Jackson is a FA, Wall has a TO. No guarantees either are back. Jackson probably wants payday after being underpaid last few years. They are another team who is so far over the cap, that trading for guys under contract who may be slighlty undervalued or overpaid is worth it, because they are going to be nowhere near signing new guys in FA

Mavs basically did nothing to replace Brunson. Luka is playing with a bunch of role players and a 6th man in Dinwiddie.

Not saying Russell makes a ton of sense on Hornets, but for Wolves they are basically in a use or lose it situation if they aren't bringing Russell back. They are going to have like 10-15 million to spend in FA without him or they could trade him now for a guy under contract and get a 25-35 million type of player and just operate over the cap. I would put it at like 80% chance he is dealt somewhere.

[JMAC3]

I am not completely against moving Terry in the right deal, but it seems like somewhere we got in our head he is awful, overpaid and it will be easy to replace him. I just don't think that.

Guys hitting FA this summer in his tier are going to get paid just as much like Gary Trent, Bogdanovic, Dillon Brooks, Ayo, FVV... all these guys are getting 20-30 million a year.

I just think we are quick to be like oh yeah pay McDaniels 10, Martin 7, Richards 8, DSJ 5... and before you know it you have a bunch of role playing bench players taking up a good chunk of cap space.

and you traded starters like Rozier and PJ for late firsts who likely are going to end up being more bench playing role players. Just because a guy isn't an allstar or making half of what he is worth doesn't mean you should just kick him and assume there are better options. Free agency has literally got worse every year for the last 5 years.

Even if we draft Scoot, he will make sub 10 million for 4 years. That makes having Rozier on his deal even less constraining.

[fatlever]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

[Liver_Pooty]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

Has there ever been an instance where building around a PG has worked other than Magic Johnson though? Thunder tried with Westbrook, blazers with Lillard, hawks are trying to do it with young but failing. I'm sure it's happened but can't recall.

And yeah I know the blazers and thunder experienced success, but was referring to titles.

[JMAC3]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

Has there ever been an instance where building around a PG has worked other than Magic Johnson though? Thunder tried with Westbrook, blazers with Lillard, hawks are trying to do it with young but failing. I'm sure it's happened but can't recall.

And yeah I know the blazers and thunder experienced success, but was referring to titles.

Luka, Curry are both going to win a lot of titles playing point guard as best player on a team.

[fatlever]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

Has there ever been an instance where building around a PG has worked other than Magic Johnson though? Thunder tried with Westbrook, blazers with Lillard, hawks are trying to do it with young but failing. I'm sure it's happened but can't recall.

And yeah I know the blazers and thunder experienced success, but was referring to titles.

worked to level of finals or some semi-consistent playoff level? i'm just talking about putting your franchise player in best position to succeed. i'd kill for blazers/lillard level of success.

melo will probably never be good enough to be best player on a finals team. eventually he'll need a 1A guy around him to be that successful/ i question if he will ever play defense, be mature enough to get to that elite/ELITE level. one-way superstars dont carry championship teams, at any position.

to answer your overall question, the a correct response is steph curry.

[JMAC3]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

That doesn't mean sell Terry for 75 cents on the dollar. Especially for a team that lacks talent.

Is drafting a 6-2 scoring guard in Scoot the fix?

Cavs, Nets, and Portland still have small backcourts and are making it work.

Exclude All-star level talents and who are these shooting guards that fit next to LaMelo?

[Liver_Pooty]

for me, its not about terry's contract, ita about his poor fit next to melo. we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s. i realize those guys dont grow on trees, but terry/melo backcourt doesnt work. at ome point we need to start building around melo to give him a chance to reach his full potential.

Has there ever been an instance where building around a PG has worked other than Magic Johnson though? Thunder tried with Westbrook, blazers with Lillard, hawks are trying to do it with young but failing. I'm sure it's happened but can't recall.

And yeah I know the blazers and thunder experienced success, but was referring to titles.

worked to level of finals or some semi-consistent playoff level? i'm just talking about putting your franchise player in best position to succeed. i'd kill for blazers/lillard level of success.

melo will probably never be good enough to be best player on a finals team. eventually he'll need a 1A guy around him to be that successful/ i question if he will ever play defense, be mature enough to get to that elite/ELITE level. one-way superstars dont carry championship teams, at any position.

to answer your overall question, the a correct response is steph curry.

Ha. Yeah, can't believe I forgot about Curry.

[Chapelchilla]

If Terry is the leader he seem to be, I would just keep him and move him to the 6th man spot if we draft and develop a bigger, better defending 2 guard. But, If Lamelo does not like him or his style of play is toxic to the team, I would move him for whatever combo of cap relief, young player or a picks is out there. He is not a must keep or must trade guy as far as I can see. He is just mid tier minutes filler with some scoring ability and not much else.

[fatlever]

If Terry is the leader he seem to be, I would just keep him and move him to the 6th man spot if we draft and develop a bigger, better defending 2 guard. But, If Lamelo does not like him or his style of play is toxic to the team, I would move him for whatever combo of cap relief, young player or a picks is out there. He is not a must keep or must trade guy as far as I can see. He is just mid tier minutes filler with some scoring ability and not much else.

is terry a good leader though? i'm sure he thinks he is, and maybe he is trying, to his credit. i dont think this team has any really solid leaders. terry as leader plays terrible defense, what kind of example is that?
its not to bash on terry. he's tough as nails, has tons of heart, but just maybe time to pivot from him? i could tolerate terry so much better in a 6th man role.

[JMAC3]

we HAVE to get a plus defender next to melo, who can also shoot 3s.

Exclude All-star level talents and who are these shooting guards that fit next to LaMelo?

Probably should exclude guys that were top 5 picks in the last few years because they are not going to be available via trade.

Starting 2 guards.
Atlanta - Murray - All Star
Boston- Derrick White
Brooklyn - Seth Curry
Chicago- LaVine - All-Star
Cleveland - Mitchell - All-Star
Dallas - Dinwiddie -
Denver - KCP -
Detroit - Ivey - Top 5 pick
Golden State - Klay - All - Star
Houston - Jalen Green - Top 5 pick
Indiana - Buddy Hield -
Clippers - Paul George - All-Star
Lakers - Lonnie Walker
Memphis - Bane - Trade 4 future firsts?
Miami - Tyler Herro
Milwaukee - Grayson Allen
Minnesota - Anthony Edwards- Top 5 pick
Pelicans - CJ McCollum - - Way more expensive than Terry
Knicks - RJ Barrett- Top 5 Pick
OKC - SGA - Trade 5 future firsts?
Orlando - Suggs - Top 5 Pick
Philly - Harden - All-Star
Phoenix - Booker - All-Star
San Antonio- Vassell
Toronto - Trent Jr
Utah -Jordan Clarkson -
Washington - Beal - All- Star


So options are...
Derrick White- Not bad, but Celts probably want something gave up (Richardson, Langford, first and future swap)
Seth Curry- Similar to Terry, shooter, undersized and doesn't play defense
Dinwiddie- Best option so far for the cost? Not sure he is a defensive guy
Grayson - shooter, who doesn't seem like he is a good defender
KCP- 3D guy? Is he our man
Buddy Hield- Similar to Terry, shooter but doesn't play defense
Walker- Worth his next contract and the next running mate for LaMelo?
Vassell- Probably the best fit, but Spurs would probably want a haul. I would say probably 2 firsts.
Herro- More expensive than Terry, would cost several firsts to get and still doesn't play defense.
Trent - Probably a decent fit for what you want, are you willing to give him 25-30 million in FA?
Clarkson- Similar to Terry, doesn't play defense.

Who is our guy? Seems like maybe 4 realistic options. Vassell, Trent, KCP or White