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Re-Signed: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread (3yrs/$48m)

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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#801 » by JMAC3 » Wed Aug 9, 2023 1:50 pm

amcoolio wrote:I really don't get spending money just because you have the space. Teams would much rather trade their disgruntled star for pure cap space/trade exemption than take back contracts. Rozier isn't netting us anything in trade nor is he an asset just because we had the money and gave him a contract. Are you really making that argument for Terry? Because PJ will be the same if we give him a long term deal. It's time we think proactively and not continue to be one of the worst ran franchises in all of professional sports.


Pure cap space? That would require we are 30-40 million under the salary cap, plus you would giving up 100% of the value in the trade in terms of draft picks. Seems pretty unrealistic for a small market team.

If we had 10 million in cap space you would rather pay a worse player 10 million then give PJ 18 million? Simply because he isn't a top 100 player?
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#802 » by MPM » Wed Aug 9, 2023 4:06 pm

Hart signing a 20mm+ per year contract pushing that new norm up for solid bench role players.

Consider that a win for PJ's camp - "look at Hart!"
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#803 » by Bassman » Wed Aug 9, 2023 4:34 pm

MPM wrote:Hart signing a 20mm+ per year contract pushing that new norm up for solid bench role players.

Consider that a win for PJ's camp - "look at Hart!"


Yep, Hornets letting the market continue to bid UP the value of role players tells me they just aren’t willing to sign PJ to a multi year deal at levels even close to current market value. For a front office that drags their feet, they will gladly watch PJ sign the QO. I think they want to give PJ another year to bake and see what he becomes. That’s a mistake. If he over performs, he leaves for a larger contract and role. If he under performs some team will take a chance on him at higher $ than we would offer.

If Miller was a no doubt shooting guard, we wouldn’t have this dilemma as Miles would play the 3 with PJ at 4. We will try that lineup I’m sure, and I’d love for it to work…as we would have great size at every position.

Guess work is all we have to go on, since we hear nothing from this team.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#804 » by SWedd523 » Wed Aug 9, 2023 4:37 pm

PJ taking the QO is a bigger risk to PJ than the Hornets.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#805 » by amcoolio » Wed Aug 9, 2023 7:13 pm

Hart is a much better player than PJ and exactly what we needed next to LaMelo but we went the Rozier route. I’d trade anyone besides LaMelo, Mark, Miller for him. Harts value goes beyond statsheet.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#806 » by Bassman » Wed Aug 9, 2023 9:50 pm

SWedd523 wrote:PJ taking the QO is a bigger risk to PJ than the Hornets.


Agree. My point is we will likely get no return value for him if we don’t or can’t re-sign after this season. We miss on so many draft picks, I’d hate to not get something back on one that worked out OK. But, if they really can’t agree on a good $ level contract….
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#807 » by SWedd523 » Wed Aug 9, 2023 10:23 pm

He should've been traded last year if they weren't going to bring him back. I'm pretty sure we can mostly all agree on that.

I don't think doubling down by giving him a big, welfare contract "just because" we have the space is a good way to fix the issue.

Either way, I'm sure they'll **** it up.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#808 » by JMAC3 » Wed Aug 9, 2023 10:45 pm

amcoolio wrote:Hart is a much better player than PJ and exactly what we needed next to LaMelo but we went the Rozier route. I’d trade anyone besides LaMelo, Mark, Miller for him. Harts value goes beyond statsheet.


Cool, Knicks gave up a former lottery pick they traded a first for and an extra first for him.

Would you trade PJ and a future first for him right now?
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#809 » by Rich4114 » Thu Aug 10, 2023 3:17 pm

Hart would've been great on this team and also a starter. Our SG situation is pretty weak.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#810 » by JMAC3 » Thu Aug 10, 2023 4:06 pm

Rich4114 wrote:Hart would've been great on this team and also a starter. Our SG situation is pretty weak.


He has been traded 3 times in his career.
1. For AD.
2. For CJ McCollum.
3. For a first and a former lottery pick.

Guys like him aren't cheap. That is why I asked, last year at trade deadline would you have been okay moving PJ and a 2025 first for him?

If not, we probably weren't getting him. nor do we have a top 10 player to trade for a slew of players/picks or an allstar guard like CJ we are able to deal.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#811 » by Rich4114 » Thu Aug 10, 2023 5:17 pm

JMAC3 wrote:
Rich4114 wrote:Hart would've been great on this team and also a starter. Our SG situation is pretty weak.


He has been traded 3 times in his career.
1. For AD.
2. For CJ McCollum.
3. For a first and a former lottery pick.

Guys like him aren't cheap. That is why I asked, last year at trade deadline would you have been okay moving PJ and a 2025 first for him?

If not, we probably weren't getting him. nor do we have a top 10 player to trade for a slew of players/picks or an allstar guard like CJ we are able to deal.


I'm not sure I personally would have been OK dealing that type of package for him, I think there are more creative ways to get a Hart type of player on the roster. But you could certainly make an argument for it, especially if your plan was to just watch PJ walk in a season or two.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#812 » by amcoolio » Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:32 pm

We dealt firsts for Kai Jones and Nick Smith Jr. So yes, I would make that trade. And a Charlotte first is insanely valuable, we could have had Hart for a single first. We should have traded 11 (Bouknight) for him. The Kai Jones and 13th for Den 1st trades were insanely stupid.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#813 » by Rich4114 » Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:04 pm

amcoolio wrote:We dealt firsts for Kai Jones and Nick Smith Jr. So yes, I would make that trade. And a Charlotte first is insanely valuable, we could have had Hart for a single first. We should have traded 11 (Bouknight) for him. The Kai Jones and 13th for Den 1st trades were insanely stupid.


Excellent points. If we traded any of those for Hart it would've been a huge W
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#814 » by JMAC3 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:40 pm

Rich4114 wrote:
amcoolio wrote:We dealt firsts for Kai Jones and Nick Smith Jr. So yes, I would make that trade. And a Charlotte first is insanely valuable, we could have had Hart for a single first. We should have traded 11 (Bouknight) for him. The Kai Jones and 13th for Den 1st trades were insanely stupid.


Excellent points. If we traded any of those for Hart it would've been a huge W


Yeah hindsight is perfect as usual lol.

So trading Kai and an unprotected 2025 first for Hart right now is a win in your mind?
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#815 » by JMAC3 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:48 pm

https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2023/08/do-cavs-need-another-point-guard-given-the-uncertain-ricky-rubio-situation-hey-chris.html

"Hey, Chris: How likely is a P.J. Washington sign-and-trade? What would the Cavs need to give up? -- Cavs fans everywhere

Hey, Cavs fans: Let’s start here: Sources say the 24-year-old Washington, who is a restricted free agent, is hoping for a contract around $20 million annually. The Hornets have reportedly been unwilling to give Washington the long-term contract he is seeking, and the two sides are currently in a contract stalemate. If a financial deal can’t be reached, with Charlotte unwilling to budge on its stance or Washington agreeing to a shorter deal for less money, the Hornets’ options aren’t very appealing.

Washington could sign the qualifying offer, play out the year and then Charlotte risks losing him as an unrestricted free agent next summer -- the path Washington’s teammate Miles Bridges is taking. The Hornets could also work out a sign-and-trade.


A few years ago, restricted free agent forward Lauri Markkanen was in a similar situation, stuck in contract limbo with the offseason coming to an end. The Bulls weren’t willing to pay him. The Cavs were. The two teams brought in Portland as a trade conduit, finalizing a three-team deal that ultimately cost fan favorite Larry Nance Jr.

Could the Cavs pull off a similar coup?

Sources say even though Cleveland has expressed interest in acquiring Washington, and there’s a belief it is lurking, there haven’t been any extensive, detailed or meaningful trade discussions with Charlotte at this point.

Typically teams that complete sign-and-trades don’t get bulky return packages and it’s unclear what Charlotte would want. All-Star center Jarrett Allen is an obvious fit for a variety of reasons. But the Cavs have rebuffed offers for Allen throughout the offseason and it’s hard to see them viewing Washington as an appreciable upgrade, the kind of deal that would make Cleveland change its stance.

If Washington would be willing to take less money -- a contract in the same range as Markkanen’s $15-million-per-year number in 2021 -- the salaries of Dean Wade and Rubio would theoretically work financially. Toss in some second-round picks as sweeteners and there’s an alternate trade framework. But would it satisfy Charlotte?"
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#816 » by JMAC3 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 5:54 pm

JMAC3 wrote:https://www.cleveland.com/cavs/2023/08/do-cavs-need-another-point-guard-given-the-uncertain-ricky-rubio-situation-hey-chris.html

"Hey, Chris: How likely is a P.J. Washington sign-and-trade? What would the Cavs need to give up? -- Cavs fans everywhere

Hey, Cavs fans: Let’s start here: Sources say the 24-year-old Washington, who is a restricted free agent, is hoping for a contract around $20 million annually. The Hornets have reportedly been unwilling to give Washington the long-term contract he is seeking, and the two sides are currently in a contract stalemate. If a financial deal can’t be reached, with Charlotte unwilling to budge on its stance or Washington agreeing to a shorter deal for less money, the Hornets’ options aren’t very appealing.

Washington could sign the qualifying offer, play out the year and then Charlotte risks losing him as an unrestricted free agent next summer -- the path Washington’s teammate Miles Bridges is taking. The Hornets could also work out a sign-and-trade.


A few years ago, restricted free agent forward Lauri Markkanen was in a similar situation, stuck in contract limbo with the offseason coming to an end. The Bulls weren’t willing to pay him. The Cavs were. The two teams brought in Portland as a trade conduit, finalizing a three-team deal that ultimately cost fan favorite Larry Nance Jr.

Could the Cavs pull off a similar coup?

Sources say even though Cleveland has expressed interest in acquiring Washington, and there’s a belief it is lurking, there haven’t been any extensive, detailed or meaningful trade discussions with Charlotte at this point.

Typically teams that complete sign-and-trades don’t get bulky return packages and it’s unclear what Charlotte would want. All-Star center Jarrett Allen is an obvious fit for a variety of reasons. But the Cavs have rebuffed offers for Allen throughout the offseason and it’s hard to see them viewing Washington as an appreciable upgrade, the kind of deal that would make Cleveland change its stance.

If Washington would be willing to take less money -- a contract in the same range as Markkanen’s $15-million-per-year number in 2021 -- the salaries of Dean Wade and Rubio would theoretically work financially. Toss in some second-round picks as sweeteners and there’s an alternate trade framework. But would it satisfy Charlotte?"


If Washington is willing to take 15 per, feels like we would just keep him instead of trading him for a bunch of nothing. Article seems to be relaying that PJ still wants 20 and isn't budging. Feels like his agent is giving him bad advice to me. If he plays out the QO, there is no way he is getting close to 20 next year. He will be lucky to get 15, which will be a 7 million loss from this season.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#817 » by JMAC3 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 7:18 pm

If PJ takes the 8.4 million QO over a 4/60 from Hornets (hypothetical).

He will need to make 17.5+ million per year for that deal to make sense.
Which is more likely after this year?

He balls out on QO and gets multiple teams chasing him for 20+ million or they see him come off the bench for 40+ games on a fringe playoff team and give him a MLE offer?

Pretty much a 0% chance he gets over 25 million, but maybe a 20% he only gets offers in the 6-8 million range next offseason to me.

The QO just seems to have way more downside than upside for him.

All this is assuming he stays healthy too, which is usually a big reason to take the guarantees
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#818 » by HornetJail » Mon Aug 14, 2023 8:10 pm

JMAC3 wrote:If PJ takes the 8.4 million QO over a 4/60 from Hornets (hypothetical).

He will need to make 17.5+ million per year for that deal to make sense.
Which is more likely after this year?

He balls out on QO and gets multiple teams chasing him for 20+ million or they see him come off the bench for 40+ games on a fringe playoff team and give him a MLE offer?

Pretty much a 0% chance he gets over 25 million, but maybe a 20% he only gets offers in the 6-8 million range next offseason to me.

The QO just seems to have way more downside than upside for him.

All this is assuming he stays healthy too, which is usually a big reason to take the guarantees

yeah i don't see him getting so much more than $17.5M that it's worth gambling on it. The best case for him individually was exactly the opportunity he got this past season, where multiple players get hurt/suspended and he's thrust into the biggest role he can handle, allowing him to run up his stats... that's not happening in 2023-24.

Why turn down "set for life" money on the 10-20% chance that you can make significantly more on the open market next year? Even if you assume some random team chucks him 3/60 next year (the absolute most Houston, Washington, or Detroit, anyone starving for talent, could reasonably justify giving him), the total over four years becomes 4/68M. Charlotte guaranteeing him 4/~64 right now should be an easy yes for PJ. Don't take unnecessary risks over 1M/year.

I really wonder if the Hornets are still trying to get him for just over the MLE or something. Like if we're trying to sign him to 4/48, he may be better off taking that QO, because 3/40M won't be hard for him to make up on the open market next year.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#819 » by Chapelchilla » Mon Aug 14, 2023 10:04 pm

Would not offer $20 million per at all.
He probably hit his career highs last season and caps out at pretty good. Like Rozier. A bit short for his position and the whole Instagram babydaddy stuff does not make me think he is irreplaceable from a character perspective.
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Re: 99 Problems: The PJ Washington Jr. Thread 

Post#820 » by wilson115 » Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:12 pm

Jesus so we're back to where we started now? Good lord.

Well, I guess PJ's agent was banking on the ownership change loosening the purse strings. Me grasping at straws here.

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