Vincent already on the hot seat?

[zoned unc]

I know Ray has been struggling lately and many on here think we'd be better off with another point, but i'd just like to add some input on what i think is the main problem with Raymond this year:

"A 1-2 or a 2-1," Vincent said in response to a question about how the coach views Felton. "A combo guard who can play the point." Vincent has been using Felton as a point guard all season, but feels Felton is less aggressive when asked to be a ballhandler. He's also said Felton's development as a playmaker has suffered because he's been asked to play shooting guard this year. If that sounds like conflicting sentiments, that's because they are. Clearly Felton is an important part of the team, but Vincent really needs to settle him in at one spot.


Sam Vincent is a frikken idiot.


Raymond Felton, the point guard who lead a team of nba players to the national championship, outplaying Deron Williams, one of the best point guards in the game today, at 6-0 tall and a streaky, inconsistent shooter is being asked once again to play against guys 6-8" taller than him on a nightly basis.
WTF!?
I'm starting to wish we;d trade ray to a team with a competent coach that will actually let him play PG and learnt he position instead of mind screwing him on a nightly basis.

sorry for the rant, but it just pisses me off to see talent like his go wasted as a sub standard SG.

[W_HAMILTON]

Have you ever made a thread that didn't have this same title?

[W_HAMILTON]

PS - Bowens, I think some of the proof popped in.

As a side note, is anyone in the NBA nicknamed "The Proof?" I think that would be a cool name.

[zoned unc]

yeah, i've made a couple different versions, Ham.

sorry, i just felt the need to point out one of the most idiotic things i've ever read.


btw, your boy Brevin had a pretty decent game last night!

[W_HAMILTON]

I wouldn't know, I'm not a fan of players, I'm a fan of this team. When they leave this team, there's no reason for me to follow them any longer.

[BigSlam]

When we brought in an ex-point guard for a head coach and Ford as an assistant to help Felts we were all excited.

Yet Felts seems to have regressed.

I know that V has to shoulder some of the blame, but BB had to same issues with Felts that V has now. They both say that he has poor decision making, poor vision, doesn't get the ball to the right person in the right spot and pounds the ball too much.

One coach might be wrong, but two in a row?

This doesn't mean I want to see him playing SG - that's just wrong - but it's at least interesting that our two consecutive coaches identify the same weaknesses in Felts and those weaknesses haven't been improved on.

[zoned unc]

prolly because weve had 2 really crappy coaches in a row. Ray is not a SG. period. you have to be able to shoot to play that position. he's a damn good point guard when you have someone that knows how to use him. so far i havent seen anyone besides Roy williams that met that criteria.

[BigSlam]

Call me crazy, but I would have thought that a good PG would be a good PG regardless of who he is playing under. Isn't that one of the things that would make him a great PG?

I wouldn't have thought that you have to have a specific coach to make you great and only that one coach. Sure some playing styles will suit some PG's better than others, but if you are good, you show that you are good and leave it at that?

For instance - if you put Kidd in as our PG, do you think he would still suck with V as our coach?

[zoned unc]

No, but i bet you he'd actually be allowed to play the frikken position he was drafted to play. seriously, what harm is it going to do? it isnt like we are winning right now. stick ray out there at point for 30-35 minutes a game, bring in Carroll to spell J-Rich and Jeff for 5-10 minutes to spell Raymond. Ray when he's played PG exclusively has been pretty decent.
It's when he gets shuffeld around and forced to play D on guys 6" taller than him for half the game, getting posted up and banged that he's struggled.
let the guy sink or swim at the postion he was drafted to play. thats all i'm saying, quit trying to plug square pegs into round holes. we have a roster spot available, if we need a back up SG, go get one!

[BigSlam]

I agree with positional players. I like a traditional line up where your PG is your PG, your SG is your SG and your SF is your SF. I don't like it when you play your PS as your SG, your SG as your SF (although that is the one position we can do it because JRich can play both) and HATE it when we play our SF as our PF.

But if Felts can't run the point, if, like BB and now V have said, he has poor decision making, poor vision, doesn't get the ball to the right person in the right spot and pounds the ball too much then why play him at the point which could be to the detriment of the rest of the team?

I'm not saying that is the case and I sure as heck would rather him running the show than McMinus, but it's not like Felts hasn't been giving a LOT of chances to own the PG spot for us....................yet he still doesn't.

Why is that?

[Walt Cronkite]

I think you're missing the point. Ray has been given the keys this season, the reason McInnis has played so much is because he's the most true PG we have on the roster. THIS IS RAY SINKING, NOT SWIMMING. Ray is a square peg that we drafted to fit into a round hole.

[zoned unc]

good question.

and one i'm not sure about i know he never had those problems at UNC, and if he did he wouldnt play. Period. I know college ball is different than the nba but he did play with 5 other nba players on that team and ran an uptemp game, so that leads me to believe that the coach doesnt know how to coach or Raymond doesnt listen. Vincents comments lead me to believe that he the cause.

all i know is whats going on now isnt working.

[BigSlam]

I think you're missing the point. Ray has been given the keys this season, the reason McInnis has played so much is because he's the most true PG we have on the roster. THIS IS RAY SINKING, NOT SWIMMING. Ray is a square peg that we drafted to fit into a round hole.

So Walt you think that Felts is a natural combo guard that we tried to turn into a PG but it failed?

[Walt Cronkite]

Yea, I would feel comfortable saying that, although maybe "shoot first PG" is an easier title to deal with for some people?

Felton seems incapable of setting up an offense and finding easy shots for his teammates, but he is able to bail us out with the 3 and get easy looks for himself with his speed.

Here is where I think things get tricky, because in a way I agree with zoned that we should take away his water wings and make him play 99% of his minutes at PG, only taking him out to play spot minutes to McInnis and BK before him.

Had we done this for Felton's entire career, this wouldn't be a debate, we would all know that either a) we've found an important piece of the puzzle and Raymond is our stating PG or b)we have a guard capable of playing either spot but with a glaring weakness at each (pure point skills and hight respectably).

The reality of the situation exists in fans like Bowens, who understand that we aren't competing for a championship this season or next, but hate all of our players unless we win. Further, this can be exhibited in Zoned's rationale, where if Felton were to fail at PG in this "minimal minutes outside of the point" scenario it would be the fault of the HC for not utilizing his player properly.

It's a shame that we don't run a fast paced offense with McInnis injured or something. maybe this will happen during the 2nd half of the season and we'll be able to get a better hold on this situation.

It's easy to scapegoat the coaches for not properly utilizing their talent, but it is their job to win games with what they have...so unless Vincent is completely incompetent (could be) or we have a top secret tank plan (no one else is with Paydro and I on this one) it makes more sense that Felton may not have the day to day skills to be a starting PG in the NBA.

I'm rambling now, but what if we drafted Ben Gordon to be our starting PG? Okafor and Gordon worked in college, they were on a national championship team with NBA players that played an uptempo offense. Suppose Gordon had the same limited success Felton has had. Are they both NBA players? Yes. Are they capable of playing point? Yes. Starting there? Well...

[zoned unc]

great post Walt.

[fluffernutter]

Way down, like everyone else. I almost hate Felton at this point.

But I also want to be realistic.

The PG position is REALLY difficult to fill in the NBA.

Let's look at the Eastern conference.

Who, right now, would you trade for Felton, and put in charge of the team?

Or rather, what teams would AGREE to a straight swap for Felton? (their PG for Felton).

Atlanta - yes.
Orlando - yes, probably. Nelson has no fans left.
Miami - probably, their PG situation is a joke.
Cleveland - yes.
Knicks - probably a big hell yeah, not that we would allow it.
Chicago - Hinrich has been playing incredibly bad. Like 2x worse than Felton. At least a question here.


Milwaukee - ? No?
Philly - ? NO? I don't know.

Detroit - laughs
NJ - ha
Washington - right
Toronto - no way

I might have forgotten a few teams in there...

The point is, the PG position particularly in the East right now is VERY bad. And Felton is at worst an average point guard in the East.

Now, the problem is, Felton is a TERRIBLE shooting guard. He will always be short, not a good enough shooter, and a defensive liability vs. players 4-5 inches taller (at least).

Felton is also stil our 3rd best player, statistically, behind GWall/JRich.

He's vastly better than McMinus in how the team plays with him on/off the court.

My problem is this:

Felton is NEVER going to be an average shooting guard in the NBA. He's always gonna blow at that position.

Felton is ALREADY an average or slightly-below average PG, and might get better...so let's find out.

I'm tired of waiting, like everyone else, but..

THERE IS NOTHING TO BE GAINED BY PLAYING HIM AT SG, AND A CHANCE OF IMPROVEMENT AT PG!

Unless the team has totally given up on him as a player, that is.

Riddle me this, however: how come Felton and Okafor are both Sucking Incredibly right now? Is it coincidence? What is going on with the organization?

And what's up with Not playing Nazr? ????

[Paydro70]

I agree with Walt that we have an unfortunate situation in terms of talent evaluation. I think part of the problem is that Felton really isn't terrible at playing PG OR SG, or defending them. Right now he actually earns a higher PER at SG than PG, and though he allows a little more at SG, the difference is rather small. So there's plenty of reason for both camps to believe that Ray is a "natural" PG or SG.

I've started to come around to the "Ray is a combo guard" point of view. He's most comparable to Ben Gordon or LeAndro Barbosa... but without the deadeye 3pt shot, and with better distribution skills. If so, he's probably best off as a 6th man who plays 30 minutes or so a game, earning 15 or so behind a starting PG and 15 behind JRich (or with him if he slides to SF).

[zoned unc]

i'd be fine with that as well. as long as we stick to the friggin game plan. and i'd bet you that relegating ray to a back up position would piss him off enough to blow up.

[Paydro70]

See, I disagree Fluffer, Ray is not bad at playing SG. He's getting 16.9 PER at SG, equivalent to Monta Ellis. He's got an eFG% of .453 and still gets 6.6 assists/48. In addition, his turnovers drastically drop, and he fouls less.

He allows a better PER at SG, but 14.8 isn't bad, it's somewhere around how bad Ben Gordon has played so far this year.

[DaBassSource]

Yea, I would feel comfortable saying that, although maybe "shoot first PG" is an easier title to deal with for some people?

Felton seems incapable of setting up an offense and finding easy shots for his teammates, but he is able to bail us out with the 3 and get easy looks for himself with his speed.

Here is where I think things get tricky, because in a way I agree with zoned that we should take away his water wings and make him play 99% of his minutes at PG, only taking him out to play spot minutes to McInnis and BK before him.

Had we done this for Felton's entire career, this wouldn't be a debate, we would all know that either a) we've found an important piece of the puzzle and Raymond is our stating PG or b)we have a guard capable of playing either spot but with a glaring weakness at each (pure point skills and hight respectably).

The reality of the situation exists in fans like Bowens, who understand that we aren't competing for a championship this season or next, but hate all of our players unless we win. Further, this can be exhibited in Zoned's rationale, where if Felton were to fail at PG in this "minimal minutes outside of the point" scenario it would be the fault of the HC for not utilizing his player properly.

It's a shame that we don't run a fast paced offense with McInnis injured or something. maybe this will happen during the 2nd half of the season and we'll be able to get a better hold on this situation.

It's easy to scapegoat the coaches for not properly utilizing their talent, but it is their job to win games with what they have...so unless Vincent is completely incompetent (could be) or we have a top secret tank plan (no one else is with Paydro and I on this one) it makes more sense that Felton may not have the day to day skills to be a starting PG in the NBA.

I'm rambling now, but what if we drafted Ben Gordon to be our starting PG? Okafor and Gordon worked in college, they were on a national championship team with NBA players that played an uptempo offense. Suppose Gordon had the same limited success Felton has had. Are they both NBA players? Yes. Are they capable of playing point? Yes. Starting there? Well...

Walt I kind of lost some of your point...but I don't think Ben played point at Uconn. And Felton was a very good point at UNC. I agree that he has had a very hard time this year and I don't think he fits Sams system and BB really did not have much of a system. Will he ever be CP3 probably not...but in the right system I think he could be very good....for instance I think he would be good in Portland's system replacing Jack/Blake. Another thing that I find interesting is that I remember most scouts saying Felton was a "Pass first PG" coming out of UNC. Now he is "Shoot First"....??? I think it is the team/system that he is in...Put him with a big man that he is comfortable with and I think his decision making would look a lot better... Don't get me wrong he is doing some bonehead things these days...but what is our system...Pass to GW let him try something or pass to Jrich and let him shoot the three....or force it to Mek and pray ...or let Ray do a spin move and hope for a foul...WE ARE JUST NOT THAT GOOD OF A TEAM. It might be Ray's fault but if so trade him before he looses any value he might have...