okafor/chandler - share your thoughts (merged)

[nugentrk]

I personally think that our management screwed up that Diaw trade. He should have been had without us parting with Richardson in a salary dump type of deal. It probably could have been that one move that made us a playoffs team. Instead we made 3 lateral moves that net us 3 more wins. That 3 extra wins could be from replacing a rookie head coach, Sam Vincent with a Hall of Fame head coach.

Our front office buys low and sells low.

[Paydro70]

As far as building championship team, that's just how I think. Every player we have and every player we trade for or ship away I always analyze it in the context of, does this player have the skill sets required to be a part of a team that can go very far in the playoffs. I don't care about "baby steps." Baby steps is when you have a rookie and you give him time to acclimate himself to the NBA game. There is no "baby steps" when building a championship team, because you're either building a team to win, or you're just wasting everybody's time. Allen Iverson is an example of wasting everybody's time. Well at least mine and everyone who wants to build a team that can go far in the playoffs.

Having random role players like Raja Bell are really besides the point if your only goal is a championship. Aside from the 2004 Pistons, no team has won the title without at least one (usually two) hall-of-fame caliber players playing close to their peak: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Jordan, Hakeem, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. We don't have that guy.

If our goal is 100% title, then the answer is either to blow up this roster and tank for a high draft pick, hoping to nab a superstar, or to build some confidence in our organization so that a superb free agent looking to cash in on a max deal would actually consider us against another max offer from a more established squad. If we're going with plan B, we need to at least make the playoffs... and that's basically Walt's point. The baby step is simply making the playoffs.

Being 100% serious, what is the earliest you can possibly see the Bobcats winning a title given their current situation?

I would say 2012 is the very earliest, because that's when we have the cap space to sign a superstar and something resembling a core to surround him with (Wallace, Diaw and an older DJ and Hendo). Either that, or we've blown up the team, in which case our theoretical superstar (whoever... Favors, Monroe, Davis, etc.) has hopefully blossomed into something and we're looking to surround him with the pieces to compete. This also assumes that either Bob Johnson has changed his mind and is ready to spend, or an ownership change has taken place, which may or may not happen or be conducive to this plan.

So guys like Raja Bell and Allen Iverson really are only important insofar as they can get us TO the playoffs... they'll be retired by the time we're looking to win a title. If a championship is your only goal, you may as well stop paying attention for a couple years. In the meantime, "baby steps" is pretty much all we have to look forward to.

[catsandheels]

agreed we are not going to be able to win the championship until at least 2012 or probly even later at the rate our luck is at right now. As for the playoffs we are only a stud center or pf away. Hopefully Tyson will come through for us and get us to the playoffs without getting a injury. But even if we made the playoffs we are not a championship contending team we need a superstar that can help us and ajinca on steroids to give us heigh at downlow. If we can get atleast one star that will improve our team then i can see us as a contender. But as of now we have no one on our roster that can fill that spot.

[doc.end]

Having random role players like Raja Bell are really besides the point if your only goal is a championship. Aside from the 2004 Pistons, no team has won the title without at least one (usually two) hall-of-fame caliber players playing close to their peak: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Jordan, Hakeem, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. We don't have that guy..

But we have the coach Pistons had that year. So balanced team is not a surprise.

[Paydro70]

I don't see us making it to the Pistons' level of talent... and I also think banking on the plan of 1 team of the last 30 titles instead of the other 29 is a bad idea.

[spectre_]

This also assumes that either Bob Johnson has changed his mind and is ready to spend

Sorry to nitpick one comment in all that, but do you really think Johnson should go into luxury tax territory with a squad that hasn't even made it to the playoffs while losing money all over the place (granted a lot of it being their own fault)?

IMO spending shouldn't be a knock on the guy...at least not in the last couple of years.

Now...in regards to "championship contender". Up until this past season we have been a street ball team, and I use the word "team" very loosely. There's been no plan on the court and a pretty piss poor one off it. Saying we've only been in the league for 5 years is reason enough not to be contending, but we've only started building something to work off of for one freaking year.

Brown had a crap lineup to start off with, so "baby steps" are all we have right now. We're also not in a vacuum; selling tickets HAS to be considered. Getting into the playoffs HAS to be the first goal. If all anyone is looking for is "contender or blow it up" then I think they're going to be sadly disappointed becasue that vision doesn't jive with reality.

[spectre_]

I don't see us making it to the Pistons' level of talent... and I also think banking on the plan of 1 team of the last 30 titles instead of the other 29 is a bad idea.

Right now what else is there? We can't draft and we're not gettting Flash in Charlotte anytime soon.

How many teams have a coach like Larry Brown that can make a unit which plays like a well oiled machine? 5, maybe 10? That might not overcome a superstar, but that route goes a long way in overcoming the fact that you don't have one.

I still believe that if we'd had a legitimate backup 2 for the last 20 odd games we could have supplanted the Bulls as the 6th seed, we could have beaten Boston and most likely challenged Atlanta, possibly getting us into the 3rd round. That would have been one hell of an accomplishment...and that's all Larry Brown with the moves he's made (on and off).

Granted, that still isn't "contender", but as I said in the other post; contender and the Bobcats aren't terms to legitimately be used at this stage of our development.

[Paydro70]

This also assumes that either Bob Johnson has changed his mind and is ready to spend

Sorry to nitpick one comment in all that, but do you really think Johnson should go into luxury tax territory with a squad that hasn't even made it to the playoffs while losing money all over the place (granted a lot of it being their own fault)?

IMO spending shouldn't be a knock on the guy...at least not in the last couple of years.

I'm not saying I blame Johnson, but right now he's losing money and he wants to sell the team. So either he succeeds in doing that, or he changes his mind and is OK with losing money or wants to stick it out until it is profitable. I wasn't really intending to comment on his decision.

Now...in regards to "championship contender". Up until this past season we have been a street ball team, and I use the word "team" very loosely. There's been no plan on the court and a pretty piss poor one off it. Saying we've only been in the league for 5 years is reason enough not to be contending, but we've only started building something to work off of for one freaking year.

Brown had a crap lineup to start off with, so "baby steps" are all we have right now. We're also not in a vacuum; selling tickets HAS to be considered. Getting into the playoffs HAS to be the first goal. If all anyone is looking for is "contender or blow it up" then I think they're going to be sadly disappointed becasue that vision doesn't jive with reality.

I agree on these points.

[Paydro70]

Right now what else is there? We can't draft and we're not gettting Flash in Charlotte anytime soon.

I agree with you about championship contending... it's not a goal we can pursue anytime soon, and it makes sense to have the intermediate goal of selling tickets and establishing our franchise as one that is not a joke. But if we are really thinking about how to win down the road, I don't think the "balanced talent" model is a good one.

How many teams have a coach like Larry Brown that can make a unit which plays like a well oiled machine? 5, maybe 10? That might not overcome a superstar, but that route goes a long way in overcoming the fact that you don't have one.

I still believe that if we'd had a legitimate backup 2 for the last 20 odd games we could have supplanted the Bulls as the 6th seed, we could have beaten Boston and most likely challenged Atlanta, possibly getting us into the 3rd round. That would have been one hell of an accomplishment...and that's all Larry Brown with the moves he's made (on and off).

Granted, that still isn't "contender", but as I said in the other post; contender and the Bobcats aren't terms to legitimately be used at this stage of our development.

I am not sure we actually disagree about anything. When I wrote all that stuff about contending ASAP it was in response to Battery's comments about being 100% championship motivated and how that makes him think about players like Iverson, JRich, etc. My point was that even if he's right, most of those players are not going to be relevant by the time we're actually going to win a title (i.e., no sooner than 4 years from now), but they can help with the intermediate goal of making the playoffs. I agree with Battery that the title is always the goal as a fan, but I am generally with you that there has to be a long-term view on that goal, and achieving financial strength and a solid reputation as a franchise that can win are steps along that path.

[spectre_]

We don't, and I know I got in halfway thru the conversation. It probably wasn't fair to quote your post (2nd one)...should have just posted mine without it.

For you being a stats guy and me mostly working off the "feel-o-meter" I think we usually agree on a lot of things. I do tend to be a cup half full type of guy when it comes to the Bobcats and that's usually where we differ a little.

Look at the cap position we're going to be in next year (bad). We're pretty much stuck with this roster unless we make some wild trade...and odds are if we do that it'll just add long term salary. After next year we'll be in a position to really re-tool, so IMO this and possibly next year should be dedicated to making the playoffs and re-evaluating this roster...esp. in regards to Felton, DJ, Crash, Boris & possibly Brown. I even suggested on BCP that the QO for Felton might be best for the Bobcats this year; if he doesn't make more strides S&T him for a trade exception and a 2nd next summer. We'd most likely be worse...but then we get a higher pick (assuming we lose it to Minny this year). Then, we'd have a very low salary, a promising rook and that TE from Felton.

I don't know that I'd like that scenario, but the situation is playing out if we would want to go that way.

There is an "out" if the players we have can't get the job done.

[fatlever]

okafor hasnt developed
http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wireta ... ped_game/#

“He just hasn’t added up to the devastating package we thought he might be.’’

[Battery]

okafor hasnt developed
http://basketball.realgm.com/src_wireta ... ped_game/#

“He just hasn’t added up to the devastating package we thought he might be.’’

Tyson Chandler>>>>>>>Emeka Okafor

Hey New Orleans, good luck with that realgm overrated stiff.....and bad contract.

Yup, I said it.

[thruthefire]

Battery, how are the Bobcats building a championship team by trading Okafor for Chandler? I guess, since they get a ton of cap relief in two years, it helps. As far as on the court play, it doesn't.

[SWedd523]

Battery, how are the Bobcats building a championship team by trading Okafor for Chandler? I guess, since they get a ton of cap relief in two years, it helps. As far as on the court play, it doesn't.

Correct. The trade doesn't help us, as far as on the court play, but it doesn't really hurt us either.

He also saves us money. It's worth it guys!

[Paydro70]

Our long-term plans obviously depend a lot on how this season goes. If we make the playoffs, we'll probably bring back Felton (whether he's gotten better or not), and then we have a bunch of nice expirings (Radman and Nazr, probably we'll want to keep Chandler at that point) that might turn into someone good that hopefully makes us something that resembles an ECF team.

If we miss the playoffs again, then IMO it's time to tank. Let Felton walk, trade Wallace for prospects/picks, try to move Chandler/Diaw, keep the Radman/Nazr expirings, and lose badly in the 2010-2011 season, hopefully picking up a top 5 pick. Then we have a couple of remaining assets (Henderson, Augustin, maybe Ajinca/Brown, most likely Diaw, and our picks (other than the one we probably lose to Denver)), 20m+ in cap space, which we can hopefully blow all in one place on Melo (har har har) or something.

[Paydro70]

Sorry, that post was in response to Spectre not Fats.

It's great that an unnamed NBA exec thinks Okafor hasn't gotten any better. It's patently false that he hasn't improved since he was drafted... he shot .441 his rookie year. What you can say is that he peaked at 24... which isn't terribly unusual. It's not even like he's a disappointment for the #2 pick, he's performed above expectations for that slot.

[W_HAMILTON]

When you come into the league doing something that only a handful of guys do each year, there isn't much room to improve. Okafor's rookie PER was higher than all but three of Chandler's eight seasons. Okafor's career PER (17.7) is higher than any single season from Chandler.

Would I trade a guy that averages 2ppg and improves to 5ppg over his career (over 2x scoring improvement!) for a guy that comes into the league averaging 30ppg, but never gets any better?

I don't think I need to answer that.

Just because Okafor isn't Shaq doesn't mean he's not better than 90%+ of the alternatives out there.

[Rich4114]

Last time I checked, averaging a double double and being in the top 5 or 6 guys in the league in that category makes you pretty damn good. He's not an offensive force, and nobody ever said he was. But he did what his specialties were very well and we will probably miss that contribution from him.

[Battery]

Having random role players like Raja Bell are really besides the point if your only goal is a championship. Aside from the 2004 Pistons, no team has won the title without at least one (usually two) hall-of-fame caliber players playing close to their peak: Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Wade, Garnett, Jordan, Hakeem, Isaiah, Bird, Magic, etc. We don't have that guy.

I don't look at Raja Bell as some "random role player." I look at him as an extremely hard working player who sets a positive example for the rest of the team. He's what Bill Parcells calls a "hold the fort guy." Which means while you're building up your team, you need hard working coachable veterans who lead by example and are willing to do whatever the coach asks, in order to lay the foundation of how a successful organization should operate. This is how you build up a franchise.

If our goal is 100% title, then the answer is either to blow up this roster and tank for a high draft pick, hoping to nab a superstar, or to build some confidence in our organization so that a superb free agent looking to cash in on a max deal would actually consider us against another max offer from a more established squad. If we're going with plan B, we need to at least make the playoffs... and that's basically Walt's point. The baby step is simply making the playoffs.

Our goal is not 100% title because that requires a lot of luck. Our goal is to build a successful franchise that year in and year out has the ability to go deep into the playoffs. A place where good players want to come because things are run right and you have a chance to win every night. Baby steps are not simply making the playoffs, baby steps are laying the foundation of how a successful franchise should be run.

Being 100% serious, what is the earliest you can possibly see the Bobcats winning a title given their current situation?

No clue. Let's work on making sure the foundation is solid.

I would say 2012 is the very earliest, because that's when we have the cap space to sign a superstar and something resembling a core to surround him with (Wallace, Diaw and an older DJ and Hendo). Either that, or we've blown up the team, in which case our theoretical superstar (whoever... Favors, Monroe, Davis, etc.) has hopefully blossomed into something and we're looking to surround him with the pieces to compete. This also assumes that either Bob Johnson has changed his mind and is ready to spend, or an ownership change has taken place, which may or may not happen or be conducive to this plan.

No superstar will come here unless the foundation is solid.

So guys like Raja Bell and Allen Iverson really are only important insofar as they can get us TO the playoffs... they'll be retired by the time we're looking to win a title. If a championship is your only goal, you may as well stop paying attention for a couple years. In the meantime, "baby steps" is pretty much all we have to look forward to.

Iverson isn't a hold the fort guy. He's selfish and uncoachable, a bad example for his teammates and certainly not someone you want around when building up your franchise.

[catsandheels]

right now i think our FO main focus should be on makin the playoffs. Like some of you guys have said there is no way we could even make it to the championship this year. Before we set our focus on winning the championship we need to make it to the playoffs and get our team some respect which we have little to none of right now. Right now the only way we could get a star on our team is via trade or draft. WE need a guy to build our franchise around we thought okafor was going to be that one guy but a few years later we realise that wasnt going to happen so now we are lookin for someone to fill those shoes. Hopefully Tyson Chandler can be that franchise big man we are looking for that we can build our team around unlike we could with okafor. If we can get that 1 guy that can help us get some respect and make the players around himi better. Then we could get 1-2 other guys that will work in our system. We would then be able to get deeper into the playoffs then wea could with our team right now. Then before you know it we could become a larger market then we are right now and then get some stars and we would be a contender for the championship and bring a title to charlotte.