okafor/chandler - share your thoughts (merged)

[thruthefire]

Battery, I don't think Raja's as valuable as you make him out to be, but I pretty much agree with everything else you said. Unfortunately, you were saying something completely different a couple of pages ago.

[Battery]

Battery, I don't think Raja's as valuable as you make him out to be, but I pretty much agree with everything else you said. Unfortunately, you were saying something completely different a couple of pages ago.

Just because Raja might be too old and not around when our team is good enough to compete for a championship, don't think for one second that he won't have made a positive impact on some of the younger players on our team as they progress through their careers. It's a chain reaction and that is why you need to start with a solid foundation.

If you have players like Okafor who are too busy working on their pecs and not their game, that sets a bad example and is a crack in the foundation. Okafor has shown by his actions that he's not into being coached. SV had a problem with it, so did LB, and it won't be long before Byron Scott (who is no joke and doesn't mess around) publicly says so too. We need players who LOVE basketball, work extremely hard all year round on their game, and are always willing to be coached.

Now Okafor might wake up in New Orleans because that team has a solid foundation of players and coaches who understand what it takes to win in the NBA. If he has pride in himself and doesn't want to get embarrassed he will make the necessary changes in the way he approaches his career. I doubt it because he seems very stubborn, but you never know, with some players it doesn't kick in until later on.

And the way the NBA is nowadays with all of these players entering the league so young, you need solid veterans who set a positive example. These youngsters are resistant to coaching. I think that's one of the things Okafor was missing when he entered the league. He never had that veteran to show him how to prepare himself to take his game to the next level. And this is why we need guys like Raja around to help prepare DJ, Henderson and the rest of our younger players to take their games to a higher level. But in order to get there, it takes serious commitment and dedication all year round. Those are the types of players we need.

[spectre_]

I think Battery described Raja's contribution exactly right.

[Paydro70]

Let me say that before I start that I really appreciate your comments here, Battery. I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot, you're more thoughtful than I gave you credit for initially and I am sorry I gave you the wrong impression that I am stats only or am not really dedicated to seeking a Bobcats title.

I don't look at Raja Bell as some "random role player." I look at him as an extremely hard working player who sets a positive example for the rest of the team. He's what Bill Parcells calls a "hold the fort guy." Which means while you're building up your team, you need hard working coachable veterans who lead by example and are willing to do whatever the coach asks, in order to lay the foundation of how a successful organization should operate. This is how you build up a franchise.

You're right that he can serve as an example, but he's still a role player on the court, and that's my only point. If the goal is only to win a title, Bell is probably irrelevant. If our goal is to build a franchise, as you've suggested, then I guess he can be an asset.

Our goal is not 100% title because that requires a lot of luck. Our goal is to build a successful franchise that year in and year out has the ability to go deep into the playoffs. A place where good players want to come because things are run right and you have a chance to win every night. Baby steps are not simply making the playoffs, baby steps are laying the foundation of how a successful franchise should be run.

I agree with all of this, until the last sentence. I think making the playoffs at all is a statement as to how the franchise is run... it's very hard to demonstrate success and competence without making the playoffs. So if a player like Iverson, who admittedly will not lead us to a title if only because of timing, can help us with that intermediate goal, than I advocate that so it can help us down the road.

Iverson isn't a hold the fort guy. He's selfish and uncoachable, a bad example for his teammates and certainly not someone you want around when building up your franchise.

I disagree about Iverson in all parts (though obviously I see where you're coming from), but especially that I don't think we'd be "building up" around him necessarily by signing him. He'd be a short-term help that could definitely make the difference that would make us a playoff team.

[CatNation]

How people can call Iverson selfish is beyond me. Its like an entire career based on playing through pain and giving it all on the court went to **** for one season with a bad fit team.

[thruthefire]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-4 ... epers.html

[Bassman]

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-43-49/The-High-Grade-Sleepers.html

Well I guess that settles it!

I have said Okafor will work out pretty well having a guy like West beside him and a great PG in the mix, but don't expect miracles. Don't expect domination. Mek will give them the consistency they need in the post on most nights, but wilt in the playoffs when facing the better and best 5's in the league. No knock on the man...I just don't think he will find a way to win those battles.

Chandler will also not become dominant here. Not sure what he'll bring, but I do believe (if healthy) he will come to play every night and be a difference maker in key moments of ballgames. Is that any different from Mek? Probably not enough to be measurable (at best).

Time to call it a day on this discussion until training camp and the games begin.

[Battery]

Let me say that before I start that I really appreciate your comments here, Battery. I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot, you're more thoughtful than I gave you credit for initially and I am sorry I gave you the wrong impression that I am stats only or am not really dedicated to seeking a Bobcats title.

No need to apologize as I never take anything I read on forums personally. But I do appreciate the kind words. We just have different opinions on how to build a team. You could say I'm more "old school," while you're more of the "new school" of thought.

Believe me, I cannot "stand" the stat heads in my baseball discussions too. And they have waaay more firepower to work with because a lot of how we judge baseball players is based on stats.


OPS

[spectre_]

POINTS ALLOWED PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Year Chandler Okafor
2006 100.4 124.5
2007 98.3 113.1
2008 107.9 123.8
2009 121.0 124.9
(LEAGUE AVERAGE CENTER = 124.9 PA/100)

How good is the "points allowed" stat?

[nugentrk]

Even if Chandler is in fact better than Okafor, how much of that difference is because of playing along side Chris Paul and David West? But in 06 Chandler was in Chicago. Chandler’s teammates have always been better than Okafor’s teammates.

[floppymoose]

POINTS ALLOWED PER 100 POSSESSIONS
Year Chandler Okafor
2006 100.4 124.5
2007 98.3 113.1
2008 107.9 123.8
2009 121.0 124.9
(LEAGUE AVERAGE CENTER = 124.9 PA/100)

How good is the "points allowed" stat?

points allowed per possession is a great stat for measuring defense, because it takes pace out of the equation, and it also gives teams that generate lots of turnovers a fair shake. opp fg% shafts those teams, because you are only measuring the possessions the opponent didn't turn it over.

but it's a team stat, not an individual stat. i would take a look at things like how the opp. ppp changes when Chandler/Okafor were on/off the court for their teams, and at some of the more basic stats like how defensive rebounding changed, percent of shots blocked changed, opp fg% changed, and opp turnover rate changed. Then you need to figure out who was on the floor when those guys were off, and make some kind of judgment about how much of the difference was due to the backup being bad rather than the starter good, etc. It's all tangled up. But you can still reach some interesting conclusions about players that way.

[thruthefire]

Even if Chandler is in fact better than Okafor, how much of that difference is because of playing along side Chris Paul and David West? But in 06 Chandler was in Chicago. Chandler’s teammates have always been better than Okafor’s teammates.

The fact that he didn't put up better numbers than Okafor even though he played next to an all-star power forward and the best point guard in the game should be a red flag for anyone thinking he's going to make more of an impact here than Okafor. I guess it depends on how one measures impact, but he certainly won't put up better numbers.

No question Chandler's teammates have been better. I don't think people realize how important Chris Paul was in the pick and roll. Raymond Felton is a good pick and roll player, but he's not nearly the scoring threat that CP is coming off of pick and roll's.

[Paydro70]

I never really got OPS, it seems like a pretty random stat. VORP or RC are pretty compelling to me though. Very true that baseball has much more to work from, it's so much easier to do statistical analysis of such an individual sport.

[spectre_]

Yeah I don't think I'm too high on it either. If it's points allowed by the team when said player is on/off then it's pretty much the same as the generic +/-...which has way too many holes to be a "legitimate" stat. Starters get put in with a 4 man 2nd unit and he usually suffers in both.

On the flip, the +/- with starters (the one where our starting 5 was 6th in the NBA last season) I see as a much more telling stat as we know who was on the court with whom.

[Battery]

I never really got OPS, it seems like a pretty random stat. VORP or RC are pretty compelling to me though. Very true that baseball has much more to work from, it's so much easier to do statistical analysis of such an individual sport.

The mental picture of you sitting in front of a computer loaded with stats is....frightening. Please, for your own sanity, (and mine) stay away from baseball. I can't take those debates with you.


VORP

[Paydro70]

I don't really follow baseball, so no worries. I just wish it was possible to do the sorts of things SABRmetricians can do in basketball.

[Walt Cronkite]

we'll get there, even if we have to change the game to do it...