Denver reporter: Nuggets may need to break up the team

[Dubnation]

Is there some unwritten rule that a champ must repeat or threepeat? I don’t think most appreciate the difficulty in doing that. There is a reason why it doesn’t happen often. It’s damn near impossible with competent strategists who make their living figuring out ways to counteract and nullify any roster or scheme advantage.

People with their ridiculous expectations are comical.


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No all they need to do an add a player like KD.

Like the Suns and Nets did?


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[HotRocks34]

Now I want to say this -- Denver went through some apparent changes this year in that they seemed to be trying to be less Jokic-centered as the season wore on and opponents started to refine how they worked to take away Jokic.

Jokic had a period of time during the season when he was struggling and he felt like he wasn't getting foul calls.

Over time, the approach seemed to be less "Takeover Jokic" and more "use Jokic with increased frequency as a decoy and make defenses pay for loading up against Jokic."

Jokic looking passive now, IMO, has a lot to do with adjusting to that style. He expects to get swarmed now and he is trying to find open guys and avoid offensive fouls.

The strategy can't work with Murray hurt, other ball handlers are scarce, etc. If the defense sells out on Jokic, the others have to exploit it.

The problem is that Murray is hurt, and Minny's recovery is so good that they have been able to both swarm and get back to their man. It's impressive.

Also, Minny has been picking up some full court and that has wrecked Denver's offense by draining the shot clock as well as it's exposed Denver's lack of ballhandlers.

There are real issues here. Minny deserves all the credit but Denver needs solutions.

And the solutions may not reside in the current roster, or the core of that roster.

Denver's front office has to figure out if they feel the current core can handle what Minny is doing to them now, as the team moves into the future.

[JM00n69]

Lol.

Jokic is 28, Murray is 26, MPJ is 25 and Gordon is 28...let's break up this nice proven core who are all about to reach their collectives primes...how smart.

Jokic is 29, Murray is 27.

Gordon will be 29 and MPJ 26 before next season starts.

Hang on, that means they will all be a year older than that before the start of the season after next. Am I getting this right? And also they were all a year younger before the start of this season. I see it now, this guy is onto something here. Blow it all up now. Maybe trade them all for some 2080/2081 picks. Make sure we get enough time to really develop that young core for the year 3000.

[JonFromVA]

I hope people realize it's been as while now since a champion has repeated. You tweak, you develop, you hope luck breaks your way.

[shrink]

I agree that the Wolves will get expensive, I’m surprised that a Denver fan who has watched the playoffs would think McDaniels (team-leading +40) was an overpay. The Wolves didn’t sign Gobert to that contract, but the DPOY has clearly been worth his deal also considering how he’s turned this franchise around defensively.

Does anyone think these deals are bad contracts, or that other teams wouldn’t trade for these “overpays?”

Of course, McDaniels is a strong role player (emphasis on role player). The point is, you don't pay a role player who's averaging under 10 ppg nearly $30M/year. It's an overpay because no one else could justify paying him that kind of money. He's obviously not there to score. He's there to play defense. It's still not a logical move. The TWolves bit the bullet and paid him (knowing full well the consequences of the decision two years down the line) because they needed him in this matchup and his length is important for their defensive system.

I feel like 3/D salaries have gotten out of control as evidenced by Jaden, even if he is superb at what he does. Even if it will never happen in a million years, the sheer audacity of Patrick Williams's people to float mid-to high 20s in AAV is insanity - and it's mostly because he fills that wing 3/D archetype.

People say, "oh that's the market for that kind of player!" so expect to shell out big money. But how many have asked themselves, why? The market isn't always right. I don't see any clear and obvious connection to this type of player and building a winner. I feel like the ones that get paid a ton and are on winners have only gotten the bag once a star / elite to elite-ish nucleus is already present. I can't think of any examples where the high-end, highly paid 3/D guy is there early as part of the foundation. They're absolutely valuable, but to George's point - i do think they get overpaid.

Do you guys think McDaniels ($22.5 next year) is having an impact on this series?

More of an impact than max-deal Michael Porter Jr ($33.4)?

[GeorgeSears]

Of course, McDaniels is a strong role player (emphasis on role player). The point is, you don't pay a role player who's averaging under 10 ppg nearly $30M/year. It's an overpay because no one else could justify paying him that kind of money. He's obviously not there to score. He's there to play defense. It's still not a logical move. The TWolves bit the bullet and paid him (knowing full well the consequences of the decision two years down the line) because they needed him in this matchup and his length is important for their defensive system.

I feel like 3/D salaries have gotten out of control as evidenced by Jaden, even if he is superb at what he does. Even if it will never happen in a million years, the sheer audacity of Patrick Williams's people to float mid-to high 20s in AAV is insanity - and it's mostly because he fills that wing 3/D archetype.

People say, "oh that's the market for that kind of player!" so expect to shell out big money. But how many have asked themselves, why? The market isn't always right. I don't see any clear and obvious connection to this type of player and building a winner. I feel like the ones that get paid a ton and are on winners have only gotten the bag once a star / elite to elite-ish nucleus is already present. I can't think of any examples where the high-end, highly paid 3/D guy is there early as part of the foundation. They're absolutely valuable, but to George's point - i do think they get overpaid.

You think McDaniels ($22.5 next year) is having an impact on this series?

More of an impact than max-deal Michael Porter Jr ($33.4)?

It looks good in hindsight because his defense has proved valuable in this series against this particular team. It's also worth mentioning that he's averaging 2.5 ppg in two games. In any other situation, you wouldn't overpay for a player like this, who is good at what he does, but not great overall.

However, if the ultimate goal is to take out the Nuggets, which I believe was Tim Connelly's objective, then you pay Ant and KAT the max, you pay Gobert $40M/year, you overpay McDaniels $26M, and you take that cap hit in the near future because you need to do that to compete.

[shrink]

I feel like 3/D salaries have gotten out of control as evidenced by Jaden, even if he is superb at what he does. Even if it will never happen in a million years, the sheer audacity of Patrick Williams's people to float mid-to high 20s in AAV is insanity - and it's mostly because he fills that wing 3/D archetype.

People say, "oh that's the market for that kind of player!" so expect to shell out big money. But how many have asked themselves, why? The market isn't always right. I don't see any clear and obvious connection to this type of player and building a winner. I feel like the ones that get paid a ton and are on winners have only gotten the bag once a star / elite to elite-ish nucleus is already present. I can't think of any examples where the high-end, highly paid 3/D guy is there early as part of the foundation. They're absolutely valuable, but to George's point - i do think they get overpaid.

You think McDaniels ($22.5 next year) is having an impact on this series?

More of an impact than max-deal Michael Porter Jr ($33.4)?

It looks good in hindsight because his defense has proved valuable in this series against this particular team. It's also worth mentioning that he's averaging 2.5 ppg in two games. In any other situation, you wouldn't overpay for a player like this, who is good at what he does, but not great overall.

However, if the ultimate goal is to take out the Nuggets, which I believe was Tim Connelly's objective, then you pay Ant and KAT the max, you pay Gobert $40M/year, you overpay McDaniels $26M, and you take that cap hit in the near future because you need to do that to compete.

McDaniels is leading the Wolves at +40 in the two games. Isn’t that the goal?

[GeorgeSears]

You think McDaniels ($22.5 next year) is having an impact on this series?

More of an impact than max-deal Michael Porter Jr ($33.4)?

It looks good in hindsight because his defense has proved valuable in this series against this particular team. It's also worth mentioning that he's averaging 2.5 ppg in two games. In any other situation, you wouldn't overpay for a player like this, who is good at what he does, but not great overall.

However, if the ultimate goal is to take out the Nuggets, which I believe was Tim Connelly's objective, then you pay Ant and KAT the max, you pay Gobert $40M/year, you overpay McDaniels $26M, and you take that cap hit in the near future because you need to do that to compete.

He is leading the Wolves at +40 in the two games. Isn’t that the goal?

He's proving his worth against the Nuggets.

The point I'm making is, If the goal is beat everyone else except the Nuggets, it doesn't make sense to sign McDaniels to $26M/year on top of paying Rudy $40M, and maxing KAT and Ant knowing it's going to put the team in a tough cap situation in a couple of years. Paying McDaniels that kind of money is basically paying for an anti-air missile (or anti-Nuggets missile). His worth pays off in this particular series. Obviously, he'll be good in other series as well (he was good against Phoenix), I'm not saying he's just there to beat the Nuggets. But you're overpaying so you can take out the Nuggets. He's probably worth closer to Naz Reid's salary, who is just as valuable.

[shrink]

It looks good in hindsight because his defense has proved valuable in this series against this particular team. It's also worth mentioning that he's averaging 2.5 ppg in two games. In any other situation, you wouldn't overpay for a player like this, who is good at what he does, but not great overall.

However, if the ultimate goal is to take out the Nuggets, which I believe was Tim Connelly's objective, then you pay Ant and KAT the max, you pay Gobert $40M/year, you overpay McDaniels $26M, and you take that cap hit in the near future because you need to do that to compete.

He is leading the Wolves at +40 in the two games. Isn’t that the goal?

He's proving his worth against the Nuggets.

The point I'm making is, If the goal is beat everyone else except the Nuggets, it doesn't make sense to sign McDaniels to $26M/year on top of paying Rudy $40M, and maxing KAT and Ant knowing it's going to put the team in a tough cap situation in a couple of years. Paying McDaniels that kind of money is basically paying for an anti-air missile (or anti-Nuggets missile). His worth pays off in this particular series. Obviously, he'll be good in other series as well (he was good against Phoenix), I'm not saying he's just there to beat the Nuggets. But you're overpaying so you can take out the Nuggets. He's probably worth closer to Naz Reid's salary, who is just as valuable.

Okay, three things.

1. The Wolves didn’t sign him to just take out the Nuggets. McDaniels has been one of the league’s best defenders, taking on the hardest assignments for every team, and he can guard wings 1-4 effectively. If you watched the Wolves first playoffs, he neutralized Devin Booker for three games too. In fact, the NBA leaders for +/- for all teams are +88 McDaniels, +88 Ant, +80 Tatum, +80 Conley, +74 Gobert, +74 Daniels

2. I think you may be limiting his value by classifying him as 3-and-D, and not on his impact. I think you are under on the estimate. In fact, the Trade Board polled estimates before he got his $26 mil a year. The majority correctly voted $25, and almost all pegged him between $20 and $30

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2311635&hilit=mcdaniels+contract

3. Finally, just because McDaniels focuses on defense, that does not mean he can’t score. He had 25 points in Game 2 vs PHX. But keeping Booker from blowing up is more important for the Wolves. I would also point out that this contract is locked in from age 23-28, and improvement is likely.

[BigGargamel]

"Breaking up the team" isn't as easy as people always think it is. You aren't getting an upgrade on Murray or MPJ. Both are very highly paid and are probably better on the Nuggets roster than they would be elsewhere. No one is going to give up premium talent for either one of those guys. Same with Aaron Gordon.

KCP has a 15 million dollar option he will pick up.

So how exactly will Denver "break up the team" and get another superstar? This is the roster they have going forward, at least for the next year. Just have to hope Murray can stay healthy and they can improve the bench. It's not easy with no wiggle room under the cap and no tradable picks.

Repeating is hard, the Wolves are very good. The Denver reporter is just hunting for clicks. Sure, upgrading is always the plan but sometimes it's not feasible. If the guy would come up with some solutions or options then I might take him seriously. But a general blanket statement like that means nothing.

[Dubnation]

"Breaking up the team" isn't as easy as people always think it is. You aren't getting an upgrade on Murray or MPJ. Both are very highly paid and are probably better on the Nuggets roster than they would be elsewhere. No one is going to give up premium talent for either one of those guys. Same with Aaron Gordon.

KCP has a 15 million dollar option he will pick up.

So how exactly will Denver "break up the team" and get another superstar? This is the roster they have going forward, at least for the next year. Just have to hope Murray can stay healthy and they can improve the bench. It's not easy with no wiggle room under the cap and no tradable picks.

Repeating is hard, the Wolves are very good. The Denver reporter is just hunting for clicks. Sure, upgrading is always the plan but sometimes it's not feasible. If the guy would come up with some solutions or options then I might take him seriously. But a general blanket statement like that means nothing.

This. All of the above. If it were that easy to repeat, the Dubs would be running a tenpeat.

[canada_dry]

Its not a blow up as much as it is retooling around jokic. The idea will never be to take a step back, with Whatever moves made(if any) im sure it would be with the intentions of continuing to compete with joker with better fitting pieces.

Maybe a true second star? How about that? Wild thought.

Of course they can just improve the bench with real depth pieces and be done with it which i think is more likely to happen.

And go into the offseason having real conversations with a guy like Murray. Hey. We know you werent healthy. But you're consistently out of shape in the regular season and we believe that might have something to do with the injuries. It also has something to do with you just not being as good in the regular season and making 0 all stars. We want thebbest fir you and You need to take on the challenge and come into the offseason in the absolute best shape of your life, and you need to maintain that Throughout the year.

If that happens all this talk is out the window.

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[Ol Roy]

Aaron Gordon (lob threat/dirty work) and Michael Porter Jr. (three-point spacing) are perfect in their roles. Yes, they are off-ball players. That's what you want around Jokic.

I'm not sure how much you can realistically upgrade from KCP. He is also an excellent shooter.

The problem is that Murray's performance fluctuates wildly and that they don't have a good bench.

[WentzerWuver]

You really think Mitchell is a upgrade over Murray?

lol

Everyone’s numbers better when they the first option - why does this point allude people

Spida is an upgrade over Jamal and would beat him one on one 9 out of 10 times. Jamal has that clutch gene going for him in the 4th quarter, but I would take Spida all day long to build my team around as my Batman while Jamal is just a Robin tossing heat pads like a baby cause Batman doesn't let him drive the bat mobile Lol

https://youtu.be/Vr6gACml4h0?si=LOISY40eAFa0825S

No one could stop da Spida(man) last night.

Yeah people who think that Spida wouldn't be a massive upgrade from Murray are straight up delusional

These posters must be drinking up their Jamal Kool-Aid while tossing heat pads like a new fad thing to do.

https://youtu.be/al3x5ISASfQ?si=2zyAcJVp3EzVTXzm

Jamal can only dream of doing this ^

[CobraCommander]

Spida is an upgrade over Jamal and would beat him one on one 9 out of 10 times. Jamal has that clutch gene going for him in the 4th quarter, but I would take Spida all day long to build my team around as my Batman while Jamal is just a Robin tossing heat pads like a baby cause Batman doesn't let him drive the bat mobile Lol

https://youtu.be/Vr6gACml4h0?si=LOISY40eAFa0825S

No one could stop da Spida(man) last night.

Yeah people who think that Spida wouldn't be a massive upgrade from Murray are straight up delusional

These posters must be drinking up their Jamal Kool-Aid while tossing heat pads like a new fad thing to do.

https://youtu.be/al3x5ISASfQ?si=2zyAcJVp3EzVTXzm

Jamal can only dream of doing this ^

Spida a good player but dude just had Rudy and a squad in Utah and was best offensive player on a bad team just like Murray would be -

These are a bunch of just barely better than Bradley Beal volume scorers - damn near interchangeable offensively -

The scoring guard - Beal, CJ, Spida, Murray, etc etc need a number one option but put them on a bad team and they worth a max deal or damn near… but you ain’t winning anything with these guys

[JM00n69]

BUMP

[WentzerWuver]

BUMP

Don't bump this dumb thread unless you want to be banned.

[JM00n69]

BUMP

Don't bump this dumb thread unless you want to be banned.

Go play in traffic darling

[Wallace_Wallace]

Is there some unwritten rule that a champ must repeat or threepeat? I don’t think most appreciate the difficulty in doing that. There is a reason why it doesn’t happen often. It’s damn near impossible with competent strategists who make their living figuring out ways to counteract and nullify any roster or scheme advantage.

People with their ridiculous expectations are comical.


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No all they need to do an add a player like KD.

Like the Suns and Nets did?


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If the Suns got KD the year after they lost to the Bucks in the finals, a roster of Paul/Booker/Bridges/KD/Ayton with Payne/Johnson/Crowder/McGee off the bench would be pretty overwhelming.

While they wouldn’t be 2016-2017 Warriors, but no one would be able to make them sweat.

[LeBronSpaghetti]

The Nuggets core is obviously great but they’ve always had the issue of mental lapses. When they’re locked in they’re extremely good. But they often are way to “chill” and like to “let the game come to them” instead of coming out aggressively from the jump.

Thats why they choked away the 1 seed in that awful loss to the Spurs in the last week of the season. It’s also why everyone who says “make Jokic a scorer” is completely wrong. Jokic is at his best when he’s like “**** you I’m scoring every single time” and so too with the Nuggets as a team. The alternative is them being passive and nonchalant and that’s when they’re very vulnerable.