Arvydas Sabonis vs Jokic

[Mirotic12]

No, I agree with you, I didn't meant to say that you claim he had no skill, but I have meant that there were people in the past who said he was very raw early on, using your basic narattive, but using it badly, implying like he learned the game only after injuries and that Portland Sabas was his prime. While that is debatable, I think 20 year old Sabonis trully was his best form, and it is a shame he was not durable, because yes, he probably would have ultimately peaked as 27-29 year old veteran, like most players. Altho he rebounded his career well and maintained high level, all passed 1987 was kind off on damage control. Good player, greater legend and what if story. Not only that he debuted in the NBA while already in his 30s, but also because he never had a chance to reach his prime.

Sabonis' peak was in the mid to late 90s. He peaked in his last season with Real Madrid, and in his first few NBA seasons. He was a much better player then than he was in his early 20s. His early 20s was his athletic peak, but it most definitely was not his basketball peak.

Arvydas Sabonis is basically a mythical figure at this point. Due to injuries it's hard to tell how could he really could have been, so he's in that Len Bias category somewhat in terms of he's as good as you want to think he could be.

But the reality it what he did on the court was nowhere near the level of the greatest big men of all time, so it's all hypothetical.

Haha yup. Over the years on here of having this discussion. I think I may have watched every video available online to watch of Sabonis by now. Because I kept hearing of this mythical beast.

7’3, but more athletic than prime David Robinson, stronger than prime Shaq, better defender than Hakeem. Then on offense he was a better passer and more skilled than Jokic, to go with the physical dominance of Shaq.

Yet I’ve yet to see a single video of this mythical beast. Don’t get me wrong, the videos of younger Sabonis are impressive, but I’ve yet to see this mythical beast who is arguably the greatest at every aspect of being a 5.

The greatest mythological Paul Bunion players in world basketball history:

Among "international" players:

Arvydas Sabonis (might as well just call him Euro Wilt - probably Sabonis killed a Russian bear in the woods with his bare hands or something)
Oscar Schmidt
Nick Galis
Drazen Petrovic

Those international players above were all very great players, but some of the myths and legends about them are absolutely ridiculous. There is a hyperbole to an extreme for some reason with the myths and legends of those players. They have all been made out to be many, many times greater and better than they actually were by all of these ridiculously stupid and completely factually wrong myths.

[MrGoat]

Peak Sabonis was taller, stronger Jokic with elite athleticism. It's a shame we never got to see him in the NBA until after he was already a shell of his former self thanks to injuries

[dygaction]

I bet if Jokic were to lose the series, the next question would be between Domantas Sabonis and Jokic.

[Handlez]

To be fair, Sabonis was never given the keys to a franchise in his prime.

Jokic is the first of his kind...a big Euro that an NBA coach finally decided was good enough to run everything through. I suppose Dirk was first, but Jokic is a different animal.

Big Euros have always been assumed to not be good enough to run through, but Malone changed the game.

[sisibilio]

How many people have seen Sabonis's peak ? Because it was not in the NBA.

Sabonis was an athletic freak for his size and a better defender for sure.

I would take Jokic on offense, he is a better shooter and passer (but Sabonis was a good one too).

I have seen it cause I am from Lithuania and an Euro ball fan first and foremost. Arvydas was definitely much better than Divac, and he outpaced Tkachenko pretty quick. That said, he was injuries guy, what was even his prime? Obviously his young Zalgiris days is the answer, but he never really was a freak freak. He was good rim protector and he was posterizing guys, but Arvydas was 7'3 and long, dude barely needed to jump to put guys in a poster. And altho he famously killed Admiral just in one half of a game, but over the long season and different type of match ups, guy like Robinson had different things to offer, he was way faster and bouncier than Sabonis. Sabonis definitely played in an era he was suited for, would he be better today is up for a debate. I think on one hand, coaches would lean more to idea of running offense entirely through him, but on the other hand, other offenses would make it harder for him on defense.

This is problem with all the people here talking about Sabonis's peak. There are 2 peaks for him. His athletics peak was as he was young and not so good as overal player. It ended when he was 22-23 years old with Achilles' tendon and other injuries.

Then there was his basketball peak when he was imobbile but dominated with skill and BBIQ. And that is pretty much Portland Sabonis.

Unfortunatelly those 2 peaks never overlaped.

Young Sabonis was already as good of a shooter and passer as in his NBA. If anything he was a bit hot headed at times and looked disinterested cause he had nobody to challenge him in Europe.
That said, Jokic is in a whole different level as playmaker, and that's what makes him unique.
E

[KrAzY3]

Drazen Petrovic

I will say this though, Petrovic is in the least a very interesting what if. He usage in the NBA steadily went up, and his three point shooting was insane.

It is worthwhile to debate if he could have become Steph Curry before Steph became Steph. HIs final season (still in his 20s) he scored a career high 22.3 PPG on .449 shooting from three. Curry won an MVP shooting .443 while average 23.8. Petrovic is the fourth highest three point shooter of all time, and he's the highest scorer on the list until you reach Steph Curry several spots down.

So I do wonder what it would have been like if he'd made it long enough for the NBA to move the 3 point line closer, or if he'd become a more high volume three point shooter. However, it doesn't reach the point where we debate if he's better than Michael Jordan and that's the kind of silliness we see with Sabonis.

[JustBuzzin]

Damn from Jokic vs MJ to Jokic vs Sabonis.


Oh my how the mighty has fallen.

Who's next on the hypetrain Ant?

[Lalouie]

sabonis has no ring

and might never get one

[SweaterBae]

Young Sabonis was like a Walton and Shaq mashup, I don’t know what you do with that.

I was trying to think of a mashup comparison and couldn't. Well done.

[UcanUwill]

Drazen Petrovic

I will say this though, Petrovic is in the least a very interesting what if. He usage in the NBA steadily went up, and his three point shooting was insane.

It is worthwhile to debate if he could have become Steph Curry before Steph became Steph. HIs final season (still in his 20s) he scored a career high 22.3 PPG on .449 shooting from three. Curry won an MVP shooting .443 while average 23.8. Petrovic is the fourth highest three point shooter of all time, and he's the highest scorer on the list until you reach Steph Curry several spots down.

So I do wonder what it would have been like if he'd made it long enough for the NBA to move the 3 point line closer, or if he'd become a more high volume three point shooter. However, it doesn't reach the point where we debate if he's better than Michael Jordan and that's the kind of silliness we see with Sabonis.

Drazen is prime example that American NBA had a prejudice. Man was scoring 80 points in old continent, and it took years for him to even get NBA playing time. What if he just left before that? everyone would have just said he sucked and Euro greats sucked. Well, he didnt actually suck, when he was given a chance, he was elite offensive player in the NBA.

Still happens today, a lot of it is luck and opportunity, and altho all truly best players now play in the NBA, the talent difference between NBA and other leagues is clear, sometimes I think fans just write of decent players, because their stint in the NBA was unsuccessful. He didnt make here that one time, it means hes trash... there are far more factors sometimes, its not some kind of basic video game where coach gets his roster and sees the OVR of his players, and just play the ones that have bigger numbers.

I have watched PAO - Maccabi game 5 yesterday, talent level is clearly way below NBA, altho as entertainment product, to me, that game was more enjoyable than any NBA game this season, due to flow, pacing. atmosphere, emotion and officiating. But that game still had immensily quality players. Euroleague really came a long way, when you look at these top teams, their bench warmers are FIBA superstars in a lot of cases. Grigonis is third best Lithuanian player right now, often even better than Domantas Sabonis, and he is there for spot minutes just running around without the ball. When Baicherowski plays for Poland, we all get mad that guy went undrafted and is not in the NBA, but he is DNP-CD in Euroleague now, even Ponitka averages like 5 minutes per game nowadays. Right now, for national teams, having quality player from Euroleague is almost as impressive as having NBA players.

Kalaitzakis I cant figure out currently. He played such phenomenal defense yesterday, I was wondering could that translate to NBA playoffs? He is like 6'9 and was like glue on Lorenzo Brown, you cant even split against guy like him. But the problem is he really very active with his hands, too active, where I could see more talented face up NBA stars finding fouls against him easily, baiting their way into shooting fouls etc. But if he figures that out, you could put him on SGA right now, and who is he? A nobody, a guy who is there to give few minutes of breather to star players. Ataman subs Sloukas out for 5 minutes, Kalaitzakis - you in, just play defense, try not to get us into red too much while Sloukas resting...

[JasonStern]

Different eras. Jokic is better in today's game due to shooting from range. But Sabonis would win in the physical era of centers. Both are all-time greats.

[moderndarwin]

This is a whole lot closer than people would like to admit. Peak prime young Sabonis would absolutely be able to guard Joker. And guard him better than anyone playing today by a country mile. And he’d also be able to score pretty easily on him on the other side. Faster, stronger, taller, etc.

Jokic probably still would have the better overall stats because he’s so damn efficient against scrubs.

But in a head to head series I’ll take young prime whoops on david robinson sabonis

[mowcrowbar]

Who's the better player in thier Prime?

Jokic is already the best player in the decade. What has Sabonis done in the NBA? He's only known for his international career, so how his earlier years would've translated in the NBA is still not proven. So I'll go with the proven superstar any day.

[Mirotic12]

Kalaitzakis I cant figure out currently. He played such phenomenal defense yesterday, I was wondering could that translate to NBA playoffs? He is like 6'9 and was like glue on Lorenzo Brown, you cant even split against guy like him. But the problem is he really very active with his hands, too active, where I could see more talented face up NBA stars finding fouls against him easily, baiting their way into shooting fouls etc. But if he figures that out, you could put him on SGA right now, and who is he? A nobody, a guy who is there to give few minutes of breather to star players. Ataman subs Sloukas out for 5 minutes, Kalaitzakis - you in, just play defense, try not to get us into red too much while Sloukas resting...

Both of the Kalaitzakis twins are huge disappointments. They have so much pure physical talent. They are very long and athletic for guards, and have great defensive instincts. They can pressure the ball really well and play very tough and physical defense.

Georgios is a very good ball handler and creator, but he can't shoot outside of mid range. Panos is a good shooter, but he doesn't have much offensive ability other than that. Still, with their physical tools and size for guards, they should both be much better by now. Two very big disappointments for Greek basketball so far.

With that being said, they are really good defenders, and with their size, athleticism, good lateral movement, and length, they can pretty much cause problems on defense for just about anyone. Panos was giving Team USA absolute fits last year with his ball pressure.

[Knightfall]

Love Jokic. Legit 3x MVP. Saba was bigger, faster, stronger, better defender, shoot 3s and pass great also. People who played with him said he was either one of the best Cs ever or flat out one of the best players ever. From what I saw of him I'd have to go with Sabonis.

[KembaWalker]

I’ll take the guy who’s doing it over the guy that hypothetically could have done it. From the Sabonis I saw in Portland, he was fine at some random flashy cute trick passes which is great but that’s not really the same thing as being the engine behind an entire offensive modern system. There’s having the vision and creativity to make a nice pass but the massive decision tree Jokic is capable of running to generate good offense on the same actions over and over and over is just not comparable

[Ryoga Hibiki]

People talk so much BS about Sabas prime.
A healthy Sabonis with his late teens/early 20s mobility and the experience and poise he developed in his late 20s/early 30s might have been a top10 player ever.
But that player never existed, his prime might have been in his late Real Madrid/early Portland years when he was the healthiest since a decade and still able to move a bit.
And please watch those two games against Robinson in 86 and 88. He was good but it's not like he totally dominated, the two were at a similar level. That's great, but it was just a few games so pls pump the breaks

[Ryoga Hibiki]

The greatest mythological Paul Bunion players in world basketball history:

Among "international" players:

Arvydas Sabonis (might as well just call him Euro Wilt - probably Sabonis killed a Russian bear in the woods with his bare hands or something)
Oscar Schmidt
Nick Galis
Drazen Petrovic

Those international players above were all very great players, but some of the myths and legends about them are absolutely ridiculous. There is a hyperbole to an extreme for some reason with the myths and legends of those players. They have all been made out to be many, many times greater and better than they actually were by all of these ridiculously stupid and completely factually wrong myths.

I don't know what the myth about Drazen is supposed to be, but the guy was super legit.
The way he got there was also super impressive, in particular the mental fortitude to reach the top and then accept to restart facing all the prejudice. He then worked on his body, his defense, focused on his strenghts and became an all nba level guy.
I think he would have had a legit chance to peak as a top10 guy, as he could have brought back the handling and passing game he had in Europe as he became an established star in the NBA.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Drazen Petrovic

I will say this though, Petrovic is in the least a very interesting what if. He usage in the NBA steadily went up, and his three point shooting was insane.

It is worthwhile to debate if he could have become Steph Curry before Steph became Steph. HIs final season (still in his 20s) he scored a career high 22.3 PPG on .449 shooting from three. Curry won an MVP shooting .443 while average 23.8. Petrovic is the fourth highest three point shooter of all time, and he's the highest scorer on the list until you reach Steph Curry several spots down.

So I do wonder what it would have been like if he'd made it long enough for the NBA to move the 3 point line closer, or if he'd become a more high volume three point shooter. However, it doesn't reach the point where we debate if he's better than Michael Jordan and that's the kind of silliness we see with Sabonis.

second behind Kennard now, from the current 3pt distance. Kerr and Davis padded their stats in the mid 90s

[Wallace_Wallace]

If Greg Oden was healthy, would you take him over Bill Russell? There’s actual footage of a full game where both Al Horford and Joakim Noah were being used for fouls and had no answers for him on born ends.

Same with Len Bias, is he better than Jordan if he never did what he did?