No Thread on Kidd beating teams with good Coaches?

[Fencer reregistered]

A coach can screw up a good team a lot easier than make a bad team good. How hard is it to win with Luka and Kyrie and Luka and Brunson? But when you do what he did in Game 4 against the Clippers bench both centers and make Maxi the main rim protector who proceeded to get cooked, that's a negative for his team. I think coaches in the NBA are mostly overrated. Spo getting the Heat to the Finals as the 8th and 7th seed was an exception, but how hard was it to win a championship with prime Lebron, Wade and Bosh? Phil Jackson 11 rings but he had MJ, Pippen, Kobe, Shaq, every championship Pop won he had Tim Duncan etc...

Kobe, MJ and Shaq have a combined 1 ring without Phil and they had many coaches before and after him. Shaq only won with another great coach in Riley.

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

Jackson didn't create the triangle offense. He just hired the man who perfected it. (Tex Winter)

Jackson deserves approximately as much credit for that as Doc Rivers deserves for Thibs' defense in 2007-10. Hiring the right guy and backing him is not nothing, but it's also not a great personal achievement in Xs and Os.

[EmpireFalls]

If Mavs win last night someone's bumping this thread to flex on Kidd, but I'm actually going to defend Kidd here.

Luka/Kyrie combined for 60 ppg in the regular season, last night they combined for 27. Mavs missed 11 free throws, Thunder missed 1 and somehow this was a close game. Should have been a blow out. Mavs lead about 95% of the game.

Mavs look to me to be the best defensive team in the League even over Minnesota. But man does offense suck right now. The coach didn't make Luka be out of shape and have a sprain knee though.

I think Kidd actually deserves some blame for last night, he let the 4th go on far too long without a clear offensive plan. The 3 mins without scoring should never happen with their firepower.

He’s given Luka and Kyrie too far of a leash to just self create… and I understand why, due to their talent, but part of being a coach is realizing when your guys DON’T have it and putting them in a better position. IMO he should’ve just spammed the PnR with rim runners and/or PJ, the lob to Lively was there all game.

All that being said if his team hits any free throws or if Luka/Kyrie aren’t absolute crap they win pretty easily. So it’s hard to really put this on Kidd.

[tamaraw08]

Kobe, MJ and Shaq have a combined 1 ring without Phil and they had many coaches before and after him. Shaq only won with another great coach in Riley.

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

Jackson didn't create the triangle offense. He just hired the man who perfected it. (Tex Winter)

Jackson deserves approximately as much credit for that as Doc Rivers deserves for Thibs' defense in 2007-10. Hiring the right guy and backing him is not nothing, but it's also not a great personal achievement in Xs and Os.

You really think Phil used the Triangle 100% of the time his players were on offense?
That he made ZERO tweaks, esp shifting from MJ to Shaq as the focal point regarding spacing?
What about the X's and O's on defense? You think Phil just said "ok boys play man to man and block or bother their shots?
What about in game adjustments?

[Fencer reregistered]

Right but let's say those Bulls teams had another coach, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have won championships, or Kobe/Shaq Lakers, or Duncan with Pop. Maybe the amount of championships was greater because of Phil or Pop, impossible to say because it's hypothetical. Although I do give Phil credit for creating the triangle offense. You can't say that about most coaches though they usually just run the same schemes other coaches do.

And people say "Jordan won nothing before Phil" Well he didn't have Scottie until 88, and then he was a rookie averaging 8 ppg. Those weren't great Bulls teams by any stretch in the 80's. Phil was there in 89 and 90 (actually he was hired as an assistant in 87, but that isn't quite the same) and they still couldn't win until 91. But again I probably give Phil more credit than any coach due to creating the triangle offense. But that doesn't mean Bulls would have not won in the 90's at all without him.

Like with Duncan do I think Duncan could have won championships without Pop? Yes, do I think Pop would have won on those Spurs teams without Duncan? No. It's a star driven league.

Jackson didn't create the triangle offense. He just hired the man who perfected it. (Tex Winter)

Jackson deserves approximately as much credit for that as Doc Rivers deserves for Thibs' defense in 2007-10. Hiring the right guy and backing him is not nothing, but it's also not a great personal achievement in Xs and Os.

You really think Phil used the Triangle 100% of the time his players were on offense?
That he made ZERO tweaks, esp shifting from MJ to Shaq as the focal point regarding spacing?
What about the X's and O's on defense? You think Phil just said "ok boys play man to man and block or bother their shots?
What about in game adjustments?

Tex Winter was with him all the way.

And he was famous for not making adjustments in at least some timeouts, to the point that he might just call one and let the players talk among themselves.

[KodiakBear]

For that to happen, RealGM would have to admit he's a great coach, which historically, this board has been totally contrast in opinion to that.

Personally, I believe he's being carried by Luka, which is why the voters got it wrong with the MVP this year. That or Kidd really is the COTY with how he's contain Kyrie from derailing this team. I'm giving Luka the credit for that though.

This is the NBA. All coaches are carried by their star. Gregg Popovich is supposedly the greatest coach ever, but has had 5 straight losing seasons. Doesn't take away what Kidd has done. In Dallas he has arguably won 3 playoff series against more talented teams; Utah(the Mavs were up 2-1 without Luka), 1seed Phoenix and the higher seeded Clippers.

Kidd is definitely proving me wrong. I was a huge doubter of his coaching abilities after his failed Milwaukee stint.