True or False on the MVP award

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed May 15, 2024 12:56 am

From what I have seen generally you need to be considered a top 3 minimum top 5 player in the league to have any serious consideration for the MVP award?

I just thought that Jokic got MVP award over Shai simply because he’s a better player.

And I do think there is a really huge correlation between skill/talent/ability and value

ChiTownHero1992 · Post #2 » by **ChiTownHero1992** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:01 am

I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #3 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:33 am

ChiTownHero1992 wrote:I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

They had him for a pretty decent portion of the season though

Special_Puppy · Post #4 » by **Special_Puppy** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:33 am

I don't really understand the question. How is how good a player is not determined by how valuable they are? Are we just making the distinction that value/impact can vary depending on the role and situation?

ChartFiction · Post #5 » by **ChartFiction** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:37 am

ChiTownHero1992 wrote:I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

They are 31-8 with Embiid.
They are 16-27 without Embiid.

The reason they were still a playoff team is because they were so great with him that he built up a large buffer for them.

Philly is probably the most compelling example of player impact since we have half the season with the player and half without the player rather than conjecture with what-ifs.

jfs1000d · Post #6 » by **jfs1000d** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:56 am

ChiTownHero1992 wrote:I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

U take embiid off 76ers for full season they get top 5. They were horrible without him.

Jokic is also best player.

The above is what hurts Tatum. Celtics probably 44 wins without him

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mdonnelly1989 · Post #7 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Wed May 15, 2024 1:57 am

Special_Puppy wrote:I don't really understand the question. How is how good a player is not determined by how valuable they are? Are we just making the distinction that value/impact can vary depending on the role and situation?

It would have to be considering everyone knows Jokic is ththe best player in the world.

And yet Shai had some strong consideration.

Not to mention the amount of times Lebron didn’t win when he was the undisputed best player in the league.

LordCovington33 · Post #8 » by **LordCovington33** » Wed May 15, 2024 2:00 am

ChartFiction wrote:
ChiTownHero1992 wrote:I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

They are 31-8 with Embiid.
They are 16-27 without Embiid.

The reason they were still a playoff team is because they were so great with him that he built up a large buffer for them.

Philly is probably the most compelling example of player impact since we have half the season with the player and half without the player rather than conjecture with what-ifs.

Yep. Anybody who thinks the sixers are still a playin team with Embiid has no idea of the real situation.

EmpireFalls · Post #9 » by **EmpireFalls** » Wed May 15, 2024 2:05 am

Bit of a chicken or the egg tbh. You have to be a top 3-5 player to win MVP, OK sure. Well how do you win MVP? you have to play like a top 3-5 player…

Myth · Post #10 » by **Myth** » Wed May 15, 2024 2:07 am

ChiTownHero1992 wrote:I can understand that for the most part...however it should be voted on exactly as the name of the award is Most Valuable...

Take Jokic off that Nuggets team, what are they, likely a Top 5 pick in the draft? Clearly the most valuable!
Take Shai off the the Thunder, they're not a Playoff time by any stretch but still decent and have good young pieces.
Take Embiid off the 76ers and they still snuck into the playoffs.

It all should be determined with that mindset and IMO it not always is thought about like that.

I think it is more complicated than this. This method of evaluating who should get MVP favors whoever simply has a worse backup.

Special_Puppy · Post #11 » by **Special_Puppy** » Wed May 15, 2024 2:08 am

mdonnelly1989 wrote:
Special_Puppy wrote:I don't really understand the question. How is how good a player is not determined by how valuable they are? Are we just making the distinction that value/impact can vary depending on the role and situation?

It would have to be considering everyone knows Jokic is ththe best player in the world.

And yet Shai had some strong consideration.

Not to mention the amount of times Lebron didn’t win when he was the undisputed best player in the league.

Yeah I guess it depends on how you define BITW vs MVP. BITW more of a multi-year label with a slant towards the post-season.

jus a fan · Post #12 » by **jus a fan** » Wed May 15, 2024 2:14 am

I cannot say Westbrook Or Nash were top 5 players the year they won.
But the case can be made that they deserved the Most Valuable Player Awards.
The media narrative is necessary to win the award

I think this is the point of this thread

kuclas · Post #13 » by **kuclas** » Wed May 15, 2024 3:33 am

It all depends. There are some outliers like Derrick rose. He was on a 62 win team. He didn’t have any momentum like all nba the previous season. Shai time will come. This is his second straight year he will be all
NBA first or second team. Probably first team.

Guys like embiid Giannis and jokic are clearly in the top 3-5 nba players the past 3-4 seasons. Shai is just there.

We are just in the post lebron era (lebron was the best player in the world from 2008/9-2018 give or take). Let’s be real about that. Just like MJ was the best player in the world from 1988-1996 (minus the 1.5 years in baseball)

Before that it alternated between bird and magic.

Jokic been the best the last 3-4 seasons. Prior to that Giannis.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #14 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Thu May 16, 2024 12:37 am

jus a fan wrote:I cannot say Westbrook Or Nash were top 5 players the year they won.
But the case can be made that they deserved the Most Valuable Player Awards.
The media narrative is necessary to win the award

I think this is the point of this thread

I think a serious consideration for WB top 5 the year he won it. Also think Rose had an argument too.

Nash on the other hand is the only one who maybe the real outlier. But I can’t recall that long ago.

Kobe
Wade
Duncan
KG
Dirk

Who else?

mdonnelly1989 · Post #15 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Thu May 16, 2024 12:38 am

kuclas wrote:It all depends. There are some outliers like Derrick rose. He was on a 62 win team. He didn’t have any momentum like all nba the previous season. Shai time will come. This is his second straight year he will be all
NBA first or second team. Probably first team.

Guys like embiid Giannis and jokic are clearly in the top 3-5 nba players the past 3-4 seasons. Shai is just there.

We are just in the post lebron era (lebron was the best player in the world from 2008/9-2018 give or take). Let’s be real about that. Just like MJ was the best player in the world from 1988-1996 (minus the 1.5 years in baseball)

Before that it alternated between bird and magic.

Jokic been the best the last 3-4 seasons. Prior to that Giannis.

I think D Rose was at minimum a top 10 player and had a serious case for top 5. Much like Tatum right now.