Jokic is not the best in the world, and has been heavily overrated (NOW YOU CAN CHANGE VOTES)

[_NoMas]

I feel what this forum is missing is an Embiid Vs Jokic debate

[eyeatoma]

Your whole story is based on what if Embiid was ever healthy and you're talking about facts?

So you have no actual reply to me countering your statement saying he was only good against weak teams. Carry on.

It's pointless, you don't care about facts.

To the contrary sounds like you don't.

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[Los_29]

How are you going to argue Jokic over Embiid last year?

Seriously? 24.5ppg 9.8apg 11.8rpg .701 TS%, and not to mention led his team to a title.

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Obviously he was better in the playoffs, but we're talking regular season MVP here. Jokic didn't really have a case over embiid who led the league in scoring by a lot.

We are discussing who should’ve won the MVP. The MVP award is not given to the person who scored the most points. It’s awarded to the person that they believe is the most valuable player to their team.

Also I’m a big fan of Luka but he’s averaging 30+ a game in the playoffs on a TS% of 56%. Jokic is averaging 27/12/8 on a TS% of 62% and has made a far greater impact. Not particularly close at all.

[dautjazz]

How are you going to argue Jokic over Embiid last year?

Seriously? 24.5ppg 9.8apg 11.8rpg .701 TS%, and not to mention led his team to a title.

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Obviously he was better in the playoffs, but we're talking regular season MVP here. Jokic didn't really have a case over embiid who led the league in scoring by a lot.

Statically Jokic was better than Embiid. Scoring is not the only stat that matters, if it was then Russell, Magic, Nash, Unseld and others would have no MVPs

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[MiamiSPX]

These meltdowns by Embiid and Luka fans are fascinating to watch.

[NZB2323]

Healthy Luka and Embiid are at least equal to Joker. If he wins this title then he will have earned an edge

Haha yes, he'll definitely need 2 titles to "earn an edge". Let's ignore the fact that Luka/Embiid are injured because they are lazy and don't take care of their bodies like Jokic does.

Plus, Jokic's performances in the playoffs are in a tier of their own and neither Doncic nor Embiid have any all-time great games like the one he had last night or for most of last season's playoffs (30/14/10 over 20 games).

I think any non-casual can come to an agreement that right now it's Jokic's world and we're all living in it.

We don't need to have silly discussions about whether he's better than Embiid or Doncic (hint: he is), but rather we need to discuss where he belongs on the pantheon of the GOATs.

Luka has the highest PPG in playoff history. He has many better performances than Jokic. In the playoffs this isn't even a discussion, Luka is simply better.

Actually, Jordan is 1st.

But Allen Iverson is 3rd and LeBron is 6th. Do you have AI ranked ahead of LeBron?

Mitchell is 7th and Curry is 12th. Do you have Mitchell ranked ahead of Curry?

Young is 15th and Hakeem and Kobe are 18th and 19th. Do you have Young ranked ahead of Hakeem and Kobe?

Embiid is 24th and Kareem and Shaq are 28th and 29th. Do you have Embiid ranked ahead of Kareem and Shaq?

Brunson is 35th and Larry Bird is 37th. Do you have Brunson ranked ahead of Bird?

Carmelo is 39th, Bradley Beal is 42nd and Wilt is 46th. Do you have Carmelo and Beal ranked ahead of Wilt?

Derrick Rose is 53rd and Tim Duncan is 71st. Do you have Rose ranked ahead of Duncan?

Ben Gordon is 78th and Magic is 94th. Do you have Gordon ranked ahead of Magic?

George Carter is 100th and Kevin Garnett is 133rd. Do you have Carter ranked ahead of KG?

Phil Chenier is 134th, Doug Moe is 137th, Warren Jabali is 138th, Zelmo Beaty is 141th and Pippen is 149th. Do you have those guys ranked ahead of Pippen?

Don Ohl is 169th and Bill Russell is 181st. Do you have Ohl ranked ahead of Russell?

If we look at some other stats:

Playoff PER
Jokic: 1st
Luka: 9th

Playoff WS
Jokic: 49th
Luka: Not in the top 250

Playoff VORP
Jokic: 26th
Luka: 85th

Playoff BPM
Jokic: 2nd
Luka: 4th

Luka is a great player, but to say he's simply better in the playoffs is just wrong.

[Impuniti]

And this post is even worse than the other 2.

Caleb Martin last year averaged 19/6 on 60/50/90 shooting in the Conference finals, you ready to hand him a Max contract?

How are you comparing a 16/9 performance to someone who averaged 33? Or pretending as if Murray has never had a great series?

Just because one guy plays above his level for a fewgames doesn't change the fact that Nikola has done the most with least in the modern NBA.

The point of bringing up his team mates is because yall are clowning him when they don't show up, when he doesn't get the consistent help that other players get. It's all about consistency, no one cares if you had a Linsanity moment, everyone would much rather have Chris Paul year round.

And as the past couple threads have beaten to death, Jokic isn't playing with this all time great cast, and people need to stop acting like he does. "The Nuggets are a great team!" narrative is just trash, a way of discrediting an ATG compared to his peers who when they win it's "look at that carry job, Shaq in 01 LeBron in CLE!" and when they lose it's "LeBron needs more help! Kobe needs more help!"

Jokic and Steph seem to be held to a different, and in my opinion, higher standard than other stars. So yes, what Jokic is doing playing with a bunch of unaccomplished, non alltar/All NBA/MVP players, needs to be pointed out and heralded

I always appreciate strong confidence that's paired with total ignorance.

Jokic and Murray net rating on off in the 23' playoffs

+12 - Jokic on, Murray on
+3 - Jokic off, Murray on
-6 - Jokic on, Murray off
+14 - Jokic off, Murray off (38 mins, too small a sample to actually matter)

Remove Murray from the conversation
+9 - Jokic on vs off
+5.5 - Jokic off

Jokic's team last season has absolutely stepped up and been elite last postseason. Eye test and data both back this up. No Steph or Lebron team has ever had a +5.5 with either of them off the floor during a playoff run (25 season sample put together), including that 16-1 PS run with Steph & KD. Does this automatically mean that Jokic's team last PS was better than every team those 2 have been on? No, that's we use context and common sense with data. But this horrible take that Jokic played with a mediocre to crap team last season is not only factually wrong, it's a completely stupid take.

No one is arguing the team is bad or not good, but simply comparing his team mates relative to other championship rosters and ATG players. You're bringing up of Steph and KD together just proves that point. One player playing out of his mind doesn't change anything, most people wouldn't even take Jamal in the Top 10 PG's.

Players have nice runs, that 20 game sample size doesn't all of a sudden wipe out 400+ games of sample size that shows us what Jamal is capable of.

It's takes like that which get guys like Tim Thomas, Duncan Robinson and Tristan Thompson contracts 2-3x bigger than they're worth.

The fact of the matter is, Jamal is not an all-star, MPJ is not an all-nba player, and Aaron Gordon is not a former MVP.

We will all wait patiently for your response showing us the last player to ever win a title with that type of supporting cast. It's unpresendented

He averaged 26PPG on 63% TS in the 19-20 post season. That's two years, a 40 game sample. Outside of being clutch in a few games this PS, he's been awful this PS though. The fact of the matter is that Jokic hasn't had an all star teammate so far. It's also a fact of the matter that the 2 years Denver competed for rings, his team played elite basketball with or without him.

I agree that expecting Murray to play like that over and over again isn't realistic, but the team has been great in the playoffs only the years which Jokic's teammates were playing at a supremely high level. You can your fact, which is no all stars in a championship. And I'll note that Steph and Lebron's teams in 25 postseasons put together, never had their team be as good on the court without either of them. Despite them playing with many all stars, MVPs and FMVPs championship teammates.

[DimesandKnicks]

Whether those guys are good defenders is dependent on whether those things they do well ultimately result in them having significant positive impact overall defensively. In the case of Jokic, his many defensive strengths demonstrably result in him having significant positive impact overall defensively, so he is a good defender.

He’s bad at too many things that significantly impact his team and the way they play defense to be considered a “good” defender.

He doesn’t protect the rim, he isn’t a good post defender, he can’t defend in space. He has elite hands and is an elite rebounder but as an actual defender it looks like he has to many flaws that the team’s defense has to scheme around. In game 6 during the 3rd quarter when Reid and Kat were on front court they went to a combination of a zone or putting Jokic on Jaden Mcdaniels. At one point in time Jokic pointed to MPJ to guard Big Kat so he could defend Jaden Mcdaniels. “Good defenders” don’t hide on the other teams worst offensive player.

Losing in the second round is not “nearly identical success” as making the Finals. Which is why people talk about LeBron’s team success in 2007 and not in 2006. If you want to say that LeBron “carried” the 2006 Cavs to being a second-round-exit team or to 50 wins, then I’d be more inclined to agree with you, but also you wouldn’t make that point because it wouldn’t be particularly persuasive about anything. What you *are* trying to make a point about is the Cavs making the Finals in 2007, and your point was wrong, so now you’re talking about 2006.

No. The launching point for this conversation iirc was the mention of what Lebron would be able to do with MPJ and Jamal Murray. And I responded with James made it to the finals with scrubs. He played his entire first stint in Cleveland with putrid supporting cast but his teams were still faux title contenders. Maybe, Mike Brown coached them up better in 07 versus of 06 but it doesn’t ignore the fact the the actual talent his played with wasn’t good. And I’d still argue that he carried every team during his cavs stint. If he wasn’t on that team in 06-07 that team might squeak into the playoffs but they don’t make it past the first round. The driving force behind that team, the team the year prior and every subsequent cavs team he played on - was this guy:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUgbGVicm9uIGphbWVzIHBpc3RvbnMgNHRoIHF1YXJ0ZXI%3D

[BelgradeNugget]

He’s bad at too many things that significantly impact his team and the way they play defense to be considered a “good” defender.

He doesn’t protect the rim, he isn’t a good post defender, he can’t defend in space. He has elite hands and is an elite rebounder but as an actual defender it looks like he has to many flaws that the team’s defense has to scheme around. In game 6 during the 3rd quarter when Reid and Kat were on front court they went to a combination of a zone or putting Jokic on Jaden Mcdaniels. At one point in time Jokic pointed to MPJ to guard Big Kat so he could defend Jaden Mcdaniels. “Good defenders” don’t hide on the other teams worst offensive player.

Man, you coud use much less words and time to be totaly wrong. At one point in time In game 6 during the 3rd quarter is your proof for something. You know what. At one point in time he had 4 game saving blocks in 1 year so I guess he is Dikembe Mutombo.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[DimesandKnicks]

He’s bad at too many things that significantly impact his team and the way they play defense to be considered a “good” defender.

He doesn’t protect the rim, he isn’t a good post defender, he can’t defend in space. He has elite hands and is an elite rebounder but as an actual defender it looks like he has to many flaws that the team’s defense has to scheme around. In game 6 during the 3rd quarter when Reid and Kat were on front court they went to a combination of a zone or putting Jokic on Jaden Mcdaniels. At one point in time Jokic pointed to MPJ to guard Big Kat so he could defend Jaden Mcdaniels. “Good defenders” don’t hide on the other teams worst offensive player.

Man, you coud use much less words and time to be totaly wrong. At one point in time In game 6 during the 3rd quarter is your proof for something. You know what. At one point in time he had 4 game saving blocks in 1 year so I guess he is Dikembe Mutombo.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The bold is a general analysis of his game. I was just using that stretch in their last game as an example

[BelgradeNugget]

He’s bad at too many things that significantly impact his team and the way they play defense to be considered a “good” defender.

He doesn’t protect the rim, he isn’t a good post defender, he can’t defend in space. He has elite hands and is an elite rebounder but as an actual defender it looks like he has to many flaws that the team’s defense has to scheme around. In game 6 during the 3rd quarter when Reid and Kat were on front court they went to a combination of a zone or putting Jokic on Jaden Mcdaniels. At one point in time Jokic pointed to MPJ to guard Big Kat so he could defend Jaden Mcdaniels. “Good defenders” don’t hide on the other teams worst offensive player.

Man, you coud use much less words and time to be totaly wrong. At one point in time In game 6 during the 3rd quarter is your proof for something. You know what. At one point in time he had 4 game saving blocks in 1 year so I guess he is Dikembe Mutombo.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The bold is a general analysis of his game. I was just using that stretch in their last game as an example

He doesn't protect the rim is the only part where you were close. He is not good rim protector would be closer. The rest is wrong

[DimesandKnicks]

Man, you coud use much less words and time to be totaly wrong. At one point in time In game 6 during the 3rd quarter is your proof for something. You know what. At one point in time he had 4 game saving blocks in 1 year so I guess he is Dikembe Mutombo.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The bold is a general analysis of his game. I was just using that stretch in their last game as an example

He doesn't protect the rim is the only part where you were close. He is not good rim protector would be closer. The rest is wrong

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

[MyTake_1]

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

No player is perfect but this guy is a 3 time MVP vote by people who at least have some credentials in the BB World.

Now, who are you and what credentials do you have?

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, the thing is it is meaningless.

[tsherkin]

No player is perfect but this guy is a 3 time MVP vote by people who at least have some credentials in the BB World.

Now, who are you and what credentials do you have?

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, the thing is it is meaningless.

This isn't an effective response. We're having a discussion here. Most present aren't NBA coaches or scouts or what have you, so a credential-rooted attack is just a waste of time and condescending, not useful for quality discourse.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Perhaps he's playing conservative to avoid his critical piece fouling too much on D?

[DimesandKnicks]

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

No player is perfect but this guy is a 3 time MVP vote by people who at least have some credentials in the BB World.

Now, who are you and what credentials do you have?

Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, the thing is it is meaningless.

I’m talking about his defense. He’s an all time great offensive player. I’m a person on realgm; just like you in a free country where I’m free to share my opinion

[DimesandKnicks]

Perhaps he's playing conservative to avoid his critical piece fouling too much on D?

Good defenders can play defense without fouling. I think Mitch this season entered the realm of “good defender” going from an elite shot blocker to an elite rim defender who can stay on the floor longer and not pick up fouls

[tsherkin]

Good defenders can play defense without fouling.

That isn't universally true, no. And I"m not talking fouling out, I'm talking picking up some BS, ticky-tack fouls from a shot contest. That's part and parcel with shot contests. In tight games on a team where you fall apart entirely without your star, having him being your focal defender isn't a great plan. Even the Spurs used to manage matchups with Timmy in his hey-day.

[BelgradeNugget]

The bold is a general analysis of his game. I was just using that stretch in their last game as an example

He doesn't protect the rim is the only part where you were close. He is not good rim protector would be closer. The rest is wrong

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

[DimesandKnicks]

He doesn't protect the rim is the only part where you were close. He is not good rim protector would be closer. The rest is wrong

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

Again, I’m not basing it on a few games. I just highlighted that as an example. And Denver may have just put good defensive schemes together to cover up his defensive deficiencies. To use last game as an example again, when Jokic is guarding Gobert, he knows he can simply be in drop coverage and rely on the likes of KCP to fight over screens. However, when the Wolves play two front court players who can pop and shoot threes they adjust their defensive scheme to put Jokic in a position where he could still clog the paint as opposed to hedge than get back and close out on Kat or Reid.

[BelgradeNugget]

You’re entitled to your opinion. But if it was right than his coach wouldn’t put his team in a zone or have him defend the least effective offensive player on the opposite team when the Wolves play two dynamic offensive players in their front court. It’s not a matter of a few moments, it’s a matter of the coach looking at whose on the floor and deciding that what was best for his team was to put his 6”11 C on a not shooting SF as opposed to having him defend Reid.

Again, you are making opinion on one game, and one segment. My opininon is not only mine some others share it. Here is Butler's opinion after last year finals

https://www.si.com/nba/nuggets/news/jimmy-butler-gives-honest-answer-about-nikola-jokics-defense

Some good analysis from some BB experts

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

;t=190s

Watch on YouTube

and some more analysis. For defense in this Minnesota series, game 5 jump on 37:14

Watch on YouTube

So, Nuggets had 8th best defense in regular season, 2nd best in the cluch (3rd best last season) 7th best in playoffs despite some terrible losses, always have better defense with Jokic on the floor than off, but hey they played zone with Jokic guarding McDaniels. Is it all you have? Some times it takes more than watching someone play in few games to form resonable opinnion.

Again, I’m not basing it on a few games. I just highlighted that as an example. And Denver may have just put good defensive schemes together to cover up his defensive deficiencies. To use last game as an example again, when Jokic is guarding Gobert, he knows he can simply be in drop coverage and rely on the likes of KCP to fight over screens. However, when the Wolves play two front court players who can pop and shoot threes they adjust their defensive scheme to put Jokic in a position where he could still clog the paint as opposed to hedge than get back and close out on Kat or Reid.

You can say they use good defensive schemes to cover up for his defensive deficiencies as is rim protection or switching on guards, but at the same time they use it for the best use of the things he is the best among all centers in the league and that is great hands - steals and deflections.
He is great at positioning and reading offenses. He doesn't overcommit on drivers on D which leads to some bad rim protection but at the same time he is in position to box-out oposing centers for underrated part of defense and that is defensive rebounding. He doesn't challenge shots at the rim as good as others, but he swipes the balls from drivers while going up. It is all in the videos above.
They like to hide him on defense to give him some time to catch breath because teams try to attack him all the time to make him work on both sides of the court. He is 7th in these playoffs in total distance covered among all players and by far first among centers.
So after you watch videos I posted only reasonable conclusion is that he is not bad defender, far from great, but good to very good is what it is.