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I don’t think so . No disrespect to him, but his team has never gotten better defensively .

Teen Girl Squad wrote:

nate33 wrote:

Heej wrote:This is the most common textbook fan response about every coach so I don't believe this is a valid disqualifier

Yes, every time a coach lacks perfect 20/20 foresight to predict when a player will play good or bad, he is criticized for his "bad rotations".

Ryen Russilo had a great rant about this once. "Bad rotations" and "no adjustments" are code for "X didn't work, not X would have obviously worked 100% of the time." Basically it means you have no idea whats going on except you didn't like the outcome. Doesn't mean that there aren't times where its true, but you can actually single those out over a series (aka Bud refusing to change his defense on Butler).

As far as Malone goes, I put him in the 'Vogel' bucket of mid coaches who are good enough to win a championship but won't do anything special. He's good enough to play the obvious players/lineups and make the obvious adjustments so that the coaching advantage from someone like Spo won't be too big a factor nor will he put his team in obviously bad spots that set them up to struggle.

Exactly it's the low hanging fruit of basketball fandom. It's the only thing the average fan can even comprehend because most have no idea what's actually happening schematically on the court. Whenever people start ranting about rotations and lineups I usually immediately dismiss them as a casual until they demonstrate some cursory Xs and Os knowledge

As far as the mid allegations, I've always found that Malone overperformed as a defensive coach and offensively his schemes have been multi faceted and his players seem to never grow tired of him outside of Bones Hyland who strikes me as a bit of a selfish idiot. Can't be mid when you're the 3rd longest tenured coach in the league imo. The NBA cans coaches every year for no reason

His EQ seems significantly higher than people give him credit for. Interesting...

Michael* Malone (he doesnt like being called MIke, so do not do that, guys )

No, probably not a top 5 coach (in the NBA), but it is not a terrible thing at all.

cupcakesnake wrote:Coaching rankings are always a bit silly because we don't see much of the coaching so we over index on the things we can see. We really value wins (and ignore roster talent often when accounting for those wins). We value highly visible adjustments. We value overachieving expectations.

Malone has never ranked in the top 5 of ElectricMayhem's Coaching Value Index.. He finished 8th this year and that feels fine by me. I'd argue for him as high as 6. There are 4 coaches I would rather have in a playoff run (Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carlisle) and I also have Jenkins ahead of him. He's clearly weathered some storms in Denver over the years and kept the ship afloat. Denver is always proactive and cohesive. He managed the regular season well and hasn't had any hiccups in the playoffs. Denver might just be so much better than the opponents they've faced, but Malone definitely doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Interesting because the best ball breakdown dude I follow imo is the bballindex dude and by his estimation Malone performed like the best coach the Lakers faced in the bubble from an Xs and Os chess match standpoint. He was making obvious decisive adjustments an entire game quicker than Spo was according to them.

To all the people mentioning Carlisle, he's the one other guy I was thinking of putting in but it's arguable with those 2 imo. Interesting tho seems top 8 is consensus here. Not bad at all

good coach but I still won't forgive him for how he handled my guy Bol Bol

Interesting so far noone of my fellow Nuggets fans who would fired him at least five hunderd times so far.

Nah, Malone is... fine. Players still seem to like and respect him, that might be the most important thing. He (or him and his assistants) are capable of in-game and game2game adjustments that works. I like he is strick with his rookies and he demands them to earn minutes.

If there is a weakness I say it is a bench play. Every year, doesn´t matter the roster, our bench sucks and we pray to survive till Nikola goes back in. When we brought Reggie and Bryant most of us Denver fans thought we are pretty decent with our bench. Like 10+ deep. Jackson, Braun, Brown, Green, Bryant, Zeke, Čančar, DAJ, Ish... I am not saying like Vlatko is some hidden gem, I questioned if he even belongs in the NBA before the season. But when Green went out with broken hand, Vlatko played great. Good defense, hustle on rebounds, hitting shots... Like I have no idea why he didn´t get any chance later on. The most striking is why the hell any our back up C looks like he cannot play at all. Ok, some fans told us DAJ is washed before the season. He still can get you 5-8 rebounds in very limited minutes (and hitting threeees! ). But Bryant showed he is able to play starter minutes in NBA. With us? Terrible. Before them guys like Hartenstein, second time with JaVale, I am they CAN play at least little... Plums wasn´t terrible but also much worse then with his new teams. Like to me, our best back up C since Birdman was Cousins. And the guy was barely moving on the court.

All at all, I think it is pretty hard to objectively value coaches. Like I never was a big fan of Mike Brown but hell he made impression on me this year. But if you say Michael is top 10, I think this could be fair.

Heej wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Coaching rankings are always a bit silly because we don't see much of the coaching so we over index on the things we can see. We really value wins (and ignore roster talent often when accounting for those wins). We value highly visible adjustments. We value overachieving expectations.

Malone has never ranked in the top 5 of ElectricMayhem's Coaching Value Index.. He finished 8th this year and that feels fine by me. I'd argue for him as high as 6. There are 4 coaches I would rather have in a playoff run (Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carlisle) and I also have Jenkins ahead of him. He's clearly weathered some storms in Denver over the years and kept the ship afloat. Denver is always proactive and cohesive. He managed the regular season well and hasn't had any hiccups in the playoffs. Denver might just be so much better than the opponents they've faced, but Malone definitely doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Interesting because the best ball breakdown dude I follow imo is the bballindex dude and by his estimation Malone performed like the best coach the Lakers faced in the bubble from an Xs and Os chess match standpoint. He was making obvious decisive adjustments an entire game quicker than Spo was according to them.

To all the people mentioning Carlisle, he's the one other guy I was thinking of putting in but it's arguable with those 2 imo. Interesting tho seems top 8 is consensus here. Not bad at all

I didn't listen to the pod so I can't really comment but maybe I'll give it a listen.

I think Malone was quietly spectacular in the Phoenix series. Even when the series was tied, Denver seemed in control of most facets of the game. Their choice to make life miserable for Durant and let Booker was functional and would have led to a sweep had Booker not shot out of his mind in those 2 games. Phoenix was a ton of firepower to keep in check, but Denver's defensive system never broke. On offense they did their thing unimpeded and kept everyone involved so they weren't ruined by a cold shooting night from Murray or MPJ.

I think Ham has been super solid thus far too, so I'm looking forward to this Western Conference Finals.

cupcakesnake wrote:

Heej wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Coaching rankings are always a bit silly because we don't see much of the coaching so we over index on the things we can see. We really value wins (and ignore roster talent often when accounting for those wins). We value highly visible adjustments. We value overachieving expectations.

Malone has never ranked in the top 5 of ElectricMayhem's Coaching Value Index.. He finished 8th this year and that feels fine by me. I'd argue for him as high as 6. There are 4 coaches I would rather have in a playoff run (Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carlisle) and I also have Jenkins ahead of him. He's clearly weathered some storms in Denver over the years and kept the ship afloat. Denver is always proactive and cohesive. He managed the regular season well and hasn't had any hiccups in the playoffs. Denver might just be so much better than the opponents they've faced, but Malone definitely doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Interesting because the best ball breakdown dude I follow imo is the bballindex dude and by his estimation Malone performed like the best coach the Lakers faced in the bubble from an Xs and Os chess match standpoint. He was making obvious decisive adjustments an entire game quicker than Spo was according to them.

To all the people mentioning Carlisle, he's the one other guy I was thinking of putting in but it's arguable with those 2 imo. Interesting tho seems top 8 is consensus here. Not bad at all

I didn't listen to the pod so I can't really comment but maybe I'll give it a listen.

I think Malone was quietly spectacular in the Phoenix series. Even when the series was tied, Denver seemed in control of most facets of the game. Their choice to make life miserable for Durant and let Booker was functional and would have led to a sweep had Booker not shot out of his mind in those 2 games. Phoenix was a ton of firepower to keep in check, but Denver's defensive system never broke. On offense they did their thing unimpeded and kept everyone involved so they weren't ruined by a cold shooting night from Murray or MPJ.

I think Ham has been super solid thus far too, so I'm looking forward to this Western Conference Finals.

He legitimately has been. But let's be honest man some of the LeCoach stuff is true. T Lue came out guns blazing working with LeBron as a rookie coach, Ham getting a boost here too. I think it's like a rookie having an old get it helps to have his input on schemes because he's seen it all. Hams alluded to that as much that he's a very collaborative coach with his players, which is kinda what I've always felt like Malone and many of the younger coaches seem to have.

I'm kinda wondering if basketball has been so theory crafted to the max with the overabundance of 3s seeming to tail off and offenses having more balanced approaches and movement, that we're about to enter a Golden Age of coaching. Where with how much info there is out there that guys coming in are loaded to the gills with knowledge

My gut says no, but there’s so few coaches I trust that like…. maybe? Udoka, Spo, and Nurse would probably be my top 3. It’s anyone’s guess after that. I feel like Malone is really difficult to judge. Were his regular season bench lineups really just playing possum for the playoffs or did he just get lucky to find something that worked when he shortened the rotation? How much of the beautiful offense they run is Malone’s coaching and how much is just Joker doing his thing?

I feel like if you give Malone the benefit of the doubt in every case, you could rank him as high as #4, but you could also go the other way, give Jokić credit for everything and say the Nuggets regular season off-court Jokic numbers are more representative of his value and he’s actually a little below average. I think the truth is probably somewhere in the middle and he’s actually somewhere in the 6-14 range, but I think it’s also true that the gap between say the #5 coach in the NBA and the #20 coach is very small. There’s a few guys that are ahead of the game and a few guys that are clueless and then most of the people in the middle are packed in pretty tight. Malone’s on the top end of the middle guys, but he still fits in that category.

Jadoogar wrote:

Twizlers wrote:This is worthy of my first post on this board.
No, he is not a top 5 coach. His refusal to continue to play Jeff Green in these playoffs is evidence of that. I wouldn't say he is a bad coach, but he certainly has questionable rotations and can't draw up plays.

i don't think he's a top 5 coach but who do you think he should play instead of Jeff Green? Deandre Jordan? Thomas Bryant?
In the playoffs, coaches tend to go with guys they trust. Jeff Green for all his faults is a veteran who knows how to play and won't make simple mistakes. That's a lot more than all these young players that people tend to suggest.

Christian Braun. He’s only 2 inches shorter than Green. I don’t buy that the size difference makes them completely different players defensively. This postseason, Green’s averaging 19 MPG to Braun’s 13 when Braun could easily be at like 24 MPG and keeping Green to 8 MPG or less. With that said, it’s a small enough issue mixing up the 7th and 8th man in the rotation that I don’t really hold it against Malone much. For the most part, I’ve been pretty pleased with his rotations and I feel he’s been above average in that department this postseason after a pretty shaky regular season.

Malone is underrated. Who do you think designed the offensive system using a point center?

And the defensive system being used by Denver is fairly unique.

Twizlers wrote:This is worthy of my first post on this board.
No, he is not a top 5 coach. His refusal to continue to play Jeff Green in these playoffs is evidence of that. I wouldn't say he is a bad coach, but he certainly has questionable rotations and can't draw up plays.

No fans have ever liked a coaches rotations, doesn't matter the coach, there's always a player they play that some fans don't like. Sometimes it might be justified, other times there is something with running the schemes correctly on usually the defensive end that the player doesn't do as well, but the seemingly inferior player who plays more does.

So it can be hard to gauge the fan rotation and minutes criticisms.

iggymcfrack wrote:

Jadoogar wrote:

Twizlers wrote:This is worthy of my first post on this board.
No, he is not a top 5 coach. His refusal to continue to play Jeff Green in these playoffs is evidence of that. I wouldn't say he is a bad coach, but he certainly has questionable rotations and can't draw up plays.

i don't think he's a top 5 coach but who do you think he should play instead of Jeff Green? Deandre Jordan? Thomas Bryant?
In the playoffs, coaches tend to go with guys they trust. Jeff Green for all his faults is a veteran who knows how to play and won't make simple mistakes. That's a lot more than all these young players that people tend to suggest.

Christian Braun. He’s only 2 inches shorter than Green. I don’t buy that the size difference makes them completely different players defensively. This postseason, Green’s averaging 19 MPG to Braun’s 13 when Braun could easily be at like 24 MPG and keeping Green to 8 MPG or less. With that said, it’s a small enough issue mixing up the 7th and 8th man in the rotation that I don’t really hold it against Malone much. For the most part, I’ve been pretty pleased with his rotations and I feel he’s been above average in that department this postseason after a pretty shaky regular season.

They play different positions in Denver's system. Braun is a defensive specialist on the wing. He comes in specifically to guard perimeter scorers, though he has shown some ability to guard up a bit. Jeff Green backs up the 4 and 5 position. He typically subs out Aaron Gordon, plays a few minutes with Jokic, and then shifts to the 5 when Jokic takes a breather (Gordon subs back in). One plays wing, one plays big.

Yes their listed heights are close but this are very different sized players due to their length. Braun is 6'5.5" with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's actually pretty stumpy for a wing, which makes it all the more impressive how well he's been able to guard. Jeff Green is 6'7" with a 7'1.25" wingspan, giving him legit small ball center size.

Braun can't operate as a roll man like Green can, and his defensive tools aren't going to pop if they have him playing on the backline. Green is also too slow these days to guard full time on the wing.

cupcakesnake wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:

Jadoogar wrote:
i don't think he's a top 5 coach but who do you think he should play instead of Jeff Green? Deandre Jordan? Thomas Bryant?
In the playoffs, coaches tend to go with guys they trust. Jeff Green for all his faults is a veteran who knows how to play and won't make simple mistakes. That's a lot more than all these young players that people tend to suggest.

Christian Braun. He’s only 2 inches shorter than Green. I don’t buy that the size difference makes them completely different players defensively. This postseason, Green’s averaging 19 MPG to Braun’s 13 when Braun could easily be at like 24 MPG and keeping Green to 8 MPG or less. With that said, it’s a small enough issue mixing up the 7th and 8th man in the rotation that I don’t really hold it against Malone much. For the most part, I’ve been pretty pleased with his rotations and I feel he’s been above average in that department this postseason after a pretty shaky regular season.

They play different positions in Denver's system. Braun is a defensive specialist on the wing. He comes in specifically to guard perimeter scorers, though he has shown some ability to guard up a bit. Jeff Green backs up the 4 and 5 position. He typically subs out Aaron Gordon, plays a few minutes with Jokic, and then shifts to the 5 when Jokic takes a breather (Gordon subs back in). One plays wing, one plays big.

Yes their listed heights are close but this are very different sized players due to their length. Braun is 6'5.5" with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's actually pretty stumpy for a wing, which makes it all the more impressive how well he's been able to guard. Jeff Green is 6'7" with a 7'1.25" wingspan, giving him legit small ball center size.

Braun can't operate as a roll man like Green can, and his defensive tools aren't going to pop if they have him playing on the backline. Green is also too slow these days to guard full time on the wing.

That’s a very good point on the wingspan difference. I didn’t realize it was that large. If Malone wants to play Jeff Green all of Jokic’s bench minutes as a small ball 5 I’m totally fine with that. I think the rest of the time, they’d probably be better off with Braun in the game, but again this was never a major complaint with me.

The fact that he waited the entire regular season to play another starter in most of Joker’s bench lineups is more concerning. He’s doing the right thing now, but I kinda have to question what the point was not really trying that during the regular season. It doesn’t seem like homecourt in the Finals is something you’d just give away on purpose to “save it for the playoffs”. So in that sense, it does kinda feel like he’s happening into some things through luck. He’s certainly been much better than say Monty Williams though with rotations and I do think he’s a good coach, but I would also say he’s closer to league average than he is to someone like Spo.

Definitely not a top 5 regular season coach.

But he has done a good job so far in these playoffs.

iggymcfrack wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:
Christian Braun. He’s only 2 inches shorter than Green. I don’t buy that the size difference makes them completely different players defensively. This postseason, Green’s averaging 19 MPG to Braun’s 13 when Braun could easily be at like 24 MPG and keeping Green to 8 MPG or less. With that said, it’s a small enough issue mixing up the 7th and 8th man in the rotation that I don’t really hold it against Malone much. For the most part, I’ve been pretty pleased with his rotations and I feel he’s been above average in that department this postseason after a pretty shaky regular season.

They play different positions in Denver's system. Braun is a defensive specialist on the wing. He comes in specifically to guard perimeter scorers, though he has shown some ability to guard up a bit. Jeff Green backs up the 4 and 5 position. He typically subs out Aaron Gordon, plays a few minutes with Jokic, and then shifts to the 5 when Jokic takes a breather (Gordon subs back in). One plays wing, one plays big.

Yes their listed heights are close but this are very different sized players due to their length. Braun is 6'5.5" with a 6'6.5" wingspan. He's actually pretty stumpy for a wing, which makes it all the more impressive how well he's been able to guard. Jeff Green is 6'7" with a 7'1.25" wingspan, giving him legit small ball center size.

Braun can't operate as a roll man like Green can, and his defensive tools aren't going to pop if they have him playing on the backline. Green is also too slow these days to guard full time on the wing.

That’s a very good point on the wingspan difference. I didn’t realize it was that large. If Malone wants to play Jeff Green all of Jokic’s bench minutes as a small ball 5 I’m totally fine with that. I think the rest of the time, they’d probably be better off with Braun in the game, but again this was never a major complaint with me.

The fact that he waited the entire regular season to play another starter in most of Joker’s bench lineups is more concerning. He’s doing the right thing now, but I kinda have to question what the point was not really trying that during the regular season. It doesn’t seem like homecourt in the Finals is something you’d just give away on purpose to “save it for the playoffs”. So in that sense, it does kinda feel like he’s happening into some things through luck. He’s certainly been much better than say Monty Williams though with rotations and I do think he’s a good coach, but I would also say he’s closer to league average than he is to someone like Spo.

I think with the bench thing, it's important to remember the details of the season and what Malone tried with to do with the bench.
- The Nuggets went into the season investing a lot in Bones Hyland as a bench scorer. Bones flashed a lot of scoring potency in his rookie season and most people were pretty high on him being a difference maker in Denver this year. The early returns seemed promising as far as Bones having a lot of big scoring games. But it was also an early season story line that Denver's bench was producing some of the worst on/off numbers in the league.
- The Nuggets also thought they could get a ton of mileage with Jamal Murray anchoring non-Jokic lineups. But Murray's return from injury was not a smooth process at all. Many nights he just looked too slow to cook.
- A couple more months go by and everyone is catching on that Bones is straight-up the worst defensive player in the NBA. It felt like every time Bones was near the ball defensively, the opponent would instantly put it in the basket. Around mid-December, Bones stops getting to run bench units. His minutes get reduced and his play falls off. But Denver's bench lineups stabilize with more minutes for bigger, more defensive players (Cancar, Braun, Nnaji).
- Then the Nuggets pull of some kind of random trades at the deadline. They get rid of Bones for nothing and bring in Bryant and Jackson. Putting more bad defenders in the rotation doesn't work and the bench lineup sucks again.
- The Nuggets spend the later part of the season (with the #1 seed practically locked up) just straight tinkering trying to figure out their ideal playoff rotation and get out of this weird bench purgatory.

It wasn't smooth sailing and I didn't like most of the decision-making process. But, Malone clearly worked his ass off trying to figure it out and so far it looks successful. I still don't understand what's wrong with Cancar and Nnaji though.

cupcakesnake wrote:

Heej wrote:

cupcakesnake wrote:Coaching rankings are always a bit silly because we don't see much of the coaching so we over index on the things we can see. We really value wins (and ignore roster talent often when accounting for those wins). We value highly visible adjustments. We value overachieving expectations.

Malone has never ranked in the top 5 of ElectricMayhem's Coaching Value Index.. He finished 8th this year and that feels fine by me. I'd argue for him as high as 6. There are 4 coaches I would rather have in a playoff run (Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carlisle) and I also have Jenkins ahead of him. He's clearly weathered some storms in Denver over the years and kept the ship afloat. Denver is always proactive and cohesive. He managed the regular season well and hasn't had any hiccups in the playoffs. Denver might just be so much better than the opponents they've faced, but Malone definitely doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Interesting because the best ball breakdown dude I follow imo is the bballindex dude and by his estimation Malone performed like the best coach the Lakers faced in the bubble from an Xs and Os chess match standpoint. He was making obvious decisive adjustments an entire game quicker than Spo was according to them.

To all the people mentioning Carlisle, he's the one other guy I was thinking of putting in but it's arguable with those 2 imo. Interesting tho seems top 8 is consensus here. Not bad at all

I didn't listen to the pod so I can't really comment but maybe I'll give it a listen.

I think Malone was quietly spectacular in the Phoenix series. Even when the series was tied, Denver seemed in control of most facets of the game. Their choice to make life miserable for Durant and let Booker was functional and would have led to a sweep had Booker not shot out of his mind in those 2 games. Phoenix was a ton of firepower to keep in check, but Denver's defensive system never broke. On offense they did their thing unimpeded and kept everyone involved so they weren't ruined by a cold shooting night from Murray or MPJ.

I think Ham has been super solid thus far too, so I'm looking forward to this Western Conference Finals.

Malone is a defensive coach. Maybe an extremely good one. Most of his ato's in the regular season were literally "Jokic, get on the block."

I'm not here to rate him, just wanted to share that tidbit. He's maybe in the perfect situation for his strengths to shine while his weaknesses are covered by Jokic.

His EQ definitely seems great. Which does matter a lot.

cupcakesnake wrote:Coaching rankings are always a bit silly because we don't see much of the coaching so we over index on the things we can see. We really value wins (and ignore roster talent often when accounting for those wins). We value highly visible adjustments. We value overachieving expectations.

Malone has never ranked in the top 5 of ElectricMayhem's Coaching Value Index.. He finished 8th this year and that feels fine by me. I'd argue for him as high as 6. There are 4 coaches I would rather have in a playoff run (Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carlisle) and I also have Jenkins ahead of him. He's clearly weathered some storms in Denver over the years and kept the ship afloat. Denver is always proactive and cohesive. He managed the regular season well and hasn't had any hiccups in the playoffs. Denver might just be so much better than the opponents they've faced, but Malone definitely doesn't seem to be hurting anything.

Am I reading it right that they have Udoka as the worst coach in the NBA last year?

Spo, Pop, Nurse, Carslie, Brown, Lue, Kerr…

I haven’t seen enough from Malone to put him above these guys.

Hmmmm. End of the year now. How do we feel about this now? Has Malone's stock risen? Kerr definitely just had a generational fall off