Doesn't Jokic dispel the notion that post-play is obsolete?

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Simple question.

He dominates with it.

the issue is that it seems you didn't understand the original point, most likely.
first there are different ways to play in the post, one thing is being a finisher (the team moves the ball, the center has deep position, he catches and then finishes), another is creating from the post, more like an iso.
the old route of establishing position, calling for the ball and that going to work was never that effective and it's made extremely more difficult because of modern defenses without the illegal defense call.
It's easier to front and have a second defender coming in, it's easier to close the gaps and feint a help, it's less predictable where that help will come from. And smaller players are now much more ready to flop if the center tries to overpower.
To do what Jokic does you need a combination of all time level passing and awareness and all time level touch (nobody in history has ever been that efficient from floater range, afaik).

Once we'll see 5-6-10 players being effective playing this way we could call it a trend, atm it's just that we're witnessing a magician.

[Jamaaliver]

It absolutely does.

Analytics told us that mid-range jumpers and post ups were terrible, inexcusable plays that had to be legislated out of the game.

Then the NBA overcorrected in moving too far away from these fundamental staples of basketball. These plays didn't need to be completely removed from the league, just improved upon.

And that's part of why Jokic's post-ups are so effective: there are no mobile, 300 pound big men left in the league to defend this play from a player of his skill and size.


NOTE: The key to defeating these tall, lanky unicorns like Chet, Wemby, Porzingis -- let a 300 pound, 7-footer post them up and put a shoulder dead in their chests.

[Jadoogar]

I'd say that there are a lot of things about Jokic that are the total exception to the rule.

His ballhandling, shooting, and passing as a 7 footer? Sure.

A 7 footer dominating with their back to the basket is not unprecedented in the annals of NBA history.

but a lot of that is made possible due to his playmaking. If he wasn't as good of a passer, he'd be a lot easier to double team. Jonas Valancuinas is a very good post player but he can't pass at all, so teams just throw another defender on him if he tries to play back to the basket.

[Meat]

gsw style only works when you have gsw level talent

[xdrta+]

gsw style only works when you have gsw level talent

Just like a heavy emphasis on post play only works when you have (close to) Jokic-level talent. It all comes down to the talent you have, the system has to be fitted to the talent.

[Jamaaliver]

but a lot of that is made possible due to his playmaking. If he wasn't as good of a passer, he'd be a lot easier to double team. Jonas Valancuinas is a very good post player but he can't pass at all, so teams just throw another defender on him if he tries to play back to the basket.

That is an absolute fact.

But a slightly above average post player can feast in the right matchup -- at any level.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

If it takes a 3 time MVP to "dispel" a notion then that notion is probably still very valid.

[PistolPeteJR]

People think "post play" is strictly about scoring in the post. That's the problem with this. With Jokic, he's a high-post and low-post threat, elite at both scoring and passing from a prowess standpoint AND a willingness standpoint.

[WillyJakkz]

gsw style only works when you have gsw level talent

This is it in a nutshell and I just said this to someone the other day.

The only reason it works in GS is because they have a Steph then got a Klay then a Draymond. That model doesn't work anywhere else to that affect because those guys masquerading in the Steph and or Klay role can't shoot like them.

[hauntedcomputer]

High post good.
Low post bad.

[ItsDanger]

If the past championship team features an efficient post scorer, perhaps other teams need to adjust their rosters to counter that especially in the West. Doesn't seem like they have at all.

[WillyJakkz]

The post play era came to an end (which l told my family over the holiday) because the guys who were supposed to be the next great bigs in Greg Oden Yao Ming and Andrew Bynum got injured.

They along with Dwight Howard were supposed to be battling for big man supremacy for about a decade and we were robbed of that.

Dwight was the only one left standing, enter: Steph.

And things changed.

[dhsilv2]

I'd say that there are a lot of things about Jokic that are the total exception to the rule.

His ballhandling, shooting, and passing as a 7 footer? Sure.

A 7 footer dominating with their back to the basket is not unprecedented in the annals of NBA history.

In terms of offense, there have really only been 3 post shot clock. Kareem, Shaq and Jokic. Others have been really good. A few had an amazing playoff run or teams were so well built to their needs that it worked. But over NBA history the best bigs dominated defensively and were fair to pretty darn good.

Jokic's offense in the half court is closer to Magic and than say Hakeem as a good example. All 3 used the post but Hakeem lived there while Jokic and Magic move in and out of it. What makes Jokic so effective is that he can create all over the court so he only uses the post when it's advantageous vs guys in the past needing to work from there. We see similar even from Luka now.

[dhsilv2]

Post play isn’t obsolete either. It’s just that it’s not efficient to throw any 7 foot stiff down there and hope he scores as it’s a very inefficient play. That was old school coach thinking and has definitely died out.

No, they legislated out physicality and defense on the perimeter which made it a lot easier to score from those positions.

Top offenses have been guard driven since Bob Cousy and Bill Sharman were the top offense in the league before Russell joined. Big men win because of defense not offense.

[dhsilv2]

gsw style only works when you have gsw level talent

This is it in a nutshell and I just said this to someone the other day.

The only reason it works in GS is because they have a Steph then got a Klay then a Draymond. That model doesn't work anywhere else to that affect because those guys masquerading in the Steph and or Klay role can't shoot like them.

No system works if the goal is a title unless you have talent for the system. This is just a circular argument.

[dhsilv2]

but a lot of that is made possible due to his playmaking. If he wasn't as good of a passer, he'd be a lot easier to double team. Jonas Valancuinas is a very good post player but he can't pass at all, so teams just throw another defender on him if he tries to play back to the basket.

That is an absolute fact.

But a slightly above average post player can feast in the right matchup -- at any level.

I mean you can say that about anything. If the matchup is favorite the matchup is favorable. They key to success is having a team that can create the most advantageous matchups or can limit what a defense can do to stop someone's strengths.

[nate33]

Post play isn't obsolete. It's just difficult to run with much consistency because rule changes allow defense to front the post while help defenders can shade the weakside to prevent a lob. It takes a very skilled and creative player to get a lot of post touches. Jokic's ability to make quick one-touch passes make it hard to help on the entry pass, and suicide to double him after he gets the ball.

Other good post scorers with lesser passing ability, like, say, Valanciunas, just can't get a high volume of post touches because teams can scheme against it.

[dhsilv2]

It absolutely does.

Analytics told us that mid-range jumpers and post ups were terrible, inexcusable plays that had to be legislated out of the game.

No they didn't. They told us those areas of the court are for your best players and not the "other guys". Never did analytics tell us to stop superstars from working in those areas. We used analytics to get more shooters on the court to make our stars better in those areas.

[ShootersShoot]

Strictly post play is obsolete..however as a part of a wider reportoire of skills, is a strong tool to have.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The post was never obsolete, it just evolved and the most impactful post players today are also 3 level scorers. With how switch happy the league became it only made sense that eventually the post would come back around, everyone copied the Warriors switching and the most natural evolution to counter that was a giant with the skills to punish it. Adding in that Jokic can make threes and you have someone that can pull the opposing C away from the rim hurting their defensive impact and you can't switch a 6'7" guy onto him like you would against DeAndre Jordan or any number of rim runners.