The Real and Undisputed GOAT

[iLLmatic860]

There were only a total of 9 teams when Russell's Celtics won their 8th straight title in 1969 and only 8 when he won the first of those 8 consecutive championships in 1957.

Tell me you're bad at math without telling me you're bad at math.

That is word for word copy and pasted from Google. So please tell me what exactly you're talking about?

[CobraCommander]

There were only a total of 9 teams when Russell's Celtics won their 8th straight title in 1969 and only 8 when he won the first of those 8 consecutive championships in 1957.

That means every team was stacked.

No it means less people knew how to play basketball lol

[KayDee35]

Tell me you're bad at math without telling me you're bad at math.

That is word for word copy and pasted from Google. So please tell me what exactly you're talking about?

Let me try this again by asking you a rather simple question: If the league went from 30 teams to 15 teams next season do you think the talent level of each team gets better or worse?

[bledredwine]

That is word for word copy and pasted from Google. So please tell me what exactly you're talking about?

Let me try this again by asking you a rather simple question: If the league went from 30 teams to 15 teams next season do you think the talent level of each team gets better or worse?

Obviously they get better with the current talent.

But let's be objective. The league was created in 1949 and many players had extra jobs. We already know the
height discrepancies between Wilt/Russell and the rest of the league.

It's one thing to call a league uncompetitive when there's no data supporting this and it has already been around for many decades, but this was a league that was brand spankin new.... less than a decade as he was winning these championships with a stacked squad. Russell's efficiency was awful, despite the height advantage.

And they had what, 3 game series? Something like that.

Now, if his offensive stats weren't incredibly inefficient and lower than multiple teammates both in volume and efficiency most of the time, I might be on the side of Russell being in the GOAT conversation. But I can't get passed the lack of offensive efficiency. He shot in the .300's in the finals multiple times as a big. This is why many of his teammates were considered hall of famers- they carried the scoring.

I can't find it but they had stats for the full Celtics squads during Russell's championships. It was very telling.

Still, we have this - https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-are-bill-russell-finals-stats-by-year

For me personally, the GOAT of a sport has to be dominant as an offensive player and in this particular sport, needs to be able to get buckets (especially in crunch time).

[OriginalRed]

I don't like to **** on older generations but I can't seriously give too much credit to those championships when ge played in a league with only like 8 teams and you only had to win two playoff series to win it all. This isn't even mentioning how devoid of talent the league was back then.

[Mr B]

The REAL goat.

[Mirotic12]

It's always a given that in any Bill Russell is the GOAT claims, guys like Bob Cousy, Sam Jones and John Havlicek get zero credit of any kind for those Celtics teams. Those guys really needed to hire better PR firms in their retirement years.

[Swindle]

Bill Russell got no Bill Russell awards. Jerry west got a Bill Russell award against Bill Russell, plus he on every NBA court, jersey, and piece of merchandise. How GOATed is that?

[KayDee35]

But let's be objective. The league was created in 1949 and many players had extra jobs. We already know the
height discrepancies between Wilt/Russell and the rest of the league.

In 1960 the average height for a center was 6'10.1" and Bill Russell was 6'10". The average height for the league at that time was about a half inch shorter than in 2021.

I'm not sure why these myths are still around when they are easily disproven.

It's one thing to call a league uncompetitive when there's no data supporting this and it has already been around for many decades, but this was a league that was brand spankin new.... less than a decade as he was winning these championships with a stacked squad.

A stacked squad that went 10-18 in the 28 games Russell missed in his career. That looks like a terrible record compared to the 71% win rate with Russell.

Russell's efficiency was awful, despite the height advantage.

His offensive efficiency was better than average. And somehow the team won with him playing big minutes. And lost when he didn't play.

His passing was phenomenal for a big man. He averaged over 5 assists/game in 7 different playoff runs.

This is why many of his teammates were considered hall of famers- they carried the scoring.

Some of them are. But several of them aren't HoF'ers without the rings. The Celtics were always in the bottom half of the league for offensive efficiency during the Russell years, except for 1 season. These offensive stars who carried the scoring couldn't carry the team to being an offensively great?

The other Celtics often get underrated, when many of them were stellar. But you're overrating a lot of them when the numbers do not back that up.

For me personally, the GOAT of a sport has to be dominant as an offensive player and in this particular sport, needs to be able to get buckets (especially in crunch time).

The Celtics were great in crunch time. They won close games and close series. Russell is 10-0 in game 7s. No one else comes close.

[ChipotleWest]

That is word for word copy and pasted from Google. So please tell me what exactly you're talking about?

Let me try this again by asking you a rather simple question: If the league went from 30 teams to 15 teams next season do you think the talent level of each team gets better or worse?

That would only apply to the talent there is today but has nothing to do with the talent there was in the 1960's. Some of them even had part time jobs despite having less teams and less players because they weren't that good. I think he's in the conversation just because of his domination of the league but not the GOAT just because of the lack of teams. I do not believe nor should anyone believe that he would have 11 rings if there were 30 teams.

[KayDee35]

It's always a given that in any Bill Russell is the GOAT claims, guys like Bob Cousy, Sam Jones and John Havlicek get zero credit of any kind for those Celtics teams. Those guys really needed to hire better PR firms in their retirement years.

Bob Cousy is a legend. But Cousy won exactly zero rings without Russell. Cousy gets his first ring when rookie Russell shows up. The following season, they make Finals, but lose after Russell gets injured in game 3.

Cousy goes on to win 5 rings in a row and then retires. Russell won 3 more rings in a row (8 in a row total) after Cousy's gone. Seems like Russell might be the key.

Hondo was also terrific and won 6 rings with Russell and 2 rings without Russell, with Dave Cowens at center.

These guys aren't losing credit. In fact, Russell's unselfishness and passing allowed them to be greater offensive forces. No one is under any illusion that Russell was some kind of offensive juggernaut.

[MrBigShot]

When it comes to raw basketball ability/impact peak MJ and LeBron absolutely blow Russell out of the water. Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird also best him in that regard.

He has no argument for GOAT. The league had single digit teams when he was in the league. He's a legend and a pioneer but not the GOAT.

[KayDee35]

That is word for word copy and pasted from Google. So please tell me what exactly you're talking about?

Let me try this again by asking you a rather simple question: If the league went from 30 teams to 15 teams next season do you think the talent level of each team gets better or worse?

That would only apply to the talent there is today but has nothing to do with the talent there was in the 1960's. Some of them even had part time jobs despite having less teams and less players because they weren't that good. I think he's in the conversation just because of his domination of the league but not the GOAT just because of the lack of teams. I do not believe nor should anyone believe that he would have 11 rings if there were 30 teams.

It's not a matter of the number of teams then, but a matter of the amount of talent in the league.

NBA talent has only gotten better over time, especially on average. So we can always look back and claim that players of the past played against inferior competition.

International players are also a huge factor in terms of overall talent. The NBA is about to have six consecutive years of foreign-born players winning MVP. There are way more basketball players outside the USA. That long untapped talent is now being displayed and it's only the beginning.

So if you played in an era when the rest of the world was not playing basketball as seriously as the USA, you played in a clearly inferior era.

[KayDee35]

When it comes to raw basketball ability/impact peak MJ and LeBron absolutely blow Russell out of the water. Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird also best him in that regard.

He has no argument for GOAT. The league had single digit teams when he was in the league. He's a legend and a pioneer but not the GOAT.

Yeah, Russell only had to play against bums like Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, and Jerry West.

Wilt averaged 50 PPG in a season considered by many the best athlete to ever wear an NBA uniform. Isn't he an impact player like MJ and LeBron? Yet, he went 1-7 against Russell in the playoffs.

MJ is 2-1 in game 7s. LeBron is 6-2. Russell is 10-0.

The only impact Bill cared about was winning. MJ and LBJ are in love with themselves and their stats. Bill loved only winning and did it better than anyone else.

Bill was the GOAT teammate which contributes to his being the GOAT. MJ and LBJ have never been considered GOAT teammates.

[PhilBlackson]

When it comes to raw basketball ability/impact peak MJ and LeBron absolutely blow Russell out of the water. Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird also best him in that regard.

He has no argument for GOAT. The league had single digit teams when he was in the league. He's a legend and a pioneer but not the GOAT.

Yeah, Russell only had to play against bums like Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, and Jerry West.

Wilt averaged 50 PPG in a season considered by many the best athlete to ever wear an NBA uniform. Isn't he an impact player like MJ and LeBron? Yet, he went 1-7 against Russell in the playoffs.

MJ is 2-1 in game 7s. LeBron is 6-2. Russell is 10-0.

The only impact Bill cared about was winning. MJ and LBJ are in love with themselves and their stats. Bill loved only winning and did it better than anyone else.

Bill was the GOAT teammate which contributes to his being the GOAT. MJ and LBJ have never been considered GOAT teammates.

Are you really pretending the league as a whole was even remotely as skilled as today?! You can’t be serious.

[KayDee35]

When it comes to raw basketball ability/impact peak MJ and LeBron absolutely blow Russell out of the water. Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Magic, and Bird also best him in that regard.

He has no argument for GOAT. The league had single digit teams when he was in the league. He's a legend and a pioneer but not the GOAT.

Yeah, Russell only had to play against bums like Willis Reed, Nate Thurmond, and Jerry West.

Wilt averaged 50 PPG in a season considered by many the best athlete to ever wear an NBA uniform. Isn't he an impact player like MJ and LeBron? Yet, he went 1-7 against Russell in the playoffs.

MJ is 2-1 in game 7s. LeBron is 6-2. Russell is 10-0.

The only impact Bill cared about was winning. MJ and LBJ are in love with themselves and their stats. Bill loved only winning and did it better than anyone else.

Bill was the GOAT teammate which contributes to his being the GOAT. MJ and LBJ have never been considered GOAT teammates.

Are you really pretending the league as a whole was even remotely as skilled as today?! You can’t be serious.

Of course, the league today is more skilled than it was compared to past decades. The influx of international talent has pushed the skill level up even further. But that applies to all eras.

So, we can never crown anyone GOAT until the skill and talent level in the league stagnates? That's not a position that anyone who participates in GOAT debates holds because it's inconsistent.

KAJ, MJ, and LBJ played against the talent that was around at that time. So did Russell.

If winning 11 rings was so easy, then someone else from eras past should have done it. Winning a ring was so easy that HOF'ers like Wilt won only 2 and Jerry West only won 1.

[Mr B]

The greatest basketball player of all time and could kick your favorite players ass.

[Ugly Duckling]

Bill Russell was way before my time, but I consider myself a student of the game, know about his storied career and have seen highlights. Respect for making this thread because I think his game and achievements are criminally underrated. He was a true swiss army knife. People throw that word around but Russell could legit do it all. Score, board, steal, block, defend, shoot, dunk, pass. Everything. At an elite level. I don't get why he's rarely put in top 5's aside from the fact that most people aren't familiar enough with him.

That being said, you can't put him #1 over MJ based on 11 rings because the league was so small back then. There was legit 8-10 teams in the league. I think LeBron has to go 2. You could make an argument to put him at 3, but I think that has to go to Kareem. But I wouldn't be mad at putting him at 4.

[OdomFan]

Russell isn't even remotely the greatest at his own position. Center. Let alone greatest overall player. 11 rings with that amount of teams to compete with just isnt much of an argument. Players have come and gone since the 1960s that were far better defenders, and contributed a lot more on the offensive end as well. Big men like Kareem, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Hakeem, heck. in that same era Wilt was looked at as the individually more talented player. Russell was a great team guy like a Tim Duncan was in the 2000s, but Tim had a much great offensive game to go with the defense. Entertaining thread, but no. nope. See ya.

[Lalouie]

all goats must present their rings before entering the club, and once in they all bow to russell. rings are all they care about because rings are what gets them in.

the problem is twofold.....basketball has a short memory for history and it worships individual stats