Jokic and the Bill Simmons Pyramid

[EmpireFalls]

His never-an-allstar teammate averaged 33PPG on 65% TS in a conference finals last postseason on route to a ring. Selective statistics like this sound incredibly empty when you add any semblance of context to it.

And Porter/Gordon have both averaged 20 PPG in playoff series too. It’s not a crap supporting cast, not by any means. Just not a great one.

[Impuniti]

His never-an-allstar teammate averaged 33PPG on 65% TS in a conference finals last postseason on route to a ring. Selective statistics like this sound incredibly empty when you add any semblance of context to it.

And Porter/Gordon have both averaged 20 PPG in playoff series too. It’s not a crap supporting cast, not by any means. Just not a great one.

It absolutely is not only a great supporting cast, but elite. Last postseason net rating on/off regarding Joker:

9+ with Jokic on the floor
5.5+ without Jokic

Then you add his non all-star teammate Murray into the equation
+12 with both on the floor
+3 with Murray on, Jokic off
-6 with Jokic on, Murray off

To compare to Steph or Lebron, there's not a single post season in their entire career where their team was a +5 NET on the floor without them, including that 16-1 PS where Steph had KD by his side.

[HotRocks34]

His never-an-allstar teammate averaged 33PPG on 65% TS in a conference finals last postseason on route to a ring. Selective statistics like this sound incredibly empty when you add any semblance of context to it.

And Porter/Gordon have both averaged 20 PPG in playoff series too. It’s not a crap supporting cast, not by any means. Just not a great one.

Not close to great.

Murray is a low-BBIQ, one-way player who doesn't take care of his body (which contributes to injury and limits regular season win totals) and who believes if he shows up for a quarter or a half he did his job. He's also mentally weak as we have seen this series. He's like Fat Luka but not as good.

Porter is talented but can't dribble and usually doesn't try on defense. That's why Booth called him out to the Ringer writer. In fairness, Porter is improving.

Gordon can't shoot and that weakness has led to the new defensive coverages against Jokic with the center guarding Gordon and protecting the rim because Gordon provides no spacing.

The truth is that the roster is flawed and Jokic makes it work. Now that opponents have figured out some ways to limit Jokic by focusing completely on him, the roster flaws are much clearer.

Brown helped a ton. He is missed.

Booth has a lot to do this summer. What is happening now is not a fluke, even though Murray is hurt.

[HotRocks34]

Here is Booth -- himself needing to improve -- on Porter ( I think this was last year):

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2023/10/16/23918200/denver-nuggets-2023-season-preview-dynasty-christian-braun

"I knew you couldn’t have two guys that couldn’t guard (Hyland and Porter), and we couldn’t have two guys that were young and kind of more ‘me guys,’” Booth said. “Mike makes $30 million. He’s one of the best shooters in the NBA. So, Bones, there’s no place for you.”

Booth has a good philosophy on drafting/bringing in young talent IMO but these last two youth classes from him seem short on drivers and ballhandlers, unless Pickett or Gillespie pan out.

The biggest problems on the team right now IMO are playmaking, ballhandling and a backup center.

[Raps in 4]

I only want to bring up the all star argument, because I think that one has some flaws

Why is this the be all end all of help? If you have a great team, but technically not an all star, are you playing with bums? Mo Williams was an injury replacement all star in LeBron's first Cleveland start. If we are just judging based on all star teammates, are we saying the Cavs had a better supporting cast than the Nuggets? It can be argued that Jokic has 2/3 teammates that were better than all of those Cavs teams.

This has been a pain point over the last couple years about "Jokic doesn't even play with any all stars!"

Jamal Murray's career playoff averages are actually kind of nutty - 25/6/5... but he's not an all star. Shouldn't even matter.

Then we need to think about the fact that some players were all stars one year, then joined a team much later. So if Jokic had lets say Al Horford on his team RIGHT NOW. Well he has an all star on his team! What a flawed argument

It's not just All-Stars, he's never had an All-NBA teammate either. Of course that matters. The fact that he won a title with the team he did is a pretty historic feat.

[Raps in 4]

He's easily top-20 already. Putting someone like Malone or Havlicek ahead of him, Giannis, and Kawhi is comical. But, of course, this is a Bill Simmons list. If at least half the players on the list aren't former Celtics, I'd be worried that something is wrong with him. The guy is one of the biggest homers in sports journalism.

[GeorgeSears]

But I read on RealGM that Jokic wasn't "Him", that he's been "heavily overrated", and that he's been "swept" in every series that Murray hasn't played.

This isn't computing.

[MavsDirk41]

His never-an-allstar teammate averaged 33PPG on 65% TS in a conference finals last postseason on route to a ring. Selective statistics like this sound incredibly empty when you add any semblance of context to it.

And Porter/Gordon have both averaged 20 PPG in playoff series too. It’s not a crap supporting cast, not by any means. Just not a great one.

It absolutely is not only a great supporting cast, but elite. Last postseason net rating on/off regarding Joker:

9+ with Jokic on the floor
5.5+ without Jokic

Then you add his non all-star teammate Murray into the equation
+12 with both on the floor
+3 with Murray on, Jokic off
-6 with Jokic on, Murray off

To compare to Steph or Lebron, there's not a single post season in their entire career where their team was a +5 NET on the floor without them, including that 16-1 PS where Steph had KD by his side.

You take Jokic off the floor and Denver looks lost offensively. They were 13-10 without Murray this year starting Reggie Jackson in his place. That team revolves around Jokic same as GS with Curry, Dallas with Luka…..

[HotRocks34]

He's easily top-20 already. Putting someone like Malone or Havlicek ahead of him, Giannis, and Kawhi is comical. But, of course, this is a Bill Simmons list. If at least half the players on the list aren't former Celtics, I'd be worried that something is wrong with him. The guy is one of the biggest homers in sports journalism.

Let's see what Simmons says when he updates the list.

[HotRocks34]

And Porter/Gordon have both averaged 20 PPG in playoff series too. It’s not a crap supporting cast, not by any means. Just not a great one.

It absolutely is not only a great supporting cast, but elite. Last postseason net rating on/off regarding Joker:

9+ with Jokic on the floor
5.5+ without Jokic

Then you add his non all-star teammate Murray into the equation
+12 with both on the floor
+3 with Murray on, Jokic off
-6 with Jokic on, Murray off

To compare to Steph or Lebron, there's not a single post season in their entire career where their team was a +5 NET on the floor without them, including that 16-1 PS where Steph had KD by his side.

You take Jokic off the floor and Denver looks lost offensively. They were 13-10 without Murray this year starting Reggie Jackson in his place. That team revolves around Jokic same as GS with Curry, Dallas with Luka…..

There is no Denver without Jokic. Everything they do is about him.

[HotRocks34]

But I read on RealGM that Jokic wasn't "Him", that he's been "heavily overrated", and that he's been "swept" in every series that Murray hasn't played.

This isn't computing.

Caveat lector.

Reader beware.

[MartyConlonOnTheRun]

Hijacking the thread a bit, but in regards to the Murray discussion….. would you rather have Murray or any of Giannis teammates at the time? Feel Jrue and Midds were only all star due to 2nd best player on a 1-seed. I don’t know how to feel about last year version of Dame.

[HotRocks34]

Hijacking the thread a bit, but in regards to the Murray discussion….. would you rather have Murray or any of Giannis teammates at the time?

I'd take either of them over Murray.

Jrue is a legit two way player.

Middleton is hurt a lot but he's very good when healthy.

Both guys IMO are a lot more mature than Murray is.

[MavsDirk41]

It absolutely is not only a great supporting cast, but elite. Last postseason net rating on/off regarding Joker:

9+ with Jokic on the floor
5.5+ without Jokic

Then you add his non all-star teammate Murray into the equation
+12 with both on the floor
+3 with Murray on, Jokic off
-6 with Jokic on, Murray off

To compare to Steph or Lebron, there's not a single post season in their entire career where their team was a +5 NET on the floor without them, including that 16-1 PS where Steph had KD by his side.

You take Jokic off the floor and Denver looks lost offensively. They were 13-10 without Murray this year starting Reggie Jackson in his place. That team revolves around Jokic same as GS with Curry, Dallas with Luka…..

There is no Denver without Jokic. Everything they do is about him.

Yea its pretty rough watching them without Jokic on the floor. Only Jokic and Murray can create their own shot on a regular basis. But even with Murray on the court Jokic is still their offensive creator.

[NZB2323]

Hijacking the thread a bit, but in regards to the Murray discussion….. would you rather have Murray or any of Giannis teammates at the time? Feel Jrue and Midds were only all star due to 2nd best player on a 1-seed. I don’t know how to feel about last year version of Dame.

The Bucks went 2-0 in the ECF without Giannis. Can you imagine the Nuggets going 2-0 in 2 playoff games without Jokic?

[HotRocks34]

You take Jokic off the floor and Denver looks lost offensively. They were 13-10 without Murray this year starting Reggie Jackson in his place. That team revolves around Jokic same as GS with Curry, Dallas with Luka…..

There is no Denver without Jokic. Everything they do is about him.

Yea its pretty rough watching them without Jokic on the floor. Only Jokic and Murray can create their own shot on a regular basis. But even with Murray on the court Jokic is still their offensive creator.

Murray IMO is basically a shooting guard and Jokic the point guard.

He's improved on distributing, for sure, but his natural inclination is to chuck and he frequently over dribbles.

[MavsDirk41]

There is no Denver without Jokic. Everything they do is about him.

Yea its pretty rough watching them without Jokic on the floor. Only Jokic and Murray can create their own shot on a regular basis. But even with Murray on the court Jokic is still their offensive creator.

Murray IMO is basically a shooting guard and Jokic the point guard.

He's improved on distributing, for sure, but his natural inclination is to chuck and he frequently over dribbles.

Yep said perfectly

[jfs1000d]

I'd be fine with Jokic at 15.

I'd certainly have Dwayne Wade over Isiah Thomas.

Championships
Wade 3
Thomas 2

All-NBA teams
Wade 7
Thomas 5

All defensive teams
Wade 3
Thomas 0

PER
Wade 23.5
Thomas 18.1

VORP
Wade 62.8
Thomas 41.59

WS
Wade 120.7
Thomas 80.7

Playoff PER
Wade 22.4
Thomas 19.8

Playoff VORP
Wade 12.3
Thomas 8.5

Playoff WS
Wade 21.6
Thomas 12.5

And if we compare playoff runs when they won Finals MVP it isn't very close
Wade 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
Thomas 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER

Wade was considered the best player in the world after the 2006 Finals. Thomas was never considered the best player in the world. Wade finished top 3 in MVP voting in 2009, something Thomas never did. Wade was top 10 in MVP voting 7 times; Isiah Thomas was top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.

I'd also have Hakeem and Shaq ahead of West and Oscar. And I'd have Ewing over Pippen.

I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

And I'd have Kareem over Russell.

Excellent write up and I am with you on everything.

Wade > Isaiah
Hakeem, Shaq > Oscar, West
Kareem > Russell
Ewing > Pippen


Isaiah was a bad dude but yeah Wade is better.

I know that the pyramid may be more about careers than talent, but talent matters.

Simmons is a Boston homer so that explains Russell. Even though Bill is of course a great player. But Kareem was a great two way player, at least early in his career.

I didn't see West or Oscar play and I have huge respect for them. But Peak Hakeem and MDE Shaq were two of the most dominant two way forces in league history. If Simmons wants to argue careers there, ok. Maybe.

Ewing without a doubt was a better player than Pippen. Sure one could argue for Pippen 's career but he played with MJ and Ewing didn't.

How on earth is Wade better than Isiah Thomas? What planet you on?

Thomas was the best player on a back-to-back title team and had to play against Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan in his prime.

In fact, Thomas owned Jordan until 1991.

Wade was never the best player on a title team.


Think like this. Who was the last team to beat the Jordan Bulls in a playoff series?

Pistons tortured them in 88,89,90.

Jordan won 91, 92, 93 took 1 3/4 years off and lost when he came back.

But once Jordan reconstituted the Bulls again, they went and won 3 straight after.

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[HotRocks34]

I'd be fine with Jokic at 15.

I'd certainly have Dwayne Wade over Isiah Thomas.

Championships
Wade 3
Thomas 2

All-NBA teams
Wade 7
Thomas 5

All defensive teams
Wade 3
Thomas 0

PER
Wade 23.5
Thomas 18.1

VORP
Wade 62.8
Thomas 41.59

WS
Wade 120.7
Thomas 80.7

Playoff PER
Wade 22.4
Thomas 19.8

Playoff VORP
Wade 12.3
Thomas 8.5

Playoff WS
Wade 21.6
Thomas 12.5

And if we compare playoff runs when they won Finals MVP it isn't very close
Wade 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
Thomas 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER

Wade was considered the best player in the world after the 2006 Finals. Thomas was never considered the best player in the world. Wade finished top 3 in MVP voting in 2009, something Thomas never did. Wade was top 10 in MVP voting 7 times; Isiah Thomas was top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.

I'd also have Hakeem and Shaq ahead of West and Oscar. And I'd have Ewing over Pippen.

I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

And I'd have Kareem over Russell.

Excellent write up and I am with you on everything.

Wade > Isaiah
Hakeem, Shaq > Oscar, West
Kareem > Russell
Ewing > Pippen


Isaiah was a bad dude but yeah Wade is better.

I know that the pyramid may be more about careers than talent, but talent matters.

Simmons is a Boston homer so that explains Russell. Even though Bill is of course a great player. But Kareem was a great two way player, at least early in his career.

I didn't see West or Oscar play and I have huge respect for them. But Peak Hakeem and MDE Shaq were two of the most dominant two way forces in league history. If Simmons wants to argue careers there, ok. Maybe.

Ewing without a doubt was a better player than Pippen. Sure one could argue for Pippen 's career but he played with MJ and Ewing didn't.

How on earth is Wade better than Isiah Thomas? What planet you on?

Thomas was the best player on a back-to-back title team and had to play against Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan in his prime.

In fact, Thomas owned Jordan until 1991.

Wade was never the best player on a title team.

Lord, y’all gotta learn.


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I love Isaiah and I saw his entire career and I respect the heck out of him.

Wade is better.

Better driver, better finisher, better athlete, better defender.

Both are studs. But Wade is better.

They're both Hall of Famers.

[MavsDirk41]

I'd be fine with Jokic at 15.

I'd certainly have Dwayne Wade over Isiah Thomas.

Championships
Wade 3
Thomas 2

All-NBA teams
Wade 7
Thomas 5

All defensive teams
Wade 3
Thomas 0

PER
Wade 23.5
Thomas 18.1

VORP
Wade 62.8
Thomas 41.59

WS
Wade 120.7
Thomas 80.7

Playoff PER
Wade 22.4
Thomas 19.8

Playoff VORP
Wade 12.3
Thomas 8.5

Playoff WS
Wade 21.6
Thomas 12.5

And if we compare playoff runs when they won Finals MVP it isn't very close
Wade 28, 6, and 6, 59.3 TS%, 26.9 PER
Thomas 21, 8, and 6, 56 TS%, 21 PER

Wade was considered the best player in the world after the 2006 Finals. Thomas was never considered the best player in the world. Wade finished top 3 in MVP voting in 2009, something Thomas never did. Wade was top 10 in MVP voting 7 times; Isiah Thomas was top 10 in MVP voting 4 times.

I'd also have Hakeem and Shaq ahead of West and Oscar. And I'd have Ewing over Pippen.

I know Pippen has more championships, but Pippen got to play with Jordan(And Rodman or Horace Grant), and Ewing got to play with John Starks. And we saw what happened when they met and Pippen didn't have Jordan.

GmSc isn't a perfect stat, but it shows that Ewing was clearly better than Pippen in the 1994 series, and he got less help.

Ewing: 18.7
Pippen: 15.6
Grant: 16.2
Armstrong: 12.7
Oakley: 12.1
Starks: 9.8

And that doesn't even take into account Kukoc hitting the game-winning shot while Pippen refused to go into the game.

And I'd have Kareem over Russell.

Excellent write up and I am with you on everything.

Wade > Isaiah
Hakeem, Shaq > Oscar, West
Kareem > Russell
Ewing > Pippen


Isaiah was a bad dude but yeah Wade is better.

I know that the pyramid may be more about careers than talent, but talent matters.

Simmons is a Boston homer so that explains Russell. Even though Bill is of course a great player. But Kareem was a great two way player, at least early in his career.

I didn't see West or Oscar play and I have huge respect for them. But Peak Hakeem and MDE Shaq were two of the most dominant two way forces in league history. If Simmons wants to argue careers there, ok. Maybe.

Ewing without a doubt was a better player than Pippen. Sure one could argue for Pippen 's career but he played with MJ and Ewing didn't.

How on earth is Wade better than Isiah Thomas? What planet you on?

Thomas was the best player on a back-to-back title team and had to play against Larry Bird, Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan in his prime.

In fact, Thomas owned Jordan until 1991.

Wade was never the best player on a title team.


Think like this. Who was the last team to beat the Jordan Bulls in a playoff series?

Pistons tortured them in 88,89,90.

Jordan won 91, 92, 93 took 1 3/4 years off and lost when he came back.

But once Jordan reconstituted the Bulls again, they went and won 3 straight after.

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Who was the best player on the 2006 Miami Heat championship team?

Wade was also the best player on the 2011 Miami Heat team that lost to my Mavs in the finals.

Thomas didnt own Jordan lol. You want to compare their playoff stats when they faced off in the playoffs?