Serious question - can you lower your shoulder and uproot a set defender?

[SweaterBae]

It's not a Jokic thing and it seems weird to make it about him. The banging in the post, displacement of defenders happens every game and never gets called.

[Lockdown504090]

The league has been allowing this forever. The league in general swallows whistled to post players, both the offensive and defensive player. I'm not sure the league has ever been more "basketball physical" in the post than the last decade. It's honestly why we don't see a bit more post play. That generally protects the defense...but Jokic is Jokic.

I hate to be a stickler, but it’s important to note. It wasn’t always like this and the amount of force that the offensive player is allowed to create has steadily crept up for the last 40 years. Guys weren’t able to just steamroll defenders because they weren’t in a legal guarding position with forearms shoulders and elbows like they can now. When shaq began his dominance I think it’s fair to say that the refs started swapping their whistles on some of these calls. Prime Dwight now, wouldn’t be called for as many offensive fouls as he was back then if he was here now

[MoneyTalks41890]

It's all bs anyway if I'm SGA I know it's the playoffs there's no way they're going to foul me out of the game with offensive fouls. So why not initiate the contact on the defender using my elbow giving me an advantage if the defender does nothing I either get a 3 point play or go to the line. It's a win win. It makes me glad he didn't get MVP though and I hope he never does he's a free throw merchant.

Honestly cry more.

[ChipotleWest]

It's all bs anyway if I'm SGA I know it's the playoffs there's no way they're going to foul me out of the game with offensive fouls. So why not initiate the contact on the defender using my elbow giving me an advantage if the defender does nothing I either get a 3 point play or go to the line. It's a win win. It makes me glad he didn't get MVP though and I hope he never does he's a free throw merchant.

Honestly cry more.

Don't need to cry, Mavs are up 2-1 I just call it like I see it.

[ryan in Maine]

If you can't then I don't want you on my team.

[MoneyTalks41890]

It's all bs anyway if I'm SGA I know it's the playoffs there's no way they're going to foul me out of the game with offensive fouls. So why not initiate the contact on the defender using my elbow giving me an advantage if the defender does nothing I either get a 3 point play or go to the line. It's a win win. It makes me glad he didn't get MVP though and I hope he never does he's a free throw merchant.

Honestly cry more.

Don't need to cry, Mavs are up 2-1 I just call it like I see it.

And yet here you are still whining like a baby.

[dhsilv2]

The league has been allowing this forever. The league in general swallows whistled to post players, both the offensive and defensive player. I'm not sure the league has ever been more "basketball physical" in the post than the last decade. It's honestly why we don't see a bit more post play. That generally protects the defense...but Jokic is Jokic.

I hate to be a stickler, but it’s important to note. It wasn’t always like this and the amount of force that the offensive player is allowed to create has steadily crept up for the last 40 years. Guys weren’t able to just steamroll defenders because they weren’t in a legal guarding position with forearms shoulders and elbows like they can now. When shaq began his dominance I think it’s fair to say that the refs started swapping their whistles on some of these calls. Prime Dwight now, wouldn’t be called for as many offensive fouls as he was back then if he was here now

Agree 100%. Though Chuck was getting away with murder before Shaq...so much so they changed the rules because he was just allowed to back down and beat down guys for the entire shot clock. Chuck just didn't have Shaq's size and power.

[BelgradeNugget]

Seeing Joker do this last night, it made me wonder - can you lower your shoulder and uproot a set defender? I thought that was no longer legal. To be clear, he isn't the only one who is or has done it these playoffs.

Can you give us a video to see what specific play are you talking about? Was it in the post, while driving from side to side, was defender set...
When did this type of play, you are refering at, become ilegal?
More details please

[Johnny Firpo]

Seeing Joker do this last night, it made me wonder - can you lower your shoulder and uproot a set defender? I thought that was no longer legal. To be clear, he isn't the only one who is or has done it these playoffs.

The trick is here that "established position" is way more fluid on post ups than it would be on a drive where a defender is literally standing in one place. On post ups, the defender is constantly moving, and in fact, often initiates contact first, so it's a fluid situation.

[whitehops]

i don't know what the letter of the law is but practically it's dependent on:

- how much you lower your shoulder/extend your forearm, and
- how much the defender is dislodged from their position

luka gets into the paint on will because he decelerates to not have a big impact but still pushes his way into the paint. jokic is huge so he just moves guys inch by inch until he gets into position. SGA uses his suddenness and body control to get guys off balance and then use his arms to fight for the extra inches of space.


that all said, i've never understood the language of the rules regarding this. like posting up is literally knocking your defender back from a set position which is usually illegal but somehow fine in the post, maybe because your back is turned and you're not "charging" at them?

[AussieBuck]

Post defenders get away with murder in a way they haven't at any other point in NBA history right now. You can't incidentally touch a jump shooter, can't have feet anywhere near him in case he jumps forward, backward or sideways, can't jump to contest in case he jumps into you etc but for whatever reason you can go nuts openly pushing the hip or whatever of a guy going up for a hook shot like it doesn't count.

If Jokic can get a bit back at the clownish and arbitrary treatment of shot adjudicating depending on where they were taken by getting a little bump in before he's shoved off his shot, good on him.

[Wingy]

Not just the post. Maybe not set per se, but it happens plenty with perimeter players initiating contact and banging a shoulder into a defender that wasn’t making contact. An example I saw was Suggs vs Mitchell 4th quarter in their game 7. Suggs doing a good job moving his feet, no contact occurring, gets the shoulder from Mitchell then moments later it’s a foul on Suggs. It’s a pretty regular play. Not a fan of it. The offense has enough advantages as it is.

[Lockdown504090]

Post defenders get away with murder in a way they haven't at any other point in NBA history right now. You can't incidentally touch a jump shooter, can't have feet anywhere near him in case he jumps forward, backward or sideways, can't jump to contest in case he jumps into you etc but for whatever reason you can go nuts openly pushing the hip or whatever of a guy going up for a hook shot like it doesn't count.

If Jokic can get a bit back at the clownish and arbitrary treatment of shot adjudicating depending on where they were taken by getting a little bump in before he's shoved off his shot, good on him.

There are a things like that in the rules about contact below the the foul line the threshold is higher down there and when your back is to the basket. The rules about jumping to guys and the “ trae you rules” are applicable on moves that start on the perimeter, hence why embiid and derozan been mostly unaffected by the rule changes,

[cupcakesnake]

Section II—By Dribbler

A dribbler shall not (1) charge into an opponent who has established a legal guarding position, or (2) attempt to dribble between two opponents, or (3) attempt to dribble between an opponent and a boundary, where sufficient space is not available for illegal contact to be avoided.

If a defender is able to establish a legal position in the straight line path of the dribbler, the dribbler must avoid contact by changing direction or ending his dribble.

The legal guarding position is hard to define in real time when a dribble drive is going against a moving defender. We know a defender getting their feet set against a charge is obvious, but it becomes way harder to call with 2 forces moving against each other.

We all want the offensive player to be allowed some amount of contact. No one wants to go back to 60s basketball where you couldn't back people down or drive with any force. We like explosive and/or strong players to be able to use their advantages, the question is to what extent.

I ref a little bit and I try to watch the defender when it comes to the block/charge call. Did the defender hold their ground while the offensive player initiated contact, or did they add a little mustard in the form of a shove? Did the defender stay square and force the offensive player to hit the middle of their chest, or did they not manage to stay in front and had to compensate by throw their leg/hip into the offensive player to stop them from easily driving around.

Offensive players should have to find angles to the hoop, not just bulldoze through the middle of the player. When they gain that angle, the defensive player has to defend on that angle, rather than bumping their way back into a squarer guarding position.

It's ridiculously difficult to call, especially in real time. We want to reward good offense and good defense but that's easier said than done.

[Laimbeer]

Seeing Joker do this last night, it made me wonder - can you lower your shoulder and uproot a set defender? I thought that was no longer legal. To be clear, he isn't the only one who is or has done it these playoffs.

Can you give us a video to see what specific play are you talking about? Was it in the post, while driving from side to side, was defender set...
When did this type of play, you are refering at, become ilegal?
More details please

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WqYYjtJlhM4

[BelgradeNugget]

Seeing Joker do this last night, it made me wonder - can you lower your shoulder and uproot a set defender? I thought that was no longer legal. To be clear, he isn't the only one who is or has done it these playoffs.

Can you give us a video to see what specific play are you talking about? Was it in the post, while driving from side to side, was defender set...
When did this type of play, you are refering at, become ilegal?
More details please

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WqYYjtJlhM4

So, you ask a question what is alowed in the post, you single out Jokic as lowering his shoulder, and the best you can do is post a link from NO game, from who knows when

Ok, here is a little school of post play. In the post, players were always alowed to bump defenderes. Not run through them. Defenders are alowed to use hand on offensive players backs, not 2 hands. Nothing ever changed. If you wanted to see what is legal and what not here is a clip.

Watch on YouTube

at 3:39 you have legal post play. Anthony Edwards bumps Justin Holiday 3 times in the post. Legal
at 1:45 you have KAT lower his shoulder into MPJ. Legal? Refs don't call it as ofensive foul nowdays. BTW after that he commits double drible, but they didn't call it
and at 0:56 you kave KAT running through Murray. This was never legal, but refs allowed KAT to do it this time

here are some exemples from Boston-Cavs game of lowering shoulder, but not in the post this time

Watch on YouTube

at 0:19 LaVert goes into White, nothing called,
at 0:33 Tatum goes through Garland nothing called

So I see you had problem with Jokic bumping Valanciunas. Do you have a problem with any play from this playoffs?
Game 4 maybe?

Here is a link

Watch on YouTube

[LaLover11]

If you can push off a Defender for a game winning shot in the Finals... Then yeah a shoulder is allowed